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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Jock_With_Scents View Post
    The gay community uses 'fag' and 'queer' often to own and take back words used by bigots to 'hurt' gay people. By using it and owning it, the gay community can take the negative out of the words and own them, thus, helping to diffuse the impact of these words when used by bigots.

    I see the use of the n word as just the same. It is used in African American communities to own it and take it away (as a weapon) from racists.
    Yep, that's the other side of the argument. I don't know which side is correct, though I tend to lean on the "counterproductive" side. The way I see it, by adopting derogatory terms, groups do indeed reduce the impact of the words...within their group. But if that group goes on to take extra offense when anyone else uses the word, the word's power to hurt shoots right back up.

    Either way, I still think Mr. Guerlain was old and confused, and let his deeply embedded early-20th century upbringing show through. I find this to be more of an interesting examination of intercultural communication and the power of language than a serious judgement of any persons or companies involved in the comment.

    By treating this as a serious ethical concern, we give that much more legitimacy to racist terms everywhere. By rising above the issue and recognizing it as an invented language intricacy that we empower to cause hurt, we are being constructive.

    I guess that's all I have.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  2. #122

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    This press release from LVMH Benelux was posted on the Guerlain Facebook page:
    La société Guerlain a pris connaissance avec consternation des propos inadmissibles tenus par Jean-Paul Guerlain et les condamne avec énergie.
    Jean-Paul Guerlain, âgé de 73 ans, n'est plus actionnaire de Guerlain depuis 1996. Il n'en est plus le salarié depuis 2002.
    Ses propos sont à l’opposé de la culture, des valeurs et de l’éthique pratiquées par l'entreprise qui promeut la diversité des talents de toutes origines dans le monde entier.


    Translated using Google translator:
    "Guerlain society has learned, with dismay, (of) the objectionable (statements)by Jean-Paul Guerlain and condemns with vigor.
    Jean-Paul Guerlain, aged 73, is no longer a shareholder of Guerlain (s)in(ce) 1996. This(He) is no longer an employee, since 2002.
    His remarks are the opposite of (the) culture, values and ethics practiced by the company that promotes the diversity of talent from all sources worldwide."

  3. #123
    mtgprox05's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post
    ^^ I think racial tension would exist with or without the continued use of the n-word by African-American communities. If the word weren't the flashpoint, something else would be. The word is simply a convenient tool...a tool for causing offense if you're not black; a tool for unity if you're black; and generally a tool that conveniently displays the conflict. That said, I do agree that the strong adoption of the word by black communities in the US (come on, there's no denying this) is probably counterproductive. The word has more legitimacy (given by the community it's used against), relevant cultural meaning, and ability to cause damage than it did 20 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jock_With_Scents View Post
    The gay community uses 'fag' and 'queer' often to own and take back words used by bigots to 'hurt' gay people. By using it and owning it, the gay community can take the negative out of the words and own them, thus, helping to diffuse the impact of these words when used by bigots.

    I see the use of the n word as just the same. It is used in African American communities to own it and take it away (as a weapon) from racists.
    To address both of these points. Good call JWS on the gay community example, that is one I had missed when making my argument. But I still don't agree with the twisting of the word to take negativity out of it. Perhaps it is a viable solution in the short-term, as if to take the weapon out of the hands of bigots (as you say). But viewing its impact over a longer time period, it has effectively kept that word alive and strong instead of allowing it to die along with past generations. I've always maintained that with each new generation the level of hatred, racism, etc. is getting diluted, to the point that it will eventually be gone (that's not to say that new ways for people to differentiate and stereotype others won't take their places). But instead of allowing the passing of generations to naturally erode the pillars of racism, they have in effect helped to maintain it. Again, this is just my opinion, but I can't help but draw inspiration from how other groups have managed to escape most of their past scorn, and why it may or may not be to that same extent with African-Americans.
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  4. #124

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    The whole ironic thing is that when people want to persecute those who they judge to be racist, they never see any shades of grey. They not only want to throw out the baby and the bathwater, but the baby's parents and grandparents as well for good measure.

    God forbid any of you should ever say anything impolitic in 50 years when society is far more sensitive than what it it is today, and find that people want to quietly sweep you into a pantry.
    "He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."-- G.K. Chesterton

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by mtgprox05 View Post
    I've always maintained that with each new generation the level of hatred, racism, etc. is getting diluted, to the point that it will eventually be gone (that's not to say that new ways for people to differentiate and stereotype others won't take their places). But instead of allowing the passing of generations to naturally erode the pillars of racism, they have in effect helped to maintain it.
    So we agree, then!

