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  1. #1

    Default Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Just wondering, given all the discussion of Creed's history:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Olivier-...item4aa9b91965

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Just wondering, given all the discussion of Creed's history:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Olivier-...item4aa9b91965
    This seller operates nearby, I wish I had the money to purchase some of the stuff he/she puts up for auctions. I'm always amazed how some sellers come up with such "mint" items.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Some BNer needs to buy this and give us a write-up.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    This is the oldest I've ever seen!!!
    Gary

  5. #5

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    That does look pretty darn old. Gives some creed-ence to the fact they have been around since before GIT came along in the 80s.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    WHOA! That's a find. Quite a beauty, and cheap at that!
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    A couple of us analyzed a similar bottle few years ago. It was a mexican distributor.

    This is from circa 1965, most probably housing Selection Verte.
    -

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by zztopp View Post
    A couple of us analyzed a similar bottle few years ago. It was a mexican distributor.

    This is from circa 1965, most probably housing Selection Verte.
    I guess this is common sense, but would you speculate the color is due to its age then?
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

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    Granted, we've known each other for some time. It don't take a whole day to recognize sunshine. ~ Common Sense

  9. #9

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    This seller had quite a large collection of vintage (50s/60s) Creeds, but most have since sold.
    His cachet of 'fumes are great.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    When did they add the 1760 to the label?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Just wondering, given all the discussion of Creed's history:http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-Olivier-...item4aa9b91965
    The seller, Jaime, is an excellent man to deal with. I've bought a few vintage Guerlains from him. I think his grandparents owned a large perfume store or wholesale fragrance business in Tijuana. He somehow inherited all the stock and is selling things off on eBay. He auctioned the same Creed Olivier after shave earlier in the week, it went for $75.00. It looks like it is from the early 70's, maybe late 60's. I wonder if at some point one Basenoter will score an old flacon of bespoke fragrance that might predate the aftershave or cologne. I don't vilify Creed at all for confabulating/ amplifying their fragrance history. It does appear that they started in the tailoring business and that fine fragrance was a part of that. The fact that they have a centuries old father to son business legacy is huge as far as marketing goes. The associations of Creed fragrances with icons of the past is likely a blend of fact and fiction. I find this architypal or mythical marketing amusing and fun. It is also quite powerful. Nevertheless, I care more about how the individual Creed fragrances smell/ wear on me.

    Martin

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    If this houses Selection Verte, then that's one amazing aftershave. I suppose it can't predate the days of Olivier running the biz, for an obvious reason. As a design grad, I'm drawn to the simplicity of the bottle and the box. I also notice that the bottle is the same shape as today's Millesime bottles. Really nice.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    It houses a the aftershave version of "Olivier Creed" which was a cologne somewhat similar to Selection Verte designed by Olivier Creed. I have a small period decant of the cologne. I would estimate 1960-1970 for the bottle. The cologne was know merely as "Olivier Creed."

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monsieur_sparkle View Post
    Some BNer needs to buy this and give us a write-up.
    Look forward to hearing your review!!!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Somebody did buy it.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by scentsitivity View Post
    Somebody did buy it.
    i'll let you all know how i like it.

    can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

    and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    i'll let you all know how i like it.

    can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

    and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!
    It's aftershave so don't be all that surprised if there isn't that much aroma, or if the aroma is very fleeting. As mentioned above the seller is 100% professional and legit. I buy from him frequently and he does not misrepresent his items.

    A couple years ago he had Creed EdTs of the same age (same packaging, bottle design, label, etc.) and I bought into a split of one. Nothing to write home about, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    i'll let you all know how i like it.

    can't believe i just paid $99 for something that originally sold for like $5. but if unopened like he claims, that's just a vintage relic i have to add to my collection.

    and if it's vintage Selection Verte, even better!!!
    What makes you think it was really $5 originally?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Indeed, the oldest I've ever seen.
    Support your local Leonberger rescue.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MOONB View Post
    What makes you think it was really $5 originally?
    i saw another picture of this, and the cologne with the red label, and they still had the price tag on them. it said like $6.99 i think.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nineXseven View Post
    A couple years ago he had Creed EdTs of the same age (same packaging, bottle design, label, etc.) and I bought into a split of one. Nothing to write home about, unfortunately.
    i might not even open it. just have it for collector's sake. if it really is unopened, then i probably won't either.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    ^^^ It looks like a screw cap. Go ahead, open and sniff, it won't hurt anything!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    i might not even open it. just have it for collector's sake. if it really is unopened, then i probably won't either.
    A stunning display of willpower!

