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  1. #1

    Question Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Hi guys, I'm working on a male underarm sweat accord. I guess cuminic aldehyde is a good place to start. Do you guys know of any other materials I could use?
    Cheers!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Aldron. Smells just like "Sweaty Man".

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Aldron. Smells just like "Sweaty Man".

    PK
    Aldron is quite the material, isn't it?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Yes, to Aldron.

    As for Cuminic aldehyde, OK, I can see it, but I'd also see regular cumin EO too, to fill it out.
    And you can buy part of the kilo of Cuminadlehyde that I bought at Perfumer Supply House.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Yes, to Aldron.

    As for Cuminic aldehyde, OK, I can see it, but I'd also see regular cumin EO too, to fill it out.
    And you can buy part of the kilo of Cuminadlehyde that I bought at Perfumer Supply House.
    I actually just bought about 6 or so items from Perfumer Supply House that would fit this criteria! Cuminaldehyde is great, but dilute dilute dilute!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Thank you guys. I'd love to share buys with you, but I'm quite far away =P
    Deadidol, what are those other materials?
    Cheers!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    Deadidol, what are those other materials?
    Cheers!
    Animalis is a nice, sweet musky thing.
    Cuminaldehyde
    Indalorome could go down that path I suppose
    Shangralide is an interesting one, too

    These are more general musky things that I picked alongside Aldron.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    Animalis is a nice, sweet musky thing.
    Cuminaldehyde
    Indalorome could go down that path I suppose
    Shangralide is an interesting one, too

    These are more general musky things that I picked alongside Aldron.
    Vertfix coeur is an obvious one.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    I actually just bought about 6 or so items from Perfumer Supply House that would fit this criteria! Cuminaldehyde is great, but dilute dilute dilute!

    That's why I only bottled them (for her) in 1 dram vials. There's no point in using them neat. You'll need to dilute cuminaldhyde to at least 1%, maybe even more, to 0.1% or even 0.01%. It's not quite as strong as a Pyrazine, but it's close.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #10

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    My Wife always says that Vetiver smells like three week old unwashed village people. I don't agree with her, but that might have some use.

    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  11. #11

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    That's why I only bottled them (for her) in 1 dram vials. There's no point in using them neat. You'll need to dilute cuminaldhyde to at least 1%, maybe even more, to 0.1% or even 0.01%. It's not quite as strong as a Pyrazine, but it's close.

    PK
    I have it at 1% right now and it's still blasting my head off. It's very good, though. Very evocative stuff, and I could see a variety of uses for it—especially when creating scents that have an "environment" kind of feel. Something like Masque's Montecristo for example.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.
    PK
    The PSH Animalis is a little more sweet to my nose—a bit like what you get in Kiehl's musk. Slightly floral, a tad civet-y.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Yes, it's a different version of the Animalis Base... has a different formula.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #14

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    My Wife always says that Vetiver smells like three week old unwashed village people. I don't agree with her, but that might have some use.

    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.

    PK
    Yes, vetiver can be underarm sweat. Tobacco too can play a part. Same logic as vertofix coeur, same "family of notes". Cumin notes, as was mentioned. Animalis too. Andrane too. Micro doses of valerian or iso-valeric as a secondary note.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Something onion-y?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I was thinking more of a musky cummin or something like that

  17. #17

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    I was thinking more of a musky cummin or something like that
    I also like to have notes of sandal, balsams, ambers, and patchouli for underarms, musks too, as those things make for the pleasant aspects of it and keep it from being too rancid. Stay away from cloying things, jasmines, citruses. On top you can have traces of camphors and the like that won't turn sour and yet will give it the diffusiveness that underarms have, that masculine aromatic diffusiveness, for lack of a better term..

    Clove, costus.

    But yeah, of course a trace of cumin. Make sure you dilute it, or it will be hopeless. Cumin is extremely difficult to have success with if you aren't used to it, and then people mistakenly conclude that "I hate this stuff."

    The following is an interesting cumin/sweat note, but I don't know whether it is available to the public:

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1037741.html

    Summer savory is another option, for a nice leather effect that would be able to help "hold" the underarm smell. it's strong to stand up to the stink as well. I'm wondering about isobutyl quinoline too with that.

