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  1. #1

    Default How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    I have had a...er...weird relationship with Rose Poivree. It was the first niche fragrance I smelt and I loved its realism and at the time I was obsessed with roses. I purchased a 50ml refill bottle about 3 or 4 years ago and I believe it was the original with civet overload. I loved it to death and that is exactly what happened to it. I was so obsessed with it, I used it everyday and sprayed ravishingly throughout the day. About half-way through my bottle, I was sick with it and couldn't even muster the stomach to wear it...ever! I gave it to my cousin who loved it and used every drop of it.

    Lately I have been craving it bad and I would love to purchase a bottle but I fear drastic reformulation. I've read numerous reviews the civet and cumin are tamed and the rose is richer. If any of you have smelt the newer version, can you please post your comments. I mean, is it noticeable only if you sniff and examine, otherwise the sillage would be the same? Also, do any of you guys know a place where I could buy a bottle of the original.

  2. #2

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Ok I have an update! I went to my local TDC dealer to test what I thought was the new version. What I smelt however was the exact same smell I had about four years ago. So, I may have been exposed to the new reformulation long ago. And I'm fine with that. I purchased a 90ml bottle and they had everything 50% off!!! SCORE!

  3. #3

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Sniff... I love a happy ending
    In a world where people smell bad, it is the personal responsibility of every Basenoter to improve the world one SotD at a time...

  4. #4

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by HDS1963 View Post
    Sniff... I love a happy ending
    Yeah, me too. :-) And I love Rose Poivree!

  5. #5

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haunani View Post
    Yeah, me too. :-) And I love Rose Poivree!
    Agreed. It most certainly doesn't suck.
    In a world where people smell bad, it is the personal responsibility of every Basenoter to improve the world one SotD at a time...

  6. #6

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Tell me about it! It's been 24 hours and I'm still doin the happy dance

  7. #7
    gupts's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    I've heard that the new formulation is devoid of that civet that the previous formulation was overladen with. The civet did bother me a lot, I must admit. The rose note however is one of the most realistic I've ever experienced. I have a 90ml bottle in older formulation so if the newer juice has deteriorated then I am safe.

    Would love to hear some more people with their opinions about the comparison.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by gupts View Post
    I've heard that the new formulation is devoid of that civet that the previous formulation was overladen with. The civet did bother me a lot, I must admit. The rose note however is one of the most realistic I've ever experienced. I have a 90ml bottle in older formulation so if the newer juice has deteriorated then I am safe.

    Would love to hear some more people on their opinions about the comparison.
    The bottle I just bought has "civette" listed in the notes among others. I do smell civet but it's not the fecal civet of Jicky or unwashed genitalia of MKK, it's more like the sharp bite of Joy. I have no idea whether or not I have the new formulation, but I'm guessing it's the new one because I don't find it very off-putting like some of the reviews stated. I must note that I love civet in ever way, shape or form, so my inclination that it's the new one is biased, or I may be perceiving the civet overload as pure bliss

    Also, if I may add, I've noticed A LOT of similarities between Rose Poivree and 1000 by Jean Patou; so much so, that I actually mistook it for Rose Poivree when my friend was wearing 1000. From that day on, my love with RP was rekindled.
    Last edited by scent; 10th June 2010 at 11:36 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    IMO 'new' Rose Poivree does smell lighter than the original. In addition, the original was very stinky.

    For me it is very easy to tell whether I'm smelling vintage or new RP. When I spray the vintage on my skin, my skin itches. Almost immediately, surrounding the area that I sprayed it. This does not happen with the new juice. Strange, but true.

    I miss my decant of this stuff. But honestly, I am awash in pepper prominent scents in my wardrobe.

  10. #10
    WoodyBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    [QUOTE=mikeperez23;1855834]IMO 'new' Rose Poivree does smell lighter than the original. In addition, the original was very stinky.

    Many people are saying things like 'I have heard'. Not one for innuendo or rumor mongering, I have spoken directly to the CEO of 'The Different Company' about the RUMOUR of a possible reformulation of Rose Poivrée.

    I have worn this for years, (since University) I think I may have a salient opinion.

