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  1. #151

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I wrote to guerlain asking for their reaction and they sent an excellent message disassociating themselves clearly from the comments and sentiments.
    A good response.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

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  2. #152

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I wrote to guerlain asking for their reaction and they sent an excellent message disassociating themselves clearly from the comments and sentiments.
    A good response.
    Can you please share this with us? Thanks.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Can you please share this with us? Thanks.
    Not the whole thing as it is a personal communication but I believe in essence it is similar to their public statements - here is a significant excerpt:

    "Guerlain SA Company has expressed its dismay at Jean-Paul Guerlain’s intolerable statements. Guerlain SA Company condemns them vigorously in an official press release sent on Tuesday. Jean-Paul Guerlain’s statements stand in contradiction with the culture, the values and the ethic of our firm which encourages and promotes diversity of talents all over the world.

    We hope to regain your trust soon."

    This, in my opinion, is what was required. A strong public condemnation of racism and the statements.
    I think many people missed the point in this discussion which was not to vilify and old man (senile or not, racist or not), but to publically redress and reverse the succour possibly provided to the organised racists who may benefit from this type of statement and to strongly discourage any whose confidence may have been raised.
    "Don’t try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. ” - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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  4. #154

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    It's good to see that they're accepting responsibility and acknowledging that people were hurt...it may not in fact be their responsibility to take, but perception is reality, and they see that many consumers were offended. Someone whose name is intimately related to the company said something bad. They aren't beating around that bush, and that's the best damage control.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  5. #155

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    ".......We hope to regain your trust soon."
    This is a very nice touch. LVMH certainly handled this problem very satisfactorily. Hirch, I personally want to thank you for starting this thread, it encouraged so many Basenotes members to speak their minds.

  6. #156
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    On reading Hirch's mail and reading Guerlain's public announcement, I'm happy with how this turned out all in all.

    I feel they've done the right thing in distancing themselves from his comments, but given that Jean-Paul Guerlain is no longer directly involved in the company, there's not more needed than this and replies to concerned customers like Hirch.

    I'm glad there was an outcry, but I find the company's response perfectly acceptable.

  7. #157

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    and condemning someone blindly over some innocently racist comments is apparently very classy and very just? i dont get it at all.

    I'm glad that there is an outcry as now i see how people work.

    The other mystery is why some of us are not even black but feel so strongly over this? It's mind boggling. Is it a need to appear to be tolerant? I dont get it at all.

    What would be racist is if Jean-Paul Guerlain would say "slavery? nah. did it exist? no they were just here for a vacation. What slavery?" or "they should work for us for free! ungrateful!" An outcry over those comments would be so much more justified and reasonable, rather than people who pick on a certain angle and refuse to see the bigger picture and then harp on it. What happens when you see the bigger picture? where's the racism now?

    Civilized? no. Open minded? no. Myopic and getting some sort of high as an e-crusader? maybe.

    can someone help me understand what is really going on?

  8. #158

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Excuse me? We are talking about a human being here... and he has since apologized. Just because you do not like a person's comments... no matter how offensive they are, doesn't mean the entire family and business is behind him. He's not a shareholder for the company, and isn't involved anymore. I didn't like Paris Hilton showing her crotch here and there, but her perfume still sold. People make mistakes... and I don't think anyone should be so simply sensitive over every little thing. There are bigger issues in the world. This is not serious.

  9. #159

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    aaaaaaaaand back to square one.
    "It's not what you look like when you're doing what you're doing; it's what you're doing when you're doing what you look like you're doing."

  10. #160

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Hirsch: Good man yerself. Job done.



    "We hope to regain your trust - and your money -soon."
    Reformulation without information is fraud. Call the police.

  11. #161

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!

  12. #162

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggie View Post
    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!
    Excellent post!

  13. #163
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Fraggie View Post
    Hi,

    I hope you where being sarcastic. We are discussing a matter that's making news in France on which Mr.Guerlain is being condemned from left, right, young, old, famous, non famous, black, grey, blue, white French nationals.

    A high profiled French national publicly insulted a group of his fellow nationals. The comments are now being slammed in his own country.

    France has still some colonial sentiments and skeletons in their historical closet among it's elder generation.