    But don't ignore vertofix, as that is completely a no brainer, very useful, pleasant, and very obviously a warm underarm note. It needs help during drydown, though.

    Obviously civet, or almost any other animal product can have a role.

    A trace of buchu for the sulfuric note is worth trying. I think we do sweat a lot of sulphur.

    Trace of carnation? That's the least complicated floral note I can think of. Rose and jasmine can get cloying, too thick in the "midrange",
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 12th August 2014 at 05:20 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't think that there is a single generic Male Sweat Accord. The underarm smell depends on so many things; the age of the male, how long the sweat has been there, the health of the male, his diet, his physical activity etc. Many materials already mentioned that would work. I would also add Karenal, Ambrocenide, and Skatole.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 12th August 2014 at 06:12 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Certain grapefruit type accords smell like armpits to me. Also sharp green notes and matierals like labienoxime give off this connection too.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Sandaxol reminds me of skin, so it might be useful and give some body..
    And Clary (especially abs.) is said to be kinda sweaty, but my sweat doesn't usually smell THAT sweet

  21. #21

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Passifloran smells exactly like stale armpit. Even at a 0.01% dilution.....

    Are you looking for a fresh sweat aroma or an oxidized sweat aroma?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Certainly underarm sweat has an ammonia note, when not fresh, but I'd also certainly not want that in my perfume! Unless you just want to be abstract with your creativity and not care about wearability..

  23. #23

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Definitely sweat is different in every person, but there is a "standard" sort of male sweat. I'm not looking for dirty, unwashed and stranger-to-the-bath armit smell, but more of an after-gym or after-sex male armit smell.
    Sweat from other parts of the body are different, since the male armpit has lots of hair, poor ventilation and heat concentration.
    My goal is to get to that particular smell to add it in a very small proportion to a fragrance, to get an animalic undertone headed towards a "human male" direction instead of a civet, a beaver or a deer.
    I really like animalic undertones in unlikely scents, but I think I'd enjoy a scent much more if it had "humanic" traces instead of animalic ones.

    Since I've started to create fragrances just some months ago, I'm looking for materials that I can easily get.
    So far, my best approximation was cumminic aldehyde + ambrettia + cetalox + oakmoss
    I'ts pretty close, but it smells more of a female armpit (meaning with no hair, less rancid and more skin than sweat) and now I need to recreate male sweat.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    So far, my best approximation was cumminic aldehyde + ambrettia + cetalox + oakmoss
    I'ts pretty close, but it smells more of a female armpit (meaning with no hair, less rancid and more skin than sweat) and now I need to recreate male sweat.
    Thank you for sharing your finding!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    The standard malodour used to evaluate deodorant fragrances for their ability to mask bad smells is Iso Valeric Acid, which smells just like sweaty feet.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Isovaleric acid is also the “pimary odorant” in Amoore’s sweaty primary odor family. It’s not an important contributor to the armpit sweat smell as was supposed in the past.

    With regard to “an after-gym … armpit smell”, from Martin et al., (2010) (at http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...id2009254a.pdf)
    “The main contributors to axillary odor are (i) unsaturated or hydroxylated branched fatty acids with (E)-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid (3M2H) and 3-hydroxy-3-methyl-hexanoic acid (HMHA) as key components, (ii) sulfanylalkanols, particularly 3-methyl-3-sulfanylhexan-1-ol (3M3SH) /…/, and (iii) the odoriferous steroids, 5a-androst-16-en-3-one and 5a-androst-16-en-3a-ol ...”. See also Preti & Leyden (2010) at http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...id2009396a.pdf.

    These compounds may be commercially available, but unaffordable. For cheaper substitutes there are many suggestions in this thread, e.g., cumin oil for 3M2H and HMHA, onion extract for 3M3SH, traces of javanol, timberol, musk ketone, etc.