    Having acquired current samples this month directly from the company (also having been assured they represent EXACTLY what is in the current bottles), I spent 3 actual days testing the samples against my (3rd bottle) of Rose Poivree'. This 100ml bottle is about 3 years old. (I also have a small bit left in a 50ml bottle from my school days that is literally about 7 years old).
    I have tested under a variety of circumstances, pre-shower, post shower, after the gym, for a night out on my Birthday (stupid hot weather,...), at home Animating my current Feature Film and even now as I type this in West Hollywood, one on each wrist.

    I have ~$20,000(USD) of Niche Fragrances in my Collection (in addition to more 'Commercial' fraggies than I would care to lay claim to...) I have been a Colognissuer and Parfumista my entire Life. (I am 42yrs) I am not easily swayed or tricked.

    To this most Sensitive and Knowledgeable nose, The current (and every version) of Rose Poivrée are in a word, the SAME.

    In the Opening, the Middle and the Dry-down - Nothing is Missing, Nothing is changed, NOTHING IS DIFFERENT! ----->At least not to an Experienced Person with more than a rudimentary understanding of Chemistry and the Volatility of Natural Substances.

    Let me explain:

    First A Primer on Naturals and 'MAN-MADE Aroma-Molecules';
    If you think the current Rose Poivree' Formulation is radically Different... (see what I did there? ;~) Then you need to be made aware of the fact that almost all Commercial Fragrances contain not Volatile Natural Substances but are instead created almost entirely of Man-Made Chemicals. Specifically, what are called 'Nature-Identical Aroma Molecules' (although 'Nature-Identical' is a bit of a misnomer, 'Nature-Approximating' might be better nomenclature as the man-made versions are created using only the largest 'spikes' read by the Chemical Companies 'Mass-Spectrometers', These show the components of Natural Substances as a Visible Graph. The graph is made up of a series of 'Spikes' (each 'Spike' represents the Relative Amount of any given Substance that is a Component of the Complex NaturalBeing Tested)
    Where things go awry (and the harm to the ART-Form Begins) Is in the MAN-MADE Chemical INTERPRETATION of the Naturals. The Chemical 'Designers' (while undoubtedly doing their best) include their chemical approximation of the 'subtances' that are most easily 'seen' (The Highest 'Spikes') BUT they cannot (or Do Not in some cases due to cost) include the (many many more) 'substances' that are in small, even minute quantity - but in an Art-form where Distinctive Detail and Specificity of Ingredients is of Tantamount Importance it would seem that these minute substances are indeed what makes up the REAL character of the Naturals as ooposed to the Flat Interpolations that are their Man-Made chemical equivalent.

    The Daily Proof of this fragrant dichotomy is our ability to so very readily recognize 'chemicals' in a product, as opposed to full rich naturals. I know I can.

    As Luc GABRIEL CEO The Different Company put it:
    "Like any mix of natural ingredients and alcohol it evolves over time. Think about wine and you’ll have a good comparison. A cheap wine will not evolve over time (thank god!!!) a beautiful elaborate wine will change from year to year. Same thing for Rose Poivrée"

    What he means by that if I may be so bold to interpret, is that Cheap Fragrances composed of Man-Made Chemicals, Just Sit there. They don't Evolve in the same way, they are what they are (good or not.....) until they go off. Naturals Get more complex, more unique, they even take on a bit of different character SIMPLY based on how they are stored (as we all know...)
    Naturals, to answer the quote I am responding to, tend to get 'MORE STINKY' in that wonderful way we all are reaching for. For that very reason it is nigh on impossible to test (without this crucial knowledge and understanding) a FRESHLY-MADE BATCH against the contents of a Beloved Cherished and OLD bottle. The older bottle while possibly (and i the case Definately) having the same Components and Amount of those Components will MOST CERTAINLY not smeel exactly the same. IF IT DID IT WOULD MEAN THEY WERE NOT MADE OF MAN-MADE CHEMICALS NOT BEAUTIFUL, RICH, COMPLEX and DETAILED NATURALS.

    Put Simply, What you seem to be complaining about, is precisely the aspect and character of the product in question, that you should be HAILING as a GIFT. As a Guarantee that it is Natural and capable of that most precious of qualities of quality fragnrnces, the ablity to Evolve and become even more BEAUTIFUL.