  24. #24

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcery of Scent View Post
    This seller had quite a large collection of vintage (50s/60s) Creeds, but most have since sold.
    His cachet of 'fumes are great.
    ive been buying from eurofinescents for a while now. my secret is out, i guess!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    In answer to the original question: yes, this is the oldest Creed bottle that I've ever seen. Love to see some older ones, one day.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    In answer to the original question: yes, this is the oldest Creed bottle that I've ever seen. Love to see some older ones, one day.
    www.sarahsperfumes.com under "vintage" she has a few Creeds of the same age that probably came from Jaime.

    Martin

  27. #27

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazznpool View Post
    www.sarahsperfumes.com under "vintage" she has a few Creeds of the same age that probably came from Jaime.

    Martin
    Thanks for that. And check out Guerlain Cuir de Russie ! http://www.sarahsperfumes.com/catalo...oducts_id=3003
    -

  28. #28

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Olivier Creed took over the house in 1973 so this is unlikely to predate that (which makes it more 40 than 50). The seller has had fantastic genuine vintage stock from a stash in the cellar of his eldery relative's perfume shop. He doesn't know much about perfume history though and does tend to elaborate or make things up in order to make them seem more attratctive. A few years ago when selling the cologne mentioned above in this thread he adorned his listing with a story that all Creeds, upon taking over the house had to make a cologne as a right of passage....he larer admitted on these boards after some discussion and excitement that he had made that story up. Stock is all real though....

    This comes from the same period as the aforementioned colognes and at 40 ish years old, are the oldest Creeds which anyone here, including at least one professor of history who has spent quite some time researching, has found. I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are the earliest "creed" labelled perfumes/colognes that were made and mark the beginning of creed as a perfume house as opposed to its earlier existence as a taylor (tayloring is what Creed received royal warrants for, not perfume which makes it somewhat misleading to print them on the side of perfume boxes...)
    Last edited by hirch_duckfinder; 27th March 2011 at 09:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    ^^^ would've convinced me! he's a good storyteller.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    So if this is the oldest, then the guys who said that there's no way Creed made this stuff in like 1700's are onto something then.

    Go figure. Just read this one.

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/261...-Creed-bottles

  31. #31

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Found more older threads. Man some people are jumping all over the place over this subject lol. Thought this was friendly place.

    Are there other cologne sellers who claim this kinda c**p and then play all outraged when called on the stuff?

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardlynoticeable View Post
    So if this is the oldest, then the guys who said that there's no way Creed made this stuff in like 1700's are onto something then.

    Go figure. Just read this one.

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/261...-Creed-bottles
    This debate has been had many times over. There is no answer to the question of where the oldest of the old Creed bottles are. The company has been proven to be over two hundred years old. As most contemporary Creed fans will attest to, the company is notorious for making their older scents next to impossible to find (get any good Vintage Tabarome or Angelique Encens lately?), and whenever they decide to make something unavailable, that usually means it becomes all but a memory to the public. If they don't want people to see what their "vintage" stuff looks like, then people outside the company will very likely never see it. Meanwhile, I'm just glad to see that they've been around for forty years. That's history enough.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Thanks, man, not looking for an argument.

    Saw those older threads, the pros and the con. I got my opinion.

    No offense intended. I say live and let live. My brother-in-law is a Mormon and he's a nice guy lol but he believes in some funky stuff. Man I hope he's not lurking lol.

    I only got one small Creed sample over ebay and and was OK, not bad, good stuff, just not for me, not worth the money. I'll sniff others when in NY, but not right now.

    The stuff with Creed reminds me of this

    http://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax.html#

    Fun stuff.

    Had I not read BN, I'd have never known about the Joyce Hatto of the perfume industry.

