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  1. #1

    Default Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    I have decided not to go into aromachemicals. Since there are not fruit essential oils, could use natural organic flavors instead for peach, pomegranate, coconut, raspberry notes, etc.??
    Les parfums, les couleurs et les sons se rťpondent (Charles Baudelaire)

    The odours do not have a sex. Nothing is prohibited in a perfume provided that it gets pleasures! (Jacques Cavallier)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Flavours are usually water soluble and so of no use in Perfumery. What's wrong with aromachemicals?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    All the fruit smells you mentioned can only be created with any accuracy by means of chemicals.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Another problem with using fruit flavors would be that they are weak compared to oils used in perfumery. And would they contain sugar (I don't know).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    You could maybe try to macerate the fruit in a fat. Or to gently cook in water. Then strain and add to perfumers alcohol. It might work.
    Last edited by treatthyself; 26th May 2012 at 04:30 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argane View Post
    I have decided not to go into aromachemicals. Since there are not fruit essential oils, could use natural organic flavors instead for peach, pomegranate, coconut, raspberry notes, etc.??
    As David says many flavours will be no use because they are water soluble, and or too weak. Worse many are permitted as flavourings but not suitable for use in perfume (because they cause problems when used on the skin). You canít assume that because something is safe to eat itís safe to use in a fragrance.

    If you want to re-create fruit scents, the best way to do it is to research the chemical components of the natural scent (look for GC-MS and especially headspace analyses) and then put that together with aroma-chemicals: if you want to avoid synthetics, many of these are available as natural isolates so you donít have to sacrifice your commitment to natural perfumery to do it.

    One final thought: at the BSP symposium this year we were introduced to some new materials, one of which was an Apple Essential Oil - a world first I believe - which is made from waste products of the cider and apple-juice industries. It really does smell of apple too. The only downside is itís quite heavily restricted by IFRA.

    There could well be other fruit oils that exist now too, though I would advocate caution as there are unscrupulous suppliers about who will claim that fragrance oils made entirely from synthetics are natural fruit oils. Itís something Iíll be researching myself as soon as I have some free time to do so.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Hmm conjures thoughts of apple and cinnamon type dessert scents!

  8. #8
    4160Tuesdays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    I'd like to recommend Hermitage's raspberry leaf absolute as the jammiest fruity scent I've found. I don't really want to tell you all, because I want it for myself, but since you ask...
    Then there's buchu, which smells like blackcurrant but use only the TINIEST amount as it stinks like cat pee if you're not careful. I've screwed up a nice blend by accidentally overestimating the amount I needed. Hermitage also stock that one. It's not cheap but a little goes a long way.
    As for coconut, pomegranate and peach, if anyone tells you they've made a natural fragrance that smells of those, they are mistaken, or misleading you.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4160Tuesdays View Post
    I'd like to recommend Hermitage's raspberry leaf absolute as the jammiest fruity scent I've found. I don't really want to tell you all, because I want it for myself, but since you ask...
    Then there's buchu, which smells like blackcurrant but use only the TINIEST amount as it stinks like cat pee if you're not careful. I've screwed up a nice blend by accidentally overestimating the amount I needed. Hermitage also stock that one. It's not cheap but a little goes a long way.
    As for coconut, pomegranate and peach, if anyone tells you they've made a natural fragrance that smells of those, they are mistaken, or misleading you.
    I agree with this almost entirely, but would offer these cautions / additional thoughts:

    The raspberry leaf absolute is the Devilís own job to get into solution. I struggled with it even with the variety of solvents I tried - 4160Tuesdays if you found a good solvent for it Iíd very much like to know what it was!

    I have a sample of a natural isolate that arrived just this week - gamma-Octalactone - which smells decidedly of coconut. I can imagine producing some very good effects with this in a natural fragrance (though Iíve not yet had a chance to try it out as Iím inundated with samples and have no time to play with them).

    The same company that supplied it lists something called Peach mercaptan (mainly used in flavouring) as well as so-called Aldehyde C14 (both are natural isolates) and again I can imagine making a successful natural peach accord using these.

    At the moment none of these is available in anything less than a kilo so not very practical for most DIY folk, but Iím looking into that problem too.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  10. #10
    4160Tuesdays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Well, the raspberry leaf absolute story. Yes, tricky.
    I have a very small electric blanket that the cat sleeps on. It's technically a pillow warmer. I found that if I roll it around the jar to warm up the sticky, jammy absolute until it's hot and pours pretty well, I can at least get it into the mistral alcohol. Then I just stir and stir for hours in between doing other jobs. And finally, it dissolves - enough to give me a reasonable solution.
    I love the smell so much that I will go to stupid lengths to keep using it. And you know, I'd almost forgotten how hard it was, because once I smell it all the effort just seems to disappear in a deep green raspberry-jammy liquid.
    If my scents do ever go commercial, that particular one won't be going into production.

  11. #11
    4160Tuesdays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    PS I just got 500g of C14 gamma undecalactone from Perfumers World in Thailand and they'll sell smaller quantities. I do love its peachy creamy scent. (Not exactly natural organic though...).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    On the raspberry leaf - thanks for that - the trick Iíd missed was heating. I do know how that would be done on a commercial scale though: I have an automatic stirrer and Iíve been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so Iíve been putting it off . . . anyway if you do decide to go public with it, there is a way.

    C14 is cheap as chips if youíre happy with the synthetic - itís getting the natural thatís a bit more difficult - for most of my stuff Iím quite happy to use the synthetic but when Iím doing and all-natural fragrance itís nice to have some of the simpler notes to play with as well as the complex, whole naturals.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    What's wrong with a combo of gamma octalactone and massoia for coconut? If you combine that with GC/MS data, and stick to those constituents that are natural, I bet you can get close.

    Or just use massoia. Whatever qualities it lacks, you should be able to find something natural to add that quality.

    Thanks for the suggestions on raspberry and buchu. Raspberry crystals (ketone) are also nature identical.

    Something to remember is that most chemicals that make up natural smells are in lots of natural smells. That means, firstly, people know about them, and secondly, that many of these chemicals are available as isolates.

    One way to make your approach even more "natural" is to restrict percentages to those found in natural substances.

    Or just stick to whole natural oils and be satisfied with the notes you get. This is fine, as far as I'm concerned, when I just need a note and don't have to make an entire perfume or complicated accord. If you just need a note, what's the difference?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    second on gamma octalactone very close to real coconut, no idea what massoia is though.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Massoia Bark oil is banned by IFRA; if that doesn't bother you, carry on. And I think gamma Nonalactone is closer to true Coconut.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Massoia is lovely and very coconutty but it has a very strange side note to it that is quite harsh, almost lemon grassy. It makes it smell like a rubbery, plastic coconut.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    'I have an automatic stirrer and I’ve been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so I’ve been putting it off . . .'

    A water bath and a fish tank heater - with thermostat - might do the job.

    -

  18. #18

    Default Re: Natural organic fruit flavors in perfume-making?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    'I have an automatic stirrer and I’ve been thinking of getting one that incorporates a heating element as well. They cost a few hundred pounds (and up) so I’ve been putting it off . . .'
    -

    Got a used heated stirrer on Ebay for $40 shipped...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

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