    This entire rumour stems from a Crisis of Patience (lack thereof, not to mention Faith. This is Jean Claude and Celine' Elenna we are talking about not COTY)

    I shall include Luc GABRIEL's words to me, I do not think he would mind. They are below. I will also paste this response (minus the quote above) as a Blog Entry.
    ---> I will likely not respond to any posts that even slightly smack of negativity. I have been (virtually) attacked for just about everything I have ever posted on this site (and therefore only post about once a year, if that). Basenotes, is mostly an invaluable resource but I have found there exists a large contingent of less than informed people who seem to both: Respond to nearly Everything and/but have very Little real information to impart.

    (Annotated) Letter from the CEO of The Different Company:
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Robert,

    As you know, when rumor has it, it is so difficult to go back to truth and reality. I’ve already heard what you talk about and it is a heartbreak!
    Let me here confirm a few facts, Which are easily verifiable and supported by rationale, data, witnesses, analysis and actual products.

    We have never EVER changed our formula on the Rose Poivrée.

    Never, period.
    And why should we? We would not betray ourselves on something as crucial as the very Fragrance itself, for a few Euros saved...
    No that’s not the spirit of the brand as you know.
    We experience huge increases in the costs of components (that we have to partially transfer to our clients) but we do not change the formula or the quality of the components.
    In 2006 we ran out of Absolute of Osmanthus, specifically the quality we buy to a particular provider. For 6 months we have not been able to provide our clients and we ran out of stock. For our n°1 ranking fragrance at the time.
    So we prefer to choose to stop selling a fragrance if there is a problem rather than selling “sub products” not up to the quality level of the company.

    What is true though, and very true for our fragrances, is the following;
    - We do not use artificial colors, conservatives, stabilizer in our fragrances. Never.
    - We use a high end essence of Rose, one of the costliest components in perfumery.
    - We regularly buy the essence of Rose (and of course its from Natural Rose Petals and like (all) natural components it slightly changes, from one crop to another. Not enough though to change the fragrance itself and likely only identifiable by a perfume composer.
    - The Rose Poivrée is a relatively fragile fragrance, much more so than Sel de Vetiver for instance
    - Its color changes over time due to the iron particles in the fragrance when exposed to light. This does not change the fragrance itself.
    - A fragrance is a mix of alcohol and natural ingredients and chemical ingredients. Like any mix of natural ingredients and alcohol it evolves over time. Think about wine and you’ll have a good comparison. A cheap wine will not evolve over time (thank god!!!) a beautiful elaborate wine will change from year to year. Same thing for Rose Poivrée but after 3 years.

    Your sample set is on the way and your feedback will be much appreciated.

    With my best regards

    Luc GABRIEL CEO The Different Company
    Haute Parfumerie Contemporaine
    22 Bis Rue des Volontaires 75015 PARIS

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. #11

    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    WoodyBois: Thank you for your extremely detailed analysis and assurance that Rose Poivree has not been changed. The bottle I smelt four years ago smells exactly the same to the one I purchased late last year, so I'm sure it must be the aging process. It's very interesting for you to mentioned the osmanthus absolute. I've read in Perfume of Life that the new, fresh-batch of Osmanthus smells watery and weak compared the rich, old batches. It was the change of the quality of absolute that you mentioned. You are extremely knowledgeable and I must say, you have great tastes in fragrances Again, a big thank you!

  12. #12
    Mudassir's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    WoodyBois,
    So, in essence, the CEO of The Different Company is saying the formula hasn't changed, but the fragrance could (or does) evolve for the better over time (provided its a high quality frangrance). But then your post seems to suggest they all smell the same (even after the 3 year treshhold the TDC CEO mentions)? What am I missing here? Are you saying your 7 year old bottle smells exactly the same, it hasn't aged like expensive wines do and as Rose Poivree should have aged if it was a high quality fragrance?
    Offsite Sales - Updated June7th

    Vintage Dia, Vetiver Dry, Angel parfum, Opium parfum for Sale:
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/215962

  13. #13
    mr. reasonable's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    This is interesting.

    I picked up a couple of the TDC samples of RP from their official retailer in Singapore in 2008 and found it to be quite a challenging (not entirely unpleasant) scent - I interpreted the opening blast as having a very sharp metallic quality (rather than the warm but animalic quality I usually realte to civet) that then sudsided as the rose emerged more fuly. I notice others have described this as more of a cumin overdose. Civet / cumin? Both? I don't know - but singularly memorable - once sniffed, never forgotten.