    If we had some big shot journalist among us, he could get a big scoop with this Creed topic.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardlynoticeable View Post
    No offense intended.
    Oh no, none taken, nor would I argue with you on the point. Believe me, when I say this has been debated, I'm understating it - I and others have fought veritable wars over it. There are plenty of reasons to suspect that Creed is stretching the truth with their history, and more than one BN member who will illustrate with boundless enthusiasm the ins and outs of that argument. What neither side will ever be able to bring to the table is unshakable proof that Creed is either lying about their past, or entirely truthful. It's a good house to visit and get acquainted with, they make some nice things. Their site does have some material regarding their older Royal Warrants, which have been photographed and documented as authentic, but that's not very surprising as its an ethical business standard in England (where Creed originated). As a tailoring house, these warrants are real. Whether or not their tailoring duties extended into the realm of perfumery as far back as King George III, well, that's not something the salesmen at the Creed boutique could convincingly answer for us. I think, considering all the hubbub this question has stirred among buyers, it might be a good idea for the boys at Creed to dig a little deeper into their archives and put some of these questions to rest. But meanwhile, their modern fragrances are good enough for me personally to not care one way or the other.

    One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from? That question has always intrigued me more than the Creed timeline.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    Olivier Creed took over the house in 1973 so this is unlikely to predate that (which makes it more 40 than 50).......This comes from the same period as the aforementioned colognes and at 40 ish years old, are the oldest Creeds which anyone here, including at least one professor of history who has spent quite some time researching, has found. I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are the earliest "creed" labelled perfumes/colognes that were made and mark the beginning of creed as a perfume house as opposed to its earlier existence as a taylor (tayloring is what Creed received royal warrants for, not perfume which makes it somewhat misleading to print them on the side of perfume boxes...)
    One can say that Olivier Creed is the Baron Münchausen of perfumery.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    I don't think this is the frag equivalent of the Hatto affair because Creed is just claiming that certain frags are old and that certain people wore the frag (perhaps only one time). The point is that they aren't claiming that they are selling "masterpieces," just that some guy who was wealthy, well-known, of certain lineage, etc. wore it for at least a day. Big difference, though of course for marketing purposes it may be very helpful.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    One can say that Olivier Creed is the Baron Münchausen of perfumery.
    Or something a little more positive perhaps, more intune with keeping the family business going and leading the house to the huge commercial success it is experiencing right now...I don't know, maybe the Hiroshi Yamauchi of perfumery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nintendo read The Late Card Era and Toy Company)
    -

  38. #38

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    "One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from?"

    He may have had old records of formulas, but there is also the point that some of them are simply not consistent with what is known historically. For example, if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim. In the other thread (cited by hardlynoticeable), Indie_Guy said this:

    "I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

    Does this make sense?

    1950- Orange Spice is created.
    1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
    1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
    1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
    1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
    2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
    2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


    The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"

    Now if this Pierre Bourdon won't answer basic questions on this topic, then it may end here, because who else would have any interest in providing such information?

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    "One question Creed history buffs should but surprisingly don't ask is, how did Creed go from selling $5 aftershave to very high quality $300 perfumes? If the house really did begin only twenty years ago, who were the master perfumers that brought us the lineup we see today, and where did they come from?"

    He may have had old records of formulas, but there is also the point that some of them are simply not consistent with what is known historically. For example, if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim. In the other thread (cited by hardlynoticeable), Indie_Guy said this:

    "I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

    Does this make sense?

    1950- Orange Spice is created.
    1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
    1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
    1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
    1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
    2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
    2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


    The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"

    Now if this Pierre Bourdon won't answer basic questions on this topic, then it may end here, because who else would have any interest in providing such information?
    Good points. Likewise, Spice and Wood may be a Bourdon creation, too. We just don't know for sure.