    Quote Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post
    God forbid any of you should ever say anything impolitic in 50 years when society is far more sensitive than what it it is today, and find that people want to quietly sweep you into a pantry.
    +1
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  6. #126

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I don't think JPG was being mean spirited. He comes from a different time and it slipped out. My grandfather did the same thing. It's wrong, but nothing to get worked up about IMO.

    I am at the stage that too much is going on in the world that I have essentially shut down from caring about any of it; too much hate, too much greed, too much bigotry...our society is overheated...even small issues like this become a stage for everyone to spout their passionate offerings. So much anger and angst...That is why I think a little perfume purchase here or there is essential to my sanity. I just really don't care anymore about things I can't control (thanks TwoRoads)...What JPG said is for him to deal with not me.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    As Arthur Ashe so aptly put: "Racism is such a waste of time!"

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Indie_Guy View Post
    God forbid any of you should ever say anything impolitic in 50 years when society is far more sensitive than what it it is today, and find that people want to quietly sweep you into a pantry.
    I'd much rather people confronted me outright than tolerate me in a condescending, there-there, "he doesn't know better; he's old" way. Leaving aside Mr. Jean-Paul Guerlain himself ( as the verdict seems to be out there ), there are many people who are decades older than him and quite capable of thinking for themselves.; age-related dementia isn't universal. A healthy eighty-year-old is just as capable of being responsible for his or her actions as they were in their youth, sometimes more so. Saying otherwise infantalizes a group all-too often treated that way...

  9. #129

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I am also willing to accept Jean Paul Guerlain's apologies and have decided to move on.

  10. #130
    Lifelong Sniffaholic
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    I am also willing to accept Jean Paul Guerlain's apologies and have decided to move on.
    Ditto

  11. #131

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Not for add oil on the fire but JP Guerlain has already had previously some "colonialists" problems... So just saying it was an accident from an old man is a little too easy imo...
    Here is the document for those who are understanding french (from a french tv based on out continental territories):
    http://www.ina.fr/economie-et-societ...arfums.fr.html

    The document is classified by the official french tv archives...

    Just to translate the purpose:
    "Reportage à Mayotte. Jean Paul GUERLAIN, propriétaire de plantations, a fait l'objet de contrôle de l'inspecteur du travail. Ce dernier lui a adressé des procès verbaux pour emploi de travailleurs clandestins. Le parfumeur est désormais obligé de vendre ses propriétés. Cette perte matérielle est lourde pour l'ile aux parfums. Commentaire sur des images factuelles et interview de Jean Paul GUERLAIN."

    "Reportage from Mayotte. Jean Paul GUERLAIN, a plantations proprietary, was controled by a work Inspector. This one gave him a verbal legal action for the employment of illegals workers. The perfumer is from now constrain to sell his possessions. Commentarys are based on facts and a JPG interview."

  12. #132
    SmellChaser
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    I am also willing to accept Jean Paul Guerlain's apologies and have decided to move on.
    Me too.

  13. #133
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    This press release from LVMH Benelux was posted on the Guerlain Facebook page:
    La société Guerlain a pris connaissance avec consternation des propos inadmissibles tenus par Jean-Paul Guerlain et les condamne avec énergie.
    Jean-Paul Guerlain, âgé de 73 ans, n'est plus actionnaire de Guerlain depuis 1996. Il n'en est plus le salarié depuis 2002.
    Ses propos sont à l’opposé de la culture, des valeurs et de l’éthique pratiquées par l'entreprise qui promeut la diversité des talents de toutes origines dans le monde entier.


    Translated using Google translator:
    "Guerlain society has learned, with dismay, (of) the objectionable (statements)by Jean-Paul Guerlain and condemns with vigor.
    Jean-Paul Guerlain, aged 73, is no longer a shareholder of Guerlain (s)in(ce) 1996. This(He) is no longer an employee, since 2002.
    His remarks are the opposite of (the) culture, values and ethics practiced by the company that promotes the diversity of talent from all sources worldwide."
    Does anyone feel this response by LVMH is inadequate?

  14. #134

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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Ageist assumptions and prejudice must be taken out of the picture. Really. Youth or age is no excuse for racism. My father is 82 now. When he was young, he was a civil rights worker who was arrested in the first open housing demonstration up north and consequently lost his job (as a professor, no less). In his 80s he remains fearlessly antiracist.