    The quest for a "standard" sort of male sweat smell seems to me problematic because from what I have seen there is no “male specific armpit smell”.
    First, although Zhou et al., (2014) at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2014.03.035 claims that androstadienone (AND) signals “male” to females, to my knowledge the single published quantitative study regarding armpit sweat steroids (Gower et al., (1994) at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8142319) shows no evidence of sex differences.
    Second, inter-individual variability seems so large that not only did it override intersex variability, but makes average values or other “standards” meaningless.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Since I've been thinking about a similar use, I'll ask this - I don't really need to do much to smell like a sweaty male. Why would I want to further amplify this aspect in a perfume, in a way which doesn't communicate my own individual pheromone signature (assuming such thing exists)? Or are you looking to add it to smells women would wear because they would like it?
    You can just wipe your underarms and tincture it, and keep recharging till you get to where you want to. Or go to an extreme and do what they do with billy goat hair..

  28. #28

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    zmiyashiro, now I realize that maybe I misunderstood the question. Since there are / were (?) on the market colognes with aliphatic acids and steroids, like AndronTM by Jovan, maybe the question refers to a perfume “standard” for the “male armpit smell” accord, something like a basic chypre or fougere accord? If so, I don’t know what accords composed the noses from Jovan. Nevertheless, I don’t think that those alleged pheromones work, because products like Chanel 5 and Axe were not replaced by Andron  - the proof is in the pudding and market share!

    Nizan, I asked such questions by myself, and came to the conclusion that many people believe that “pheromones” may attract partners and/or intimidate competitors. I believe that papers like Zhou et al. (2014) are examples of bad science and that commercialization of human pheromones is a fraud. But then, if zmiyashiro experiments with sweaty scents and the final accord works for him, good for him; if it works for others, not sell? If it didn’t work, he may learn how isovaleric acid can ruin the most beautiful composition and the meaning of “flattening” with regard to a scent.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't intend to put pheromones into perfumes.
    First of all, pheromones aren't percieved by the olfatory system, but by a different system. And second, pheromones for humans may only be produced by humas, And I don't intend to do any human armpit EO... =P
    What i'm looking for is to add a "humanic" (as a parallel to "animalic") undertone to a fragance.
    We generally tend to qualify animalic notes as "sexy" or "sexual", yet, this are smells that correspond to a different species. Why would I consider sexy an underlying note of a deer secretion and not a human after-sex secretion?
    See my point?
    I'm getting into philosophy of perfumes, hahaha

  30. #30

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't intend to put pheromones into perfumes.
    First of all, pheromones aren't percieved by the olfatory system, but by a different system. And second, pheromones for humans may only be produced by humas, And I don't intend to do any human armpit EO... =P
    What i'm looking for is to add a "humanic" (as a parallel to "animalic") undertone to a fragance.
    We generally tend to qualify animalic notes as "sexy" or "sexual", yet, this are smells that correspond to a different species. Why would I consider sexy an underlying note of a deer secretion and not a human after-sex secretion?
    See my point?
    I'm getting into philosophy of perfumes, hahaha

  31. #31

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Actually, that all would be about the biology of sexuality in mammals, and the psychology of sexuality, moreso than just philosophy.

    A fair bit to untangle here...

    While pheromone marketing is sketchy, and wild claims of magic potions are not reasonable, there actually really is some good research supporting the existence of them. Humans are just mammals, and scientists have long known pheromones are part of mammalian life for all mammals. Dogs, pigs and humans all share likely pheromoes, actually.

    Humans are animals. Animals refers to human animals as well. Deer musk and human skin substances, and civet, etc. actually do share commonalities. Again, we are talking about mammals. Humans are mammals. The same chemical that makes a wet dog smell as such, isovaleric acid, makes humans' feet stink.

    Actually human pheromones do not rely on the functionality of the VNO organ, which functions poorly in humans. Cognition and other higher order processing mediates the effect of pheromones in humans to a greater extent, though the biological effect on the emotional brain centers is still fairly direct.

    If I was trying to create human sweat, I would be certainly open to the use of steroid molecules like androsterone and and androstadienone. They are present in sweat, in any case. You wouldn't have to of course. But it could be one approach. Using animal products is another legit approach.

    It's as close as you'll get, as there is no human musk yet reconstructed by scientists Some day there will be, most probably..