    A few things, though (of course ) -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    if someone were to market a Shalimar type of frag that he says is from the mid-1800s, we know that is likely a false claim.
    I disagree. We know that it's partially false in the sense that the materials used in the mid 1800s were not quite the same as those used in a "Shalimar type of frag", but the history of perfumery as a whole is sketchy at best, with massive gaping holes in the narrative, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries. We have the story of how cologne came about in relative detail. We know where bay rum came from, more or less. And from archival testimony, there's plenty of info on the origins of Guerlain and Chanel. But if one were to ask me if a fragrance like Shalimar could have existed in, say, 1825, neither I or anyone else could give a definitive answer. At best we could say it's unlikely, but when pressed would have little to support our answer. Where did any of our contemporary ideas of perfumery come from, really?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Indie_Guy said this:

    "I haven't smelled Orange Spice in a little while, but I could swear I smelled aromachemicals that weren't even around in 1950.

    Does this make sense?
    Yes and no, with a little extra emphasis on no. But first the yes - true, the aromachemicals in Orange Spice probably didn't exist in the 1940s and '50s. But no, that doesn't mean Orange Spice didn't exist in 1950. The exact same fragrance could have been created using what was available to perfumers during that time, and then simply updated as the decades passed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    1950- Orange Spice is created.
    1971-Pierre Bourdon becomes a perfumer.
    1981-Pierre Bourdon creates Kouros (which smells similar to Orange Spice).
    1985-Green Irish Tweed is created.
    1988-Cool Water is created by Pierre Bourdon (which smells similar to Green Irish Tweed).
    2003-Pierre Bourdon creates Montblanc Individuel.
    2005-Original Santal is created (which smells like Individuel).


    The word from those in the know is that Pierre Bourdon definitely had a hand in Green Irish Tweed. If this is true, then it establishes a relationship between him and the house of Creed"
    The timeline really doesn't hold up to anything, mainly because Pierre Bourdon is integral to it. What we do know is that Bourdon mimicked a lot of Creed fragrances in the '80s. What we don't know is whether or not he was just an admirer of the then little-known house of Creed, or an on-again, off-again employee who sold the company out a few times by recreating his own formulas for other competing companies. Luca Turin claims that it's no secret inside the industry that Bourdon created Green Irish Tweed, but his claims are unsubstantiated and fail to measure up to simple logic. If Bourdon created Green Irish Tweed in the early '80s, and then stepped out to create Cool Water for Davidoff, he would have provided the masses with an affordable alternative with the second fragrance, making buying the first somewhat pointless. This wouldn't be taken lightly by any CEO - Olivier would be unhappy with the duplication of his house's most successful scent, and very likely would have nothing to do with Bourdon on a professional level again. This makes his supposed follow-up creations for Creed all the more unlikely (like Original Santal).

    In any case, there are no answers to these questions. It's fun to speculate, though.
    Last edited by MOONB; 28th March 2011 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardlynoticeable View Post
    Are there other cologne sellers who claim this kinda c**p and then play all outraged when called on the stuff?
    hmmm... just joined, and now 6 posts in, all about bashing Creed's history.

    Addict, you should have picked "verynoticeable".

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hirch_duckfinder View Post
    I think it is a reasonable assumption that these are the earliest "creed" labelled perfumes/colognes that were made and mark the beginning of creed as a perfume house as opposed to its earlier existence as a taylor (tayloring is what Creed received royal warrants for, not perfume which makes it somewhat misleading to print them on the side of perfume boxes...)
    at the same time, there's no evidence that they DIDN'T make fragrances either.

    it is quite possible that they made fragrances all along, but just started selling them to the public around 1970.

    here's the thing i can't get over with this Creed conspiracy stuff: if you believe that they were just tailors up until 1970, then you are saying that ALL the copy on their website... all the stories and claims that are still next to every fragrance on www.creedboutique.com... you are claiming that they are 100% fiction?

    that would take balls. not just balls, but GIANT HUGE CAJONES. I mean, you are saying that Olivier and the heads of business operations sat down one day around a big oak table and had a conversation like this:


    "okay, moving onto that fragrance that smells like root beer. seriously, Olivier??"

    "it's a LEATHER, goddamnit. a sweet one!"

    "okay, okay. well let's start brainstorming... Okay I got it. How about we say that we made it for King George back in.... i don't know... 1781? we'll say that he really liked the gloves that Grandpa Creed made for him, and wanted a fragrance to match."

    "are you serious?"