    I also love Brazil, been there, travelled around, studied the amazing history, complex diversity. It also has major racial issues that's' not being discussed or broken down in Brazilian society due its sensitivity. Racism has famously been denied and hidden as social class phenomenon.

    http://www.brazzil.com/component/con...2007/9781.html

    Don't take it personally. I just get put off a bit when some of my Brazilian friends feels urge to voice their opinion on slavery, since it's not directly unresolved issue in their own backyard.

    When commenting on Africa one has to be specific. It's worlds second largest continent of 54 countries and more then 1 billion people, 2 000 different languages, variety of religions.

    Trough in some slave trade, massive European colonization, exploitations, religious missionaries, boarder disputes, political interference, external influx of military arms, oil, precious metals, diamonds and VOILÀ historical recipe for conflicts.

    Peace!
    No, I`m not being sarcastic at all. I find intriguing that the discussion was distorted through the unfortunate comments that Jean Paul Guerlain made to a kind of witch hunt. Maybe you should read all the discussion before making your comment. He made an unfortunate statement, was punished, Guerlain and LVMH expressed that they don`t agree with this, so i think is ridiculous the moralism path that the discussion has followed. I just raised the question to show that racism is not something specific, and i`m not denying that it happens here, maybe you understand more in my comments than you should have. Maybe you should study better African History, to see that the slavery and genocide happened in Africa also before Europe colonization, and in fact the problem of different ethnicities not united helped the absurd and horrible exploration that devastated a beautiful and rich continent.
    And if you`re send a link of channel Globo, although one of the most watched channels, it`s known here for not showing the reality at all, as it happens with massive media around the world. It seemed that you just raised an argument because you feel the necessity of raising one.

  14. #164
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Jean-Paul should be thankful that Guerlain dissociated from him. Does he really want to be responsible for the crap they made with his vintage colognes? While IFRA was able to remove oakmoss from former masterpieces it wasn't successfull to remove "human stains" from normal human beings. Even the pope, for some God's deputy on earth, had Nazi history... And then...what a shame for a "free society" to recoil from quoting him correctly ("nigger") by substituting it with "racial epithet".

  15. #165
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by DesGrieux View Post
    And then...what a shame for a "free society" to recoil from quoting him correctly ("nigger") by substituting it with "racial epithet".
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".

  16. #166
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    This is indeed correct, "nègre" is more or less historically concomitant with the use of "Negro" in the English language.

    Meanwhile, for the purpose of fulfilling Goodwin's law early, where are the boycott threads on Basenotes for Hugo Boss? After all, the house was responsible for designing the Nazis' uniforms.

  17. #167
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    This is indeed correct, "nègre" is more or less historically concomitant with the use of "Negro" in the English language.

    Meanwhile, for the purpose of fulfilling Goodwin's law early, where are the boycott threads on Basenotes for Hugo Boss? After all, the house was responsible for designing the Nazis' uniforms.

  18. #168

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    It's wrong...

    I don't see the rapport with LVMH in this thread, they have nothing to do with the Guerlain family... JPG is simply racist (and he was before getting old!) that's all...

  19. #169

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    My understanding is that "nègre" in French is the equivalent of Negro/black, not of "n****r".
    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does. Jean Paul Guerlain's two sentences raise issues that are much more complicated than the mass media can ever hope to represent truthfully. The media has chosen to present it in its lowest common denominator: someone said a forbidden word in public and must be punished for it.
    I find the meaning expressed by Jean Paul Guerlain's words to be one and the same as the one that is implied by certain Tea Party members when they complain that President Obama takes too many golf vacations. Why doesn't the media call them out like they did with Guerlain?

  20. #170
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does. Jean Paul Guerlain's two sentences raise issues that are much more complicated than the mass media can ever hope to represent truthfully. The media has chosen to present it in its lowest common denominator: someone said a forbidden word in public and must be punished for it.
    I agree on this. To me, even if the term used had been something like "French citizens of African descent" or some other completely inoffensive way of phrasing it, it's the sentiments involved that are the most troubling, rather than the word itself.

  21. #171

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Maybe someone French can post/explain what kind of social baggage the word nègre carries. I am not so convinced that it has the same meaning as "nigger" either, but the media has decided it does.
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir"). Plus it's all the sentence he said, who was even MORE pejorative and colonialist: travailler comme un négre, working as a nigger... It's a totally colonialist expression who refers directly to slavery.

