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  1. #31

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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    GC would be a good starting point to copy a fragrance, but it would just be a start.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafoo View Post
    Interesting article in Fashion and Apparel Law Blog that provides an overview on the legal status of copycat fragrances:

    http://www.fashionapparellawblog.com...common-scents/
    The IP issues of perfume formulas is interesting stuff. The 2006 Dutch ruling aside, formulas are protected by trade secrets law, the weaker cousin of patents and copyrights. These 'protections' let you sue an employee for disclosing confidential information but that's about it. If you can reverse engineer a trade secret it is yours free and clear.
    Givaudan and the other big frag companies do this sometimes for older fragrances (There's some article floating around about how the did the Robert Piguet reconstructions) but it required a professional perfumer to interpret the results and they ended up replacing a number of the old ingredients. I've found a few amateur copys of formulas floating around but I've no idea how good they are.
    PS: Did you ever try out that Tabac Blond recipe you posted? Find any other interesting things?

  3. #33

    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kbe View Post
    Perhaps hiring a great nose or two and if possible sniff the original, experiment and ultimately re-create might be even better?
    If you have a problem...and no one else can help...and if you can find them...maybe you can hire the A(lexandria Egypt Perfume store)-TEAM!

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larimar View Post
    Maybe it would be more realistic, in case of Tabac Blond e.g., to take the current extrait and "play around" with castoreum and whatever is available and opportune to achieve the desired effect. Not a scientific approach, I know...
    that will never work.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafoo View Post
    A good and reasoned question, but I suspect the answer is more complicated than one would expect at first blush. I'm not a fragrance chemist, but I am a chemist who has operated GCs for many years. GCs and LCs can tell you the chemical composition and relative amounts of fragrance molecules, but cannot tell you their origin. For example, eugenol is a common fragrance molecule that is present in many (if not the majority) of fragrances. It is available to the perfumer in both pure synthetic form and indirectly as a component of natural extracts. So when a GC reports the presence of eugenol, it can't tell you whether it was added as a single component or as a component in, say, clove extract. Pattern recognition might provide a clue, but then you get into the problem of deconvoluting multiple patterns, many of which may contain common ingredients. In short, GC and LC are good starting points for reverse engineering a fragrance, but It's only just that - a start.
    Perhaps one of the fragrance industry pros on Basenotes can provide more insight on how fragrances are reverse engineered.
    that's right. you could also add elimination.

    but even when you would find out, its rose oil.. is it rose damascena from bulgaria or something from morocco with some ingredients added? how are you going to find the exact oil? probably not. there is a similar problem with chemicals. these molecules might not smell the same as they did decades ago. and a molecule from givaudan might smell different from the same material from iff.

    however, you can get a rough sketch using gq, and some useful ideas on how it was done, if you know a good bit about perfume making. then you can get the overall shape more or less right, but not the exact behavior and details. you will need an good and experienced perfumer (and a bit of cash) to get kind of close to the original. it will likely take many trails (and errors).

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post
    not only you can tell the components, but also de origins of most complex mixtures by the technique known as chemical fingerprinting. Using chemical fingerprinting, analytical chemists can tell you, for instance, if an oil tarball found in the Gulf of Mexico came from the BP blown oil well, or from other spill etc and can tell you if an attar came from India, or China, etc.
    interesting.

    i am no expert in chemical analysis, but i heard about these fingerprints. you know, perfumery ingredients is a rather shady business. these fingerprints, they get faked. they alter a cheap rose oil, until they have the fingerprint of something much, much more expensive. it makes everything very complicated for the buyers. :(

    i would love to hear your comments on this.
    Last edited by gido; 17th October 2010 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafoo View Post
    One such is Aroma Alternatives in Austin TX., which quotes a price of $95/hour, with the following disclaimer: "Depending on the level of difficulty of the product hours and time frame can vary widely and until the development of reverse engineering toward said product starts there will be no idea how long or how many hours it will take to develop said product."
    there are several suppliers that offer this service, i know http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/index.html does it (they have a great site btw which list almost every material that is being on the market with their properties) and www.perfumersworld.com does it as well. i believe they have a fixed price of $100, but you probably just get a sheet with the constituents and their percentages.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Guys, let`s cut it out with quarrels on matters of size: David, as per answers to your question, it is clear chemists and trained noses can reconstruct classics, but... what about production costs? And what about sales: will customers will be eager to pay for reconstructed blends?

    I also love the idea, but to the extent of my knowledge, the are accords in classic scents that many perceive as dated. I had the chance of testing an extensive amount of historical blends and many describe most of them as "old", "dated", "old-lady/man", etc. If I have to describe which notes are the ones to blame, I'd say iris and / or "talcum-powder-like" notes. Even scents available nowadays which are extensively liked by many BNoters are described as "passé", specially those dating from the 1970's / 1980's. To my surprise, synthetic notes common in present-day scents are among accords described as "modern". So the answer would be, "yes, but what for?"