    "no no, this will work. we'll throw in a minuscule detail that people would never imagine that we just made up here.... like... okay, let's say that he liked to rest his chin on his hand while wearing the gloves just to be able to smell the leather."

    "fine. what do we call it?"

    "why, Royal English Leather, of course!"


    maybe i'm a bit naive, or too trusting. but there's a difference between embellishing and what some people are accusing Creed of, which is COMPLETELY FABRICATING THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THEIR COMPANY. I mean, even if they were crazy enough to conjure up extraordinary details like that, they would also have to be incomprehensibly STUPID, knowing that if the truth got out, that their whole company would go to shit.


    BTW - i'm not talking about the celebrity-connections. i could care less about that. that's just a sales tactic from the 90's that they have gotten away from. i'm sure all of that is 50/50 true/false.

    But, making up story after detailed story about their history, is just a big pill to swallow.

    all that said, REL smells awesome and even if it were all BS, i would still wear it and love it. i don't buy these frags for the history blurb, i buy them because they are superior works of perfumery. I am far less concerned about the "truth" of this house than others (some of whom are absolutely obsessed by it, to remain nameless). but i stand by my assertion that what you are accusing them of is borderline psychotic.
    Last edited by Topsail; 28th March 2011 at 02:40 PM.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Those old bottles are great fun to look at! The older I get, the more I enjoy vintage stuff. Do I have to own it? Nope, but it's still fun to gawk at.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    ..but i stand by my assertion that what you are accusing them of is borderline psychotic.
    Maybe that can be a new fragrance for their 2013 lineup....Royal Borderline Psychotic
    We're all in the same game; just different levels. Dealing with the same hell; just different devils.

    Wanted



  44. #44

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    If you are going to change your mind about a Creed fragrance based on whether its history is fake, exaggerated or true, then you really never liked the fragrance to start with.
    I honestly like their creation: Jasmin Imperatrice Eugenie, not because it was allegedly created for Napoleon III's wife, but for its audacious and charming bombast of jasmin, rose, sandalwood and vanilla.
    For me, the historical truth, or lack of it, does not diminish the experience of liking a fragrance. But I completely understand and respect people who demand historical accuracy and expect a level of transparency in the companies they choose to do business with.
    Olivier Creed invented the present Creed fragrance brand as an aspirational, luxury product. He had a business plan, and it works for people who shop at high end stores like Neiman Marcus, Saks, etc. The US seems to be their biggest market, with the downturn in aspirational spending, it will be interesting to see how the brand fares.
    Sorry if I went a bit off topic.

  45. #45

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrison74 View Post
    Maybe that can be a new fragrance for their 2013 lineup....Royal Borderline Psychotic

    LOL.... i hear it will have their signature ambergris base, mixed with "guano" (batshit).

  46. #46

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    If you are going to change your mind about a Creed fragrance based on whether its history is fake, exaggerated or true, then you really never liked the fragrance to start with..
    TRUTH.

    /thread

  47. #47

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Topsail, you seem really worked up by something, I dunno. Chill up, man, life is short ( ;

    This is such a friendly forum, try to fit in lol.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hardlynoticeable View Post
    Topsail, you seem really worked up by something, I dunno. Chill up, man, life is short ( ;

    This is such a friendly forum, try to fit in lol.

    Enough with the act, dude. Your very first post was "hi, i'm new here" and then you went right into bashing Windsor(!?!?) Haha... you couldn't even control yourself on your first post! You should have faked being sane first, then slowly start back into your obsession with Creed.

    Then you went straight into a thread about Creed's history (here) and are starting up again, using different language/writing style to disguise the fact that you are indeed Addict, trying to get around your recent ban.

    IP address check anyone?

  49. #49

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    Enough with the act, dude. Your very first post was "hi, i'm new here" and then you went right into bashing Windsor(!?!?) Haha... you couldn't even control yourself on your first post! You should have faked being sane first, then slowly start back into your obsession with Creed.

    Then you went straight into a thread about Creed's history (here) and are starting up again, using different language/writing style to disguise the fact that you are indeed Addict, trying to get around your recent ban.

    IP address check anyone?
    Topsail is right on target. My thoughts 100% as soon as I read hardlynoticeable's first post.