    I tried RP again a year or so later at the official retailer in HK, again in both a display bottle and the little 'cube' sample bottles that I took home, and it had lost all of that metallic edge - just gone. It seemed to me it had undergone a significant de-fanging to the point that it seemed to be quite a polite and bright, slightly pepper rose. It was drastically different.

    This chimes with the TS review, BTW, (which I think dates to 2005) as well as several reviews here on basenotes. If you look thru the basenotes reviews it almost seems two distinctly different rose scents are being reviewed at times. The two (official sample) versions I own are very different and my guess is that the first batch I tried had been in stock from the first release and the second batch a year later was a more recent batch - logical given the fact HK started carrying this line quite some time after SNG. Neither version prompted me to buy a bottle (I like Malle Une Rose & both Lyrics in the rose department - slightly darker) but it has been interesting to follow the various comments about this particular scent which seems something of an anomaly in the TDC line.
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 19th March 2011 at 02:38 AM.

  14. #14
    WoodyBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    You ask "what you are missing here",... How about reading the entire post. Throughout I say things like: RELATIVE to this KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING about the QUALITIES of VOLATILES. Etc etc. Meaning 'having taken that into account',.......

    Any more than that I just don't have time to explain. Read it again carefully,...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mudassir View Post
    WoodyBois,
    So, in essence, the CEO of The Different Company is saying the formula hasn't changed, but the fragrance could (or does) evolve for the better over time (provided its a high quality frangrance). But then your post seems to suggest they all smell the same (even after the 3 year treshhold the TDC CEO mentions)? What am I missing here? Are you saying your 7 year old bottle smells exactly the same, it hasn't aged like expensive wines do and as Rose Poivree should have aged if it was a high quality fragrance?

  15. #15
    WoodyBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post
    This is interesting.

    I picked up a couple of the TDC samples of RP from their official retailer in Singapore in 2008 and found it to be quite a challenging (not entirely unpleasant) scent - I interpreted the opening blast as having a very sharp metallic quality (rather than the warm but animalic quality I usually realte to civet) that then sudsided as the rose emerged more fuly. I notice others have described this as more of a cumin overdose. Civet / cumin? Both? I don't know - but singularly memorable - once sniffed, never forgotten.

    I tried RP again a year or so later at the official retailer in HK, again in both a display bottle and the little 'cube' sample bottles that I took home, and it had lost all of that metallic edge - just gone. It seemed to me it had undergone a significant de-fanging to the point that it seemed to be quite a polite and bright, slightly pepper rose. It was drastically different.

    This chimes with the TS review, BTW, (which I think dates to 2005) as well as several reviews here on basenotes. If you look thru the basenotes reviews it almost seems two distinctly different rose scents are being reviewed at times. The two (official sample) versions I own are very different and my guess is that the first batch I tried had been in stock from the first release and the second batch a year later was a more recent batch - logical given the fact HK started carrying this line quite some time after SNG. Neither version prompted me to buy a bottle (I like Malle Une Rose & both Lyrics in the rose department - slightly darker) but it has been interesting to follow the various comments about this particular scent which seems something of an anomaly in the TDC line.
    That seems to make sense. I think this one in particular has a LOT LOT LOT of volatiles (in fact I think Luc GABRIEL says something to that effect, that their Vetiver frag for instance, would by it's nature be a lot more 'stable'. This one (Rose Poivree) has a lot of Rose essence; in addition to other delicate naturals) :
    Remember, the ad copy says 'AN ENTIRE FIELD OF ROSE PETALS PER 250ML BOTTLE' Thats a lot of opportunity for 1) 'variation' in crops,
    in addition to:
    2) changes induced from method(s) of storage and
    3) the age of the bottle in question,.

    So right there are Three Seperate VARIABLES acting together to change what is ostensibly THE SAME formula,. It can be confusing to be sure,!

    Somewhat analogous to the Milankovitch cycles of the Earth's Orbit
    1) Obliquity
    2) Eccentricity
    and 3) Precession

    add in the Launder Solar Maximums and Minumums and you have a VERY complex system that is hard to figure out,.