    Simple; I am in love with the idea of launching a line of non-IFRA compliant classic style scents for customers disregarding mainstream fragrances, besides the fact that a bunch of classic fragrances are described as wonderful - it happened to a 11 year old daughter of mine who had the chance of trying a chypre from the 1960s made by a local company and found it amazingly good, the best she had ever smelt so far. So I guess there is a business opportunity around.

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfumeCollector View Post
    First, you have to have the instrumentation, but if I go to a laboratory for such a test, the bill would range between 500 to 1000 bucks.
    Thanks, data for my businessplan!

  9. #39

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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    I can also tell you exactly what will happen if you do duplicate one of these lost classics, if you nail it right on the head, 100% right: the critics -- including those here -- will all say, "It's just not the same," "It's just not as good."

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pollux View Post
    I am in love with the idea of launching a line of non-IFRA compliant classic style scents for customers disregarding mainstream fragrances, besides the fact that a bunch of classic fragrances are described as wonderful - it happened to a 11 year old daughter of mine who had the chance of trying a chypre from the 1960s made by a local company and found it amazingly good, the best she had ever smelt so far. So I guess there is a business opportunity around.
    I think it work and be successful as a niche', small-scale thing.

    If it costs $50,000 to reverse-engineer a fragrance (and you start off with a fairly simple one and hope to finish up for well under 50K$), and if you can sell your product for $100/bottle (which is the ballpark for a niche' fragrance) then you'd need to sell 500 bottles to recoupe the research cost. Can you sell a few thousand bottles? I'd hope so. So, yes, I think it could work. I doubt that it's a get-rich-quick plan, but it could be sustainable.

    Your next big problem will be getting authoratative, properly-preserved samples of the old fragrances to start from.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollnick View Post
    ... Your next big problem will be getting authoratative, properly-preserved samples of the old fragrances to start from.
    That IS a problem; some of the blends I 've got are perfectly well, others havee been altered even though they were stored in the right conditions. To this, I might add that some aromachemicals and / or EO used in the past must have been discontinued.

    However, it does get my attention that local traditional manufacturers houses are launching scents for designers and / or private lables with strong classical character, so I guess there must be an "editorial line" they are following: they are not pressed for these houses do not belong to big mutinationals so they are free to do as they will. That is where my hope lies in... I think that if asked to re do classics I will get a "YES" right from the start. The question being, is gascromatography an option for them?

    Will post about my endeavours...

  12. #42

    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollnick View Post
    If it costs $50,000 to reverse-engineer a fragrance (and you start off with a fairly simple one and hope to finish up for well under 50K$), and if you can sell your product for $100/bottle (which is the ballpark for a niche' fragrance) then you'd need to sell 500 bottles to recoupe the research cost.
    Don't forget about taxes and all the necessary paperwork and fees for doing legal commercial business. Pretty much depends on the country you want to operate from, of course.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zizanioides View Post
    The IP issues of perfume formulas is interesting stuff. The 2006 Dutch ruling aside, formulas are protected by trade secrets law, the weaker cousin of patents and copyrights. These 'protections' let you sue an employee for disclosing confidential information but that's about it. If you can reverse engineer a trade secret it is yours free and clear.
    Givaudan and the other big frag companies do this sometimes for older fragrances (There's some article floating around about how the did the Robert Piguet reconstructions) but it required a professional perfumer to interpret the results and they ended up replacing a number of the old ingredients. I've found a few amateur copys of formulas floating around but I've no idea how good they are.
    PS: Did you ever try out that Tabac Blond recipe you posted? Find any other interesting things?
    I'd love to see an actual production formula for a commercial fragrance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollnick View Post
    I can also tell you exactly what will happen if you do duplicate one of these lost classics, if you nail it right on the head, 100% right: the critics -- including those here -- will all say, "It's just not the same," "It's just not as good."
    At least you could say with conviction that it's a reformulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasenmann View Post
    Don't forget about taxes and all the necessary paperwork and fees for doing legal commercial business. Pretty much depends on the country you want to operate from, of course.
    The beginning of the end of the dream...

    Quote Originally Posted by ohhmygod View Post
    lol this thread is becoming a place to show off :P Keep it simple and straight to the point guys.
    You're right, of course, and I regret getting sidetracked earlier. It's a topic I find deeply interesting and I can get a bit carried away. Much more fun for me than debating what [insert name here] would wear.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. Daniel Moynihan

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Does a gaschromatograph = possible rebirth of a lost legend ?

    I must stress here that my idea was to recreate a small batch of perfume for private usage. Not to start a commercial venture.
    Even the big houses YSL, Dior, etc. have created tiny batches of their original formula perfumes for the Osmothèque museum.
    So it is do-able, even on a very small scale.

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