    Yet I don't think a boycott based on the ruminations of M. Guerlain is deserved. After all, no one boycotted Chanel, even after Coco's Nazi liaisons.

  15. #135

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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by scentsitivity View Post
    Does anyone feel this response by LVMH is inadequate?
    What do you want them to do? Hire a hitman?

    A person who is not a company employee nor a company shareholder (much less principal) said a few words which were a little politically-incorrect. What can the company do about that? They can't fire him... because he's not an employee. They can't demote him... because he's not an employee.

    What more can they do? In fact, why are they supposed to do anything? Just what, exactly, do you want/expect the company to do? What will make you happy here?

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollnick View Post
    What do you want them to do? Hire a hitman?

    A person who is not a company employee nor a company shareholder (much less principal) said a few words which were a little politically-incorrect. What can the company do about that? They can't fire him... because he's not an employee. They can't demote him... because he's not an employee.

    What more can they do? In fact, why are they supposed to do anything? Just what, exactly, do you want/expect the company to do? What will make you happy here?
    Personally, I don't want them to do anything more. But I am interested in surveying opinions.

    For example, I thought the apology was adequate, but certain organizations think otherwise and legal action is ensuing. So there are different opinions on these matters.

  17. #137

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Enough already! Who has'nt said something inappropriate at one time or another? Raise your hand.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I was mortified and sooo upset by his remarks, but Jean-Paul Guerlain is clearly not well.

    He lost a lot of weight since his last TV shows in 2008, and he does speak more slowly too.

    Destroying the man or boycotting Guerlain would be not only useless, but pretty unfair.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I am disappointed but not surprised by some of the attitudes expressed here. I find the tone of moral self-righteousness and intolerance for different attitudes to be far worse than the comment by Mr. Jean Paul Guerlain.

    I would like to suggest that the term "racist" be specifically defined by the people here throwing it about with such abandon so that we know what we are talking about.
    Last edited by noggs; 20th October 2010 at 03:40 PM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    has anyone really taken a step back and realize that he wasnt using that term to put people of a certain race in a derogatory way?

    does everyone have to get along with the US's sensitivities or else they're evil and they're discriminatory?

    does context even matter to anyone anymore these days? as long as the word is there?

    there's many episodes of Tom and Jerry where jerry was painted with shoe polish and made to dance etc. So s that cartoon racist now and should the films be burnt?

    after going thru 3 pages of this thread and i'm tired of seeing people that express their anger over the quote just because some are, like lemmings.And they're not even black.

    But i like what's going on in this page: so what the old man had a slip of the tongue. It was not like he wanted to put down a certain race. Why is it a big deal? coz the media said so. and we're supposed to believe whatever the media tells us without even taking into consideration the context.

    so if someone placed expletives in the subtitles we're supposed to believe that was what really he said? i guess my expectations were too high on this forum...or some of its members

    oh well, we need some drama in the perfume industry anyways.

    im not surprised if a week later Jean Paul Guerlain commits suicide.

    adieu, mon.
    Last edited by joey86; 20th October 2010 at 03:58 PM. Reason: topnotes added

  21. #141

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Whether it was a case of racism or dementia, we'll never know for sure (unless there is evidence of such outwardly behaviour throughout his career). Should we boycott all Guerlain fragrances? We most certainly could. But what about other high-profile perfumers, who are bona fide racists, whose creations we continue to buy based on the fact that they've been clever enough to keep their mouths shut?

    Racism is a very complex issue and he was simply a prat...

  22. #142

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
    im not surprised if a week later Jean Paul Guerlain commits suicide.
    adieu, mon.
    Please, don't even suggest this - it would be a tragedy of the first order.

  23. #143

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Therese View Post
    Ageist assumptions and prejudice must be taken out of the picture. Really. Youth or age is no excuse for racism. My father is 82 now. When he was young, he was a civil rights worker who was arrested in the first open housing demonstration up north and consequently lost his job (as a professor, no less). In his 80s he remains fearlessly antiracist.

    Yet I don't think a boycott based on the ruminations of M. Guerlain is deserved. After all, no one boycotted Chanel, even after Coco's Nazi liaisons.
    Bravo, I was waiting for someone to bring this up! The Nazi lover was not included in the recent biopic of her life.