    Isovaleric acid is extremely valuable for perfuming, and certainly does not ruin scents. Valerian root is one of my favorite natural substances for perfuming, as bad as it smells. Not knowing how to use it ruins a lot of scents, however.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 15th August 2014 at 07:33 AM.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    How do you usually use it? Always having trouble wirh Spikenard, which is even tamer. A good way to add a human musk dimension would be to make your perfume a deodorant

  33. #33

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    How do you usually use it? Always having trouble wirh Spikenard, which is even tamer. A good way to add a human musk dimension would be to make your perfume a deodorant
    Of course, most people here including yourself know you have to dilute something like valerian, which is one of those things that get stronger the more dilute it is. You use it like acetic or butyric acid, dimethyl sulfide, or indole. With the exception of DMS (human sweat does contain other sulphur notes, though), these are all human sweat notes, found on the human body. The experienced folk here, of course, know that the things that smell bad out of context, or in the wrong dilution, are often some of the most important materials for perfuming.

    One of the attractions of natural perfuming as an option is that it is easier to find earthy things that stand up to underarm stink. You can negate underarm stink with, say, straight patchouli for example, not that you would necessarily use it straight, and it's very convenient. It is possible to make a natural scent that smells better under one's arms than on a paper strip (though certainly it would also be common for a commercial perfume to be ruined when sprayed in the armpits). The stinky animal notes are simply incorporated into the effect, and the earthy essential oils often somewhat reduce bacteria, or slow its growth, or perhaps even influence which strains grow most vigorously.

    Spikenard has some chemical commonalities with valerian, but you can pretty much use valerian just for the valeric acid, since you can dilute it so much that the effect will be mostly about that. So spikenard for me is a bit harder to use as it's so complex. Valerian is complex, but since the stinky feet smell is so incredibly strong, you can minimize the disadvantages of the complexity and use it as a musk note in traces, for that purpose. You don't use it to carry the need for musk, just as an aspect of an animal accord. Isovaleric acid should not be the primary sweat note, in my opinion, though. It's better in a supporting role, as it is for humans.

    Interesting story about spikenard is that it was reputed to be used to anoint Jesus' feet, which makes perfect sense, as it smells like feet so would be used a "foot note", logically. Makes me sort of believe the legend.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 15th August 2014 at 08:10 AM.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Interesting story about spikenard is that it was reputed to be used to anoint Jesus' feet, which makes perfect sense, as it smells like feet so would be used a "foot note", logically. Makes me sort of believe the legend.

    There's really not so much agreement as to what was actually used to anoint the feet of Jesus. I've done a bit of my own research about it all.

    Nard is an ancient unguent of composite formula, and not actually a pure spikenard extraction of some type. And since it's a formulation, it's likely to be somewhat different between Apothecarys/Perfumers preparing it, doncha think?

    And the other aspect of Nard is that it is a Greek Tuberose flower, and If I had to pick what scent might be used on the feet of a person you were gifting with your love and devotion, I'm certainly sure it wouldn't be purely spikenard. And since it's a woman doing the gifting, I'm leaning to the historical unguent that may have included the flower from Greece, maybe in an early enfleurage type of oil base used in the unguent formulation.

    Just thinking, and hypothesizing...

    That's what I know and what I think on the subject... :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  35. #35

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Yes, I didn't mean to imply there was agreement on it, I believe costus was another possiblity bandied about, another less than pretty smell. I should have said it's one of the possibilities talked about.

    Interesting about "nard". I'm not really prepared to discuss translation issues and that sort of thing. But it is interesting, thanks.

    I personally would have no problem expressing love and devotion with something very earthy and raw like spikenard, but that is just my own bias to love dearly the more difficult earthy smells. I imagine pure spikenard on the feet actually would smell good after a few hours. Because the whole point is that it is a smell that naturally blends with the primary odorous foot chemical, isovaleric acid. Try it, Nizan, and see. Spikenard plus sandalwood, or something, on the feet. Jesus walked a lot, we hear, and I'm sure His "dogs" (a term directly related to isovaleric acid in its origin as a colloquialism) developed a "bouquet" like other humans, If I might put it that way (Please don't hit me with a lightning bolt, Jesus! j/k).

    Aesthetics seem to have been quite different a long time ago, if you look at some of the biblical formulae. I do think it likely that there wasn't so much of a need or desire for things to smell "pretty", fresh or clean by modern standards. I mean there is no flower smell that can equal patchouli or sandalwood strictly as a bodily hygiene item. Flower oils turn rancid in the presence of sweat, just as a general rule. But something earthier will just be getting lovely after a couple hours, and then will be quite beautiful later in the day. Nowadays, we have trouble overlooking the immediate notes when they aren't sweet, clean and/or pretty. That is a whole different discussion.