    -----> Same Earth, Sometimes a Snowball, Sometimes a Ball of Fire/Magma and sometimes a Temperate Mother to Humanity,..

    When many variables are coming into play, outcome becomes less and less predictable.

    You seem to be right on the money with your understanding!!!,.
    Last edited by WoodyBois; 21st March 2011 at 12:09 AM.

  16. #16
    WoodyBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by scent View Post
    WoodyBois: Thank you for your extremely detailed analysis and assurance that Rose Poivree has not been changed. The bottle I smelt four years ago smells exactly the same to the one I purchased late last year, so I'm sure it must be the aging process. It's very interesting for you to mentioned the osmanthus absolute. I've read in Perfume of Life that the new, fresh-batch of Osmanthus smells watery and weak compared the rich, old batches. It was the change of the quality of absolute that you mentioned. You are extremely knowledgeable and I must say, you have great tastes in fragrances Again, a big thank you!
    My Pleasure! Thank YOU!!!
    One thing: I did not mention Osmanthus, I have not really experienced that once very much... that was the section where the CEO speaks, explaining their stance on cancelling products (temporarily), rather than change formulas to solve sourcing problems/quality concerns...

    :~)
    Last edited by WoodyBois; 21st March 2011 at 12:16 AM.

  17. #17
    mr. reasonable's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Since my post a few days ago I went back to compare - these are from the two small 10ml (?) sample bottles I bought (primarily because I wanted the aluminium travel pieces).

    I believe the formula may have been attenuated after the first batch - purely speculation - and further that this may have occurred because the edgy aspect of the scent may have 'come out' more than was expected on release. I believe Jean Claude Ellena, for reasons known best to himself, may have decided to alter the weight of one or two ingredients. With this recent comparison I would venture to say the internal harmony or balance of ingredients is more 'polite' than the earlier version, but I can still sense the same peppery, sharp, metallic qulaity - it is just dialled way down.

    I don't think it's unheard of for a perfumer to fine tune a formula after release - one day we may know if this was the case, or if something else was responsible for the difference a number of people have noted - it's interesting to speculate but either way it's not life or death

  18. #18
    WoodyBois's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post
    Since my post a few days ago I went back to compare - these are from the two small 10ml (?) sample bottles I bought (primarily because I wanted the aluminium travel pieces).

    I believe the formula may have been attenuated after the first batch - purely speculation - and further that this may have occurred because the edgy aspect of the scent may have 'come out' more than was expected on release. I believe Jean Claude Ellena, for reasons known best to himself, may have decided to alter the weight of one or two ingredients. With this recent comparison I would venture to say the internal harmony or balance of ingredients is more 'polite' than the earlier version, but I can still sense the same peppery, sharp, metallic qulaity - it is just dialled way down.

    I don't think it's unheard of for a perfumer to fine tune a formula after release - one day we may know if this was the case, or if something else was responsible for the difference a number of people have noted - it's interesting to speculate but either way it's not life or death

    I don't know what a person has to do or say to disseminate a small single actual fact. The Formula IS THE SAME. ATTENUATION as you put is happening in the 'opposite temporal direction'.

    If you are comparing to older ones they are going to smell more,.... MORE....
    Newer ones will NOT HAVE AGED YET. IT IS A CRISIS OF PATIENCE. As Stated.

    As surely as the Sky is BLUE, I hold these truths to be self-evident.

    oh, Also the CEO is unlikly to straight out LIE... This is T.D.C. not 'Monsanto Corporation'.


    Allow me re-introduce you to your own words from above post:

    "The two (official sample) versions I own are very different and my guess is that the first batch I tried had been in stock from the first release and the second batch a year later was a more recent batch - logical given the fact HK started carrying this line quite some time after SNG."
    Last edited by WoodyBois; 23rd March 2011 at 03:58 PM.

  19. #19
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: How different exactly is the new Rose Poivree?

    The last bottle I bought (09) was a good smelling fruity rose, prettier, less animalic, less edgy, with even more of the bread-like coriandre Ellena likes to use, and probably a little more vetiver. Basically, good but less interesting.

    It was significantly different enough from my 2004 juice (which I still have) that I didn't even consider keeping it. My girlfriend is the one who wears it the most and she didn't even think it smelled like the same fragrance.
    Last edited by pluran; 23rd March 2011 at 04:49 PM.

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