    I personally think LVHM's response was adequate. It was clear M. Guerlain was not making these comments in behalf of the company.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  24. #144
    rickbr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrose View Post
    Bravo, I was waiting for someone to bring this up! The Nazi lover was not included in the recent biopic of her life.

    I personally think LVHM's response was adequate. It was clear M. Guerlain was not making these comments in behalf of the company.
    And if we are including nazism in the topic, there`s also Loreal liasons with nazism too...

  25. #145
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    And Louis Vuitton...

  26. #146
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    And what intrigues me is that, if we are talking about racism, why does no one raised the question of genocide and slavery between different African Tribes inside their own continent?

  27. #147
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by rickbr View Post
    And what intrigues me is that, if we are talking about racism, why does no one raised the question of genocide and slavery between different African Tribes inside their own continent?
    Believe me, if Robert Mugabe Pour Homme came out, I wouldn't be happy about that, either...

  28. #148

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Hugo Boss made WW2 Nazi SS uniforms so add them to the boycott list too

  29. #149

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Therese View Post
    Yet I don't think a boycott based on the ruminations of M. Guerlain is deserved. After all, no one boycotted Chanel, even after Coco's Nazi liaisons.
    I'm sure that there are people that avoid Chanel products because of Mme. Chanel's desperate, unscrupulous survival choices. Did she have regrets about her choices? Perhaps she did, as Chanel's first, post-war fragrance was named Cynique.
    I make personal, existential choices about not supporting companies that I feel promote intolerance and exploitation of the poor. I feel that one can make a personal protest by limiting their patronage/exposure to companies that one does not feel comfortable without having to join a group protest.

  30. #150

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    I'm sure that there are people that avoid Chanel products because of Mme. Chanel's desperate, unscrupulous survival choices. Did she have regrets about her choices? Perhaps she did, as Chanel's first, post-war fragrance was named Cynique.
    I make personal, existential choices about not supporting companies that I feel promote intolerance and exploitation of the poor. I feel that one can make a personal protest by limiting their patronage/exposure to companies that one does not feel comfortable without having to join a group protest.
    Good point, Kevin.

    In order to survive in an occupied country, some had no choice but to collaborate. Thank you for the perfume history.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  31. #151

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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I wrote to guerlain asking for their reaction and they sent an excellent message disassociating themselves clearly from the comments and sentiments.
    A good response.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  32. #152

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I wrote to guerlain asking for their reaction and they sent an excellent message disassociating themselves clearly from the comments and sentiments.
    A good response.
    Can you please share this with us? Thanks.

  33. #153

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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Can you please share this with us? Thanks.
    Not the whole thing as it is a personal communication but I believe in essence it is similar to their public statements - here is a significant excerpt:

    "Guerlain SA Company has expressed its dismay at Jean-Paul Guerlain’s intolerable statements. Guerlain SA Company condemns them vigorously in an official press release sent on Tuesday. Jean-Paul Guerlain’s statements stand in contradiction with the culture, the values and the ethic of our firm which encourages and promotes diversity of talents all over the world.

    We hope to regain your trust soon."

    This, in my opinion, is what was required. A strong public condemnation of racism and the statements.
    I think many people missed the point in this discussion which was not to vilify and old man (senile or not, racist or not), but to publically redress and reverse the succour possibly provided to the organised racists who may benefit from this type of statement and to strongly discourage any whose confidence may have been raised.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  34. #154
    LiveJazz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    It's good to see that they're accepting responsibility and acknowledging that people were hurt...it may not in fact be their responsibility to take, but perception is reality, and they see that many consumers were offended. Someone whose name is intimately related to the company said something bad. They aren't beating around that bush, and that's the best damage control.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  35. #155

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    ".......We hope to regain your trust soon."
    This is a very nice touch. LVMH certainly handled this problem very satisfactorily. Hirch, I personally want to thank you for starting this thread, it encouraged so many Basenotes members to speak their minds.

  36. #156
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    On reading Hirch's mail and reading Guerlain's public announcement, I'm happy with how this turned out all in all.

    I feel they've done the right thing in distancing themselves from his comments, but given that Jean-Paul Guerlain is no longer directly involved in the company, there's not more needed than this and replies to concerned customers like Hirch.

    I'm glad there was an outcry, but I find the company's response perfectly acceptable.

  37. #157

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    and condemning someone blindly over some innocently racist comments is apparently very classy and very just? i dont get it at all.

    I'm glad that there is an outcry as now i see how people work.