  50. #50

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    edit - double post
    Last edited by MikeNY; 28th March 2011 at 06:38 PM.

  51. #51

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    One of the things I like about the Creed house is that they are not beholden to a board of directors. They are not beholden to the USA or any other Creed distributor either. Since Olivier is still completely in charge but slowly turning over the reins to Erwin, they have complete artisitic liberty in creating fragrances the way they want to and when they want to. This freedom is bolstered by the fact that Creed is already very successful and not hard up for the next dollar. I appreciate that Creed has a legacy of producing high quality fragrances with the best of ingredients and that theme (and not ONLY profit) is central to their mission.

    Martin

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    ^^^ while the posting history does look mighty suspicious, I'd be reticent to brand hardlynoticeable as Addict in disguise until I see the behavior revert directly into Addict's. as it stands right now, hardlynoticeable is getting the benefit of the doubt from me as a new member poking around the BN forums with no ill intentions. keep in mind that if he is Addict, then he'll either have to revert (perhaps after becoming a basenotes plus member?) or simply remain the somewhat jovial "new" character that he is - neither course of action would serve Addict well.

    now, about the Creed history - Kevin made an excellent point. Look, if you're the kind of person who expects total transparency from the companies you do business with, don't even approach Creed. The company is anything but transparent. They won't even disclose who their perfumers are - you expect them to get into it over their history? Little to no chance. But focus on the fragrance, and the history would be secondary if you find yourself enjoying what you smell. I for one could care less how old the manufacturer of Original Vetiver is. Whether it's a 30 year upstart or a wizened 300 yr-old firm, the stuff they pour into those green faded glass bottles still smells like heaven.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jazznpool View Post
    One of the things I like about the Creed house is that they are not beholden to a board of directors. They are not beholden to the USA or any other Creed distributor either. Since Olivier is still completely in charge but slowly turning over the reins to Erwin, they have complete artisitic liberty in creating fragrances the way they want to and when they want to. This freedom is bolstered by the fact that Creed is already very successful and not hard up for the next dollar. I appreciate that Creed has a legacy of producing high quality fragrances with the best of ingredients and that theme (and not ONLY profit) is central to their mission.

    Martin

    YES! The primary reason Creed's business model appeals to me. They're a rare breed of independent and family-owned operation.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    I've never cared about such claims in any context, so I just sampled some Creed frags over the last few years and was only concerned about the actual scent. However, if you make a claim about something your company did a couple hundred years ago, some people are going to ask how you came to that conclusion, unless there are public records, old newspapers, etc., that can verify it. Thus, while I agree that making up all these claims appears unlikely, one has to wonder why they can't produce some evidence for any claim that pertains to a frag circa 1950 or earlier.

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    I would be surprised if Creed could provide such evidence. Privately-commissioned fragrances don't offer much in the way of traces, particularly where European gentry are concerned. Are you talking about sales receipts?

  55. #55

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Topsail et al, let's give the Addict thing a rest. Bring concerns to mods rather than airing publicly. Please keep the rest of this thread on topic.
    I'm a colognosaurus. Rawr!

  56. #56

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    "Are you talking about sales receipts?"

    That's just one possibility. There are so many. How about any living human being who was involved in some way in making, packaging, shipping, etc. any Creed frag from around 1960 or earlier? Or did Oliver do ever last thing himself? How old is this guy? How about an old bottle? Were they all discarded and none ever showed up anywhere, such as in a country auction? Does this company file taxes? Think about the voluminous records for all kinds of things that go back hundreds of years. There's even quite a bit from ancient Egypt !

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsail View Post
    at the same time, there's no evidence that they DIDN'T make fragrances either.

    it is quite possible that they made fragrances all along, but just started selling them to the public around 1970.

    here's the thing i can't get over with this Creed conspiracy stuff: if you believe that they were just tailors up until 1970, then you are saying that ALL the copy on their website... all the stories and claims that are still next to every fragrance on www.creedboutique.com... you are claiming that they are 100% fiction?

    that would take balls. not just balls, but GIANT HUGE CAJONES. I mean, you are saying that Olivier and the heads of business operations sat down one day around a big oak table and had a conversation like this:


    "okay, moving onto that fragrance that smells like root beer. seriously, Olivier??"