  22. #172

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Tea Party
    So it's racist to protest the government for governing directly against the will of the people? Thanks for the civics lesson.

  23. #173

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)

  24. #174

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)
    There is a funny irony there.

    Still, your English is better than my French, but I'm working on it!

  25. #175
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir"). Plus it's all the sentence he said, who was even MORE pejorative and colonialist: travailler comme un négre, working as a nigger... It's a totally colonialist expression who refers directly to slavery.
    Thank you for the explanation.

  26. #176

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    I'm going out of this topic, the americans seems to learn french by therselfs, or hear what they want to hear ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon-Petit View Post
    It is simple un nègre is a nigger, a pejorative term (for less pejorative we use "un noir")..............
    Over the years I've seen, in numerous French patisseries, printed signs hanging over a round, chocolate covered marshmallow confection called the tête de nègre, or by using Mon-Petit and the media's translation: nigger head.
    (Notice that the price is in Euros, not French Francs, so the photo is relatively recent.)
    Have these been outlawed yet? Will a shop owner be arrested for selling a pastry by this name?
    A Google search of French web-sites finds the name is still in use. Here's just one of them: http://www.recettes-et-terroirs.com/recette_detail-0-1328.html

    I also did a little research on the internet and it seems that many different nationalities have/had racist named versions of that same, infamous French confection:
    The Danish: negerbolle (Negro bun) or negerkys (Negro kiss)
    The Dutch: Negerzoenen (Negro kisses)
    The Germans: Negerkuss (Negro's Kiss)
    The Columbians: Beso De Negra (Black Woman's Kiss)
    The Flemish: Negerinnentetten (Negress tits) - Whoa!
    The Jews: Kushi (Hebrew:כושי, "negro")
    The Lebanese: ras el abd (slave's head)
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 21st October 2010 at 10:07 PM.

  27. #177

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    I have removed my digressions in the spirit of STAYING ON TOPIC. My apologies to everyone here.
    Last edited by Kevin Guyer; 22nd October 2010 at 09:48 PM.

  28. #178

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    Wow, that's a stretch.
    A bigger stretch than it being racist for getting on Obama about his incessant golfing? I guess neither of us can make the other's connection.

    I think we've all done a pretty good job on this thread of not bringing in other hot-button political issues-- probably one reason this thread is sailing suprising smoothly amidst the potential icebergs. I just cannot let it slide when people infer that tea partiers are racist, because 1.) It has no basis in fact and 2.) a myth repeated enough becomes fact to a lot of people. I know the tea party. I am the tea party. I know you weren't calling all tea partiers racist, but I feel like it's very hard sometimes to prove a negative, and if one is not vigilant about defending one's own good name, people will often believe the worst.

    As to your recipe for Tete de Negre-- it reminded me of something else. When we were kids, growing up out in the country, wild mushrooms were called "peckerheads" and Brazil nuts were referred to as "nigger toes" by the older folks. The language was just very casual-- and even if those terms are offensive, they're still colorful metaphors and in some poetic sense, who can really get all worked up over that? We don't nowadays use those terms but it's not worth spitting on grandpa's grave over it.

    The really cringeworthy trainwrecks occur sometimes when people are trying so hard to be overly sensitive. For example, my brother was off at college and was hanging around some friends at a party. My brother was saying he was going to make some monkey bread for breakfast the next day. One of his friends looked around and saw a black guy standing there-- he got nervous and said, "Wow. 'monkey bread'? Don't you think that's kind of racist?" At that point, a harmless conversation got REALLY awkward. There was (as far as anyone knows) no racist connotation to the origin of the word "monkey bread", but my brother's friend, in an attempt to deflect what he thought was a racist term, turned a harmless word into an extremely offensive landmine. My brother said it was one of the most embarrassing things he'd ever witnessed.

  29. #179
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    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by joey86 View Post
    .............can someone help me understand what is really going on?
    People spinning their wheels.

  30. #180

    Default Re: Jean Paul Guerlain racist comments - DON'T BUY GUERLAIN

    Quite unfortunate, but nothing I was too upset by. If he went off into a sort of racist tirade, then that's a whole different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    "We hope to regain your trust soon."
    "Give me a bottle of L'instant de Guerlain Pour Homme eau Extreme, and I will put this ordeal behind me forever.

    Seriously considering the boycott of your company for all of time,

    Tim"
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