    The other mystery is why some of us are not even black but feel so strongly over this? It's mind boggling. Is it a need to appear to be tolerant? I dont get it at all.

    What would be racist is if Jean-Paul Guerlain would say "slavery? nah. did it exist? no they were just here for a vacation. What slavery?" or "they should work for us for free! ungrateful!" An outcry over those comments would be so much more justified and reasonable, rather than people who pick on a certain angle and refuse to see the bigger picture and then harp on it. What happens when you see the bigger picture? where's the racism now?

    Civilized? no. Open minded? no. Myopic and getting some sort of high as an e-crusader? maybe.

    can someone help me understand what is really going on?

  38. #158

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Excuse me? We are talking about a human being here... and he has since apologized. Just because you do not like a person's comments... no matter how offensive they are, doesn't mean the entire family and business is behind him. He's not a shareholder for the company, and isn't involved anymore. I didn't like Paris Hilton showing her crotch here and there, but her perfume still sold. People make mistakes... and I don't think anyone should be so simply sensitive over every little thing. There are bigger issues in the world. This is not serious.

  39. #159
    LiveJazz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    aaaaaaaaand back to square one.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  40. #160

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Hirsch: Good man yerself. Job done.



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  41. #161
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!

  42. #162

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggie View Post
    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!
    Excellent post!

  43. #163
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggie View Post
    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!
    No, I`m not being sarcastic at all. I find intriguing that the discussion was distorted through the unfortunate comments that Jean Paul Guerlain made to a kind of witch hunt. Maybe you should read all the discussion before making your comment. He made an unfortunate statement, was punished, Guerlain and LVMH expressed that they don`t agree with this, so i think is ridiculous the moralism path that the discussion has followed. I just raised the question to show that racism is not something specific, and i`m not denying that it happens here, maybe you understand more in my comments than you should have. Maybe you should study better African History, to see that the slavery and genocide happened in Africa also before Europe colonization, and in fact the problem of different ethnicities not united helped the absurd and horrible exploration that devastated a beautiful and rich continent.
    And if you`re send a link of channel Globo, although one of the most watched channels, it`s known here for not showing the reality at all, as it happens with massive media around the world. It seemed that you just raised an argument because you feel the necessity of raising one.

  44. #164
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Jean-Paul should be thankful that Guerlain dissociated from him. Does he really want to be responsible for the crap they made with his vintage colognes? While IFRA was able to remove oakmoss from former masterpieces it wasn't successfull to remove "human stains" from normal human beings. Even the pope, for some God's deputy on earth, had Nazi history... And then...what a shame for a "free society" to recoil from quoting him correctly ("nigger") by substituting it with "racial epithet".

  45. #165
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux View Post
    And then...what a shame for a "free society" to recoil from quoting him correctly ("nigger") by substituting it with "racial epithet".
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".

  46. #166
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    This is indeed correct, "nègre" is more or less historically concomitant with the use of "Negro" in the English language.

    Meanwhile, for the purpose of fulfilling Goodwin's law early, where are the boycott threads on Basenotes for Hugo Boss? After all, the house was responsible for designing the Nazis' uniforms.

  47. #167
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    This is indeed correct, "nègre" is more or less historically concomitant with the use of "Negro" in the English language.

    Meanwhile, for the purpose of fulfilling Goodwin's law early, where are the boycott threads on Basenotes for Hugo Boss? After all, the house was responsible for designing the Nazis' uniforms.

  48. #168

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    It's wrong...

    I don't see the rapport with LVMH in this thread, they have nothing to do with the Guerlain family... JPG is simply racist (and he was before getting old!) that's all...

  49. #169

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does. Jean Paul Guerlain's two sentences raise issues that are much more complicated than the mass media can ever hope to represent truthfully. The media has chosen to present it in its lowest common denominator: someone said a forbidden word in public and must be punished for it.
    I find the meaning expressed by Jean Paul Guerlain's words to be one and the same as the one that is implied by certain Tea Party members when they complain that President Obama takes too many golf vacations. Why doesn't the media call them out like they did with Guerlain?

  50. #170
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does. Jean Paul Guerlain's two sentences raise issues that are much more complicated than the mass media can ever hope to represent truthfully. The media has chosen to present it in its lowest common denominator: someone said a forbidden word in public and must be punished for it.
    I agree on this. To me, even if the term used had been something like "French citizens of African descent" or some other completely inoffensive way of phrasing it, it's the sentiments involved that are the most troubling, rather than the word itself.