    "it's a LEATHER, goddamnit. a sweet one!"

    "okay, okay. well let's start brainstorming... Okay I got it. How about we say that we made it for King George back in.... i don't know... 1781? we'll say that he really liked the gloves that Grandpa Creed made for him, and wanted a fragrance to match."

    "are you serious?"

    "no no, this will work. we'll throw in a minuscule detail that people would never imagine that we just made up here.... like... okay, let's say that he liked to rest his chin on his hand while wearing the gloves just to be able to smell the leather."

    "fine. what do we call it?"

    "why, Royal English Leather, of course!"


    maybe i'm a bit naive, or too trusting. but there's a difference between embellishing and what some people are accusing Creed of, which is COMPLETELY FABRICATING THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THEIR COMPANY. I mean, even if they were crazy enough to conjure up extraordinary details like that, they would also have to be incomprehensibly STUPID, knowing that if the truth got out, that their whole company would go to shit.


    BTW - i'm not talking about the celebrity-connections. i could care less about that. that's just a sales tactic from the 90's that they have gotten away from. i'm sure all of that is 50/50 true/false.

    But, making up story after detailed story about their history, is just a big pill to swallow.

    all that said, REL smells awesome and even if it were all BS, i would still wear it and love it. i don't buy these frags for the history blurb, i buy them because they are superior works of perfumery. I am far less concerned about the "truth" of this house than others (some of whom are absolutely obsessed by it, to remain nameless). but i stand by my assertion that what you are accusing them of is borderline psychotic.

    I have to respond to this - it's a good argument that deserves some extra attention as far I'm concerned.

    The issue with Creed bottles is a physical matter only. We're talking about the Creed personnel unveiling vintage, 100 year-old + glass bottles, all dusty and grey, and full of blackened perfume. The sort of stuff we see from Chanel and Guerlain. That would be nice. It's easy to sit around and say that it's something Creed should be able to do - it's quite another thing when you actually think about it, take your own hubris out of the equation, and consider just what you're asking for.

    In requiring Creed to produce vintage bottles, you're asking a tailoring and perfumery firm to produce privately-commissioned bottles of perfume - dating back to the 1760s mind you - that were created by Creed employees from generations many times removed. We're going back at least seven generations here, possibly more. How many people have keepsakes from their great, great, great, great, great-grandparents? Even in matters of business, after multiple world wars, family tragedy and in-fighting, the likelihood that the latest generation will have material evidence, unscathed by the years, of privately-commissioned (and therefore extremely limited) fragrances is pretty clearly slim to none. What would survive the years? The formulas for making these fragrances. And if you think the company would turn those over, you're either born yesterday, or you have quite a bit of personal hubris. Let's be realistic here. So the issue at stake in this argument is whether or not the house of Creed would turn over it's own formulas to quell customer doubts about its historical legitimacy. Kind of a catch-22. I could be wrong, but I really don't think anyone on basenotes expects Creed to do that. But it does seem there are members who think bottles from the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s would have survived intact for presentation today. That fails to take into account that these were not, unlike Guerlains or Chanels, mass-produced fragrances. Once you factor in the problem of multiple generations losing physical evidence (either through direct sales, or intentionally), the requirement to produce vintage bottles doesn't seem all that realistic.

    As Topsail regards their print copy from the creed boutique website - he makes a good point. One could question the wisdom of linking one's scents to famous royalty from hundreds of years past. But to say that they're fabricating their history word for word, and just doing it to boost sales - I can tell you that neither England nor France would allow a company like that to survive for long in their midst. These countries are bound to recognize the royal warrants that the company has preserved, as being documentation of the authenticity of the house, and I can promise you that in England, the royal clientele would not only commission Creed fragrances privately (comprising a fraction of the hundreds of scents that Creed produces privately and are never seen by the general public), but would do so with tastes geared toward the traditions of their forebears. Today's Prince William might have a Creed that is similar to that worn by his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather. But the notion that the copy is fake is unprovable, and unlikely. There would be too much to loose, not much to gain. Multi-million dollar businesses like Creed don't take those kinds of risks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    "Are you talking about sales receipts?"