    And what the heck do I know about any of this? It's just interesting to speculate. To further guess, I will speculate that Jesus would have liked a very simple scent, that He would have appreciated the simplest beauties of nature. I am imagining more of a Pope Francis type than a fancy monarch type. On the other hand I also appreciate that the average person, or maybe Mary Magdalene, might well have wanted to "materially impress" Jesus with something fancy like a tuberose accord.

    Sorry I digressed a bit... Interesting thread.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 15th August 2014 at 09:33 AM.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    The Chemistry of a Football Shirt

    http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/08/...ootball-shirt/

    I want to know *WHERE* the scent of the football shirt is...!

    :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  37. #37

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Sandaxol reminds me of skin, so it might be useful and give some body..
    And Clary (especially abs.) is said to be kinda sweaty, but my sweat doesn't usually smell THAT sweet
    Yes! Clary Sage is definitely a good male sweat note (in my opinion)

  38. #38

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    zmiyashiro, the point I tried to make was that if you know exactly what you want, it is upon you to compose that note, whatever materials you may choose from the many suggested in the thread. What is important is the odor blend, or the effect upon a composition.

    I also suggested that the rout taken by the “pheromone” manufacturers is not very productive, and I will add that the approach is somewhat simplistic, IMO. For example, the author of a patent (WO2008138651 A2) recommends the addition into a styling gel of 0.15% perfume and 0.0003% androstadienone. This will work only if AND has pheromonal activity. Another example, not related to armpit scents, is the perfume ‘Vulva’ by Vivaeros, 2008. To me it seems that the author(s) put in all the good stuff, but the end result didn’t impress reviewers (see https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scent...63202847040070, 2012) and did not match up the name, because the author(s) was not sufficiently guided by his nose.

    About animalic notes as "sexy" or "sexual", and why would we consider sexy an underlying note of a deer secretion. First, I think that the perfumers that use animalic notes try / succeed to obtain exactly the same effect you are seeking. Second, the term “animalic” has many meanings. For example:
    - A category of raw materials, e.g., animal (ambergris, civet, musk, etc.), vegetal (flowers, fruits, woods, etc.), mineral (ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, salt)
    - A category of odors related to this materials, e.g., musky, fecal, urinous, sweaty, goaty, etc., floral, sulfurous, etc.
    - An euphemism, when more precise qualifiers cannot be used, e.g., amboxan is animalic because it bears the typical odor of ambergris tincture; but look up the characterization of the odor of ambergris tincture by Poucher: the smell of good quality ambergris tincture is slightly animalic (fecal, due to ambrinol); low qulity (black) ambergris has a strong animalic smell (fecal & carrion), due to many impurities.

    Notes:
    - There is much disagreement with respect to the definition of pheromones
    - For me pheromones are bombikol and Boarmate™
    - Copulins are not pheromones in monkeys
    - ‘Signature odors’ that carry information about individuals are not pheromones
    - The sense of smell is very important for the socio-sexual behavior of humans, but so far no human pheromone was identified, and the behaviors can be easily explained by conditioning.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    -- I copied a personal communication from a top literature reviewer in pheromone studies (JV Kohl) to save time, but here is some information on copulins, through him from from the woman who did the seminal work, Astrid Jutte:

    ">>>... you are welcome to post it if you can get ahold of it in digital
    form,but you must attribute it to New Scientist and mention that we have
    a web site at http://www.newscientist.com/ updated weekly where other
    stories reside...>>>
    >
    With permission granted (above), here is the article.
    >
    > [P L A N E T S C I E N C E]
    >
    > Men respond to the scent of a woman
    >
    > [Image] IT HAS long been believed that men are unable to
    > tell when women ovulate. But new research from
    > Austria suggests that although men may not be
    > aware that a woman is ovulating, they do respond
    > physiologically with increased testosterone
    > levels.
    >
    > Astrid Jutte, a researcher at the Ludwig
    > Boltzmann Institute for Urban Ethology in
    > Vienna, carried out tests on 106 men, divided
    > into four groups. Three groups were asked to
    > inhale one of three synthetically produced human
    > copulins--fatty acids found in vaginal
    > secretions in women at various times during the
    > menstrual cycle. One of the copulins mimicked
    > ovulation, one menstruation and the third
    > another point in the cycle. The fourth group of
    > men inhaled only water vapour.
    >
    > Jutte found that testosterone levels in the
    > saliva of those men exposed to the scent of
    > ovulation increased by half, while levels in
    > those sniffing only water dropped by half.
    > Levels in the two other groups increased
    > slightly, says Jutte.
    >
    > Previous research has shown that although rhesus
    > monkeys respond to ovulation by scent, in human
    > females ovulation is "hidden" from men. One
    > theory has suggested that hidden ovulation makes
    > it possible for a woman to cheat on her mate if
    > he is found to be genetically unfit.
    >
    > But Jutte believes the idea that human ovulation
    > is truly hidden has never been properly tested.
    > "These results suggest a special kind of hidden
    > ovulation," she says. "The effect on
    > testosterone levels changes the picture
    > completely." She points out that many mammals
    > have an additional scent organ to perceive
    > smells designed to alter their behaviour or
    > physiology. Previous tests indicated that humans
    > also have this organ, known as the vomeronasal.
    >
    > Although Jutte showed that men respond
    > physiologically to ovulating women, she says she
    > was unable to prove that ovulation affects their
    > attraction to women.
    >
    > Alison Motluk
    >
    > See also: Body odours, perfumes
    >
    > From New Scientist, 7 September 1996
    >
    >--------------------------
    >Additional considerations/human implications:
    >
    >LeMagnen (1982) states: "... the interaction between sensory inputs and
    >hormonal levels appears to be a general rule in the
    >enteroceptive-exteroceptive relationships underlying behaviours (p. 8)."
    >
    >Persky (1987) suggests: "... a form of communication exists between the
    >two partners whereby the female informs the male that she has ovulated
    >and he responds, like the dominant rhesus monkey, with an increase in
    >his testosterone level facilitating his entire sexual response cycle."
    >
    >Taken together, Juette's empirical data, Persky's speculation, and
    >LeMagnen's observation suggest (but do not prove beyond a shadow of a
    >doubt)that the pheromones of women influence properly timed reproductive
    >sexual behavior by influencing testosterone levels in men."

    -- Yes human pheromones have been identified. Androsterone has empirical support (Regina Maiworm's studies), as does androsterol and androstadienone. That just means significant effects have been found. It does not mean magic love potions exist. They don't. But when you see a bump in sex hormones (e.g., leutenizing hormone), that is just about as solid of information as you could have. That kind of evidence is out there. It's not subjective. There are lots of purported pheromones. Most of them have no research on them yet. But a lot of people are experimenting and reporting their experiences.

    -- Boarmate is androstenone. Androstenone has some limited evidence supporting it also -- women's response to it varies with menstrual cycle. That's one of the markers a scientist would look for. Women also choose seats sprayed with androstenone, despite their finding the smell offensive when they can detect it consciously.

    -- I see no problem with defining pheromones, A chemical that causes relevant biological and or behavioral changes. No one in science defines them in terms of some romanticized notion. Though there are some studies that document increased sexual behavior by those wearing pheromones. Ogb

    -- What behaviors can be easily explained by what kind of conditioning? The only conditioning that is often mentioned in peromone research that I've seen a lot is the kind where pheromone response is paired with secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics that correlate with hormonal levels (testosterone and estrogen-related hormones). But in this case, the presence of conditioning is used to argue FOR the existence of human pheromones. The argument is that the pheromones directly cause sexcal changes, and secondary sex chartacteristics cause sexual changes only via being paired with olfactory cues (pheromones). I was one who wanted to debunk that, and I found it difficult, honestly. But the presence of conditioning supported pheromones in those cases. My criticism of it ended up being that it was reductionistic, though not flat out wrong.

    -- regarding deer musk. I challenge anyone who can to try deeply inhaling the best quality Tonquin deer musk in sexual situations to experience what it does. Find out for yourself. For me there is zero doubt what it does. I think it probably could be documented scientifically to cause a hormonal spike, but that research has probably not been attempted. I know how it would turn out, though. Anyone can experience it. It's like proving wine can get you drunk. How? Drink some.