  51. #171

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does.
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir"). Plus it's all the sentence he said, who was even MORE pejorative and colonialist: travailler comme un négre, working as a nigger... It's a totally colonialist expression who refers directly to slavery.

  52. #172

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Tea Party
    So it's racist to protest the government for governing directly against the will of the people? Thanks for the civics lesson.
    "He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."-- G.K. Chesterton

  53. #173

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)

  54. #174

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)
    There is a funny irony there.

    Still, your English is better than my French, but I'm working on it!
    "He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."-- G.K. Chesterton

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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir"). Plus it's all the sentence he said, who was even MORE pejorative and colonialist: travailler comme un négre, working as a nigger... It's a totally colonialist expression who refers directly to slavery.
    Thank you for the explanation.

  56. #176

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir")..............
    Over the years I've seen, in numerous French patisseries, printed signs hanging over a round, chocolate covered marshmallow confection called the tête de nègre, or by using Mon-Petit and the media's translation: nigger head.
    (Notice that the price is in Euros, not French Francs, so the photo is relatively recent.)
    Have these been outlawed yet? Will a shop owner be arrested for selling a pastry by this name?
    A Google search of French web-sites finds the name is still in use. Here's just one of them: http://www.recettes-et-terroirs.com/recette_detail-0-1328.html

    I also did a little research on the internet and it seems that many different nationalities have/had racist named versions of that same, infamous French confection:
    The Danish: negerbolle (Negro bun) or negerkys (Negro kiss)
    The Dutch: Negerzoenen (Negro kisses)
    The Germans: Negerkuss (Negro's Kiss)
    The Columbians: Beso De Negra (Black Woman's Kiss)
    The Flemish: Negerinnentetten (Negress tits) - Whoa!
    The Jews: Kushi (Hebrew:כושי, "negro")
    The Lebanese: ras el abd (slave's head)
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 21st October 2010 at 10:07 PM.

  57. #177

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I have removed my digressions in the spirit of STAYING ON TOPIC. My apologies to everyone here.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 22nd October 2010 at 09:48 PM.

  58. #178

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Wow, that's a stretch.
    A bigger stretch than it being racist for getting on Obama about his incessant golfing? I guess neither of us can make the other's connection.

    I think we've all done a pretty good job on this thread of not bringing in other hot-button political issues-- probably one reason this thread is sailing suprising smoothly amidst the potential icebergs. I just cannot let it slide when people infer that tea partiers are racist, because 1.) It has no basis in fact and 2.) a myth repeated enough becomes fact to a lot of people. I know the tea party. I am the tea party. I know you weren't calling all tea partiers racist, but I feel like it's very hard sometimes to prove a negative, and if one is not vigilant about defending one's own good name, people will often believe the worst.

    As to your recipe for Tete de Negre-- it reminded me of something else. When we were kids, growing up out in the country, wild mushrooms were called "peckerheads" and Brazil nuts were referred to as "nigger toes" by the older folks. The language was just very casual-- and even if those terms are offensive, they're still colorful metaphors and in some poetic sense, who can really get all worked up over that? We don't nowadays use those terms but it's not worth spitting on grandpa's grave over it.

    The really cringeworthy trainwrecks occur sometimes when people are trying so hard to be overly sensitive. For example, my brother was off at college and was hanging around some friends at a party. My brother was saying he was going to make some monkey bread for breakfast the next day. One of his friends looked around and saw a black guy standing there-- he got nervous and said, "Wow. 'monkey bread'? Don't you think that's kind of racist?" At that point, a harmless conversation got REALLY awkward. There was (as far as anyone knows) no racist connotation to the origin of the word "monkey bread", but my brother's friend, in an attempt to deflect what he thought was a racist term, turned a harmless word into an extremely offensive landmine. My brother said it was one of the most embarrassing things he'd ever witnessed.
    "He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative."-- G.K. Chesterton

  59. #179
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
    .............can someone help me understand what is really going on?
    People spinning their wheels.

  60. #180
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quite unfortunate, but nothing I was too upset by. If he went off into a sort of racist tirade, then that's a whole different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    "We hope to regain your trust soon."
    "Give me a bottle of L'instant de Guerlain Pour Homme eau Extreme, and I will put this ordeal behind me forever.

    Seriously considering the boycott of your company for all of time,

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