    -- I was going to agree signature odors are not pheromones, but then I remembered all the MHC studies (mate choice and immune compatibility studies). Actually the immune profile is a kind of signature as well as a pheromone. Women prefer the t-shirts of men with compatible immune systems to their own, in order to maximize immune robustness of offspring. It's all about survival like everything else in biology.

    -- I agree that companies marketing pheromones are misleading in their marketing. I regard all that stuff as spam that should be ignored. There are no magic love potions, and just because you can cause a statistically significant hormone spike doesn't mean you'll "get lucky" with anyone. Cognition, which is influnced by culture, mediates pheromone response in humans. I don't wear "human pheromones" anyway, because I've always wanted a woman to react to me for who I am, not a fake misleading smell.

    -- Besides testing specific substances, there is all kinds of other evidence that human behavior is influenced by pheromones. The most famous early studies demonstrated reliable menstrual synchronization among cohabitating females. Anyone can verify this for themselves as well. Do you know a bunch of young women who have lived together for a long time? Then there are t-shirt studies that demonstrate the expected hormonal responses.

    -- Here is a very recent literature review pdf, from a scientific journal. They seem more ambitious and enthusiastic than I am in their conclusions. This is just a very random example of some of the research. I had never seen this one before today, but it is an overview of sorts. So a lot of stuff is out there from serious academics.

    http://jadweb.org/pdf/JAD.Vol2.No4.pdf/1.pdf

    Sorry for the digression, but felt obliged to repond to the specific scientific claims in kind. Sorry the post was so choppy, but I didn't want to spend many hours composing something more like a scholarly article, for little reason. I'm just trying to indicate that there is more out there to learn about than a lot of "skeptics" think. Someone can review the literature themselves. I've just hinted here at what they can find..
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 16th August 2014 at 06:12 AM.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    DrSmellThis, I am sorry if my previous post was received as offensive or confrontational. It was specifically addressed to zmiyashiro. I added the notes to make clear my position viz. human pheromones, and to signal that the science of human pheromones is far from settled.

    With regard to human pheromones I would consider myself a ‘forced agnostic’ or pessimist, rather than a skeptic (well, except copulins ).

    The fact that you call androsterone, androstenol and androstadienone, ‘pheromones’ when I would prefer ‘putative pheromones’ has no effect on my reading / understanding of your posts, and didn’t diminish their informative value.

    Regarding deer musk??? It would be astonishing if musk tincture has no ‘effect’. It contains some 20 steroids, about half of them with biological activity that makes the tincture banned from use by Olympic competitors (http://bjsm.bmj.com on April 29, 2014). I don’t know how these steroids are absorbed by skin, nose epithelium, lungs, but I’m wondering if excessive application of musk tincture produces hirsutism?

    I would not include signature odorants into the category of pheromones for the technical reason that it broadens too much the definition of pheromones. I’m afraid that any contributing chemical to BO can be named ‘pheromone’ if it’s produced by commensal bacteria and carry information about the producer. In my opinion that is bad since the notion ‘pheromone’ will eventually become meaningless. On a lighter note, consider for example, that 3M2H carries information about the personal hygiene habits of the producer, and indole and skatole will signal the same, in addition to Don’t! It will be easy to argue that all these signals evolved, so are even more ‘pheromones’.
    Again (just joking), Indole & skatole will also signal a diet rich in fish and meat, ammonia & hydrogen sulfide may signal beans, while a preponderance of thiols and sulphides signals sauerkraut.
    Now, for a hunter-gatherer lady that has to pick a mate, future food provision is of tremendous importance, as well as information about the candidates’ potential to provide high quality food. For which of them will her selection go? Hint: chimpanzee females trade sex for meat.
    Finally I device a survey in which I ask about the preference for perfumes with a background note of civet vs. DMS.

    On a pessimistic vibe, I found a paper of this kind, and more are coming.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Hmm.. Not sure I'm brave enough to put Spikenard in my sandals.. It could turn out to be quite a nuisance in my office. Thanks for pointing out the differences between Valerian and Spikenard, though. I always liked the latter better, because it smelled more like old wood. But I guess I will give the former a trial. The only use I've found for it till now was treating insomnia..

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