    That's just one possibility. There are so many. How about any living human being who was involved in some way in making, packaging, shipping, etc. any Creed frag from around 1960 or earlier? Or did Oliver do ever last thing himself? How old is this guy? How about an old bottle? Were they all discarded and none ever showed up anywhere, such as in a country auction? Does this company file taxes? Think about the voluminous records for all kinds of things that go back hundreds of years. There's even quite a bit from ancient Egypt !
    Sorry bigsly, didn't mean to leave you out there. Just saw your post.

    I'm trying to take myself out of the mindset that one approaches mega companies like YSL, Guerlain, and Chanel with. Unlike those companies, Creed is vulnerable. While its competitors enjoy massive stock portfolios and public sector legal muscle, Creed is continuously perched as the small bird in a nest of eagles. Their biggest fear is comprised of two words: corporate buyout.

    It strikes me that the opacity of Creed is in large part due to self-protective interests. Unlike Chanel, Creed doesn't have much extra cash to spend on lawyers. Their (upwardly-estimated) annual income of $70 million goes heavily into paying for raw materials, large quantities of aromachemicals, packaging costs, manufacturing costs, and salary expenses. In the scheme of things, even with this kind of profit, they're not playing with big chips. Finances are tight. So in keeping with the usual prerogative of niche luxury brands, Olivier and Erwin have probably decided that less is more. The less they open up about their state of affairs, which would cover everything from what they're putting in the top notes of Silver Mountain Water these days, to details of their long history, to allowing employees and/or former employees to pipe up about what they know, the better off they are. With their history marking headlines as a positive thing, they've taken a sort of political stance: that of commercial offense. Let the controversy serve them, and not the other way around. But if Creed starts getting into question-answering, personnel leaks, tax filings, royal receipts, then it's playing defense, which opens it up to lawsuits, bad publicity, and unwanted distractions from the product itself. Kind of a pandora's box effect, with their current course of action, i.e. opacity over transparency, being the lesser of two evils.
    Last edited by MOONB; 28th March 2011 at 11:53 PM.

  58. #58

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Just saying, this is an incredibly entertaining thread, and surprisingly civil. Nice job boys! And I'm in the camp that could care LESS about their claims. Give me the juice and you keep the marketing blurb, thank you very much!
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

    Obsessions of the Moment- Kristiansand EDC, Green Irish Tweed, Zizan

    Granted, we've known each other for some time. It don't take a whole day to recognize sunshine. ~ Common Sense

  59. #59

    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Let's move into the "real world" here for a moment. The detractors will likely never be satisfied, whereas the supports will always make up some excuse. And most people know nothing about any of this. That leaves people like me, who know but don't really care that much. If Creed can't produce any evidence whatsoever, I can only conclude that the historical claims are all fake or they are hiding something that would be very damaging to their image. Remember, my point is that there appears to be no evidence of fragrance making before the 1960s, if that early. No one is questioning, to my knowledge, their tailoring pre-1960.

    The other problem is that if they did make a few frags for "special" people now and then, why wouldn't they try to increase sales. The idea that you make a frag for perhaps a few people, and then don't make it again until the 1980s or later is laughable. And why don't they simply address these points? Even if they lost all their evidence in a fire in 1959, they could tell us that, but they choose to remain silent, which to me speaks volumes !

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    Default Re: Is this the oldest Creed bottle you've ever seen ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Let's move into the "real world" here for a moment. The detractors will likely never be satisfied, whereas the supports will always make up some excuse. And most people know nothing about any of this. That leaves people like me, who know but don't really care that much. If Creed can't produce any evidence whatsoever, I can only conclude that the historical claims are all fake or they are hiding something that would be very damaging to their image. Remember, my point is that there appears to be no evidence of fragrance making before the 1960s, if that early. No one is questioning, to my knowledge, their tailoring pre-1960.

    The other problem is that if they did make a few frags for "special" people now and then, why wouldn't they try to increase sales. The idea that you make a frag for perhaps a few people, and then don't make it again until the 1980s or later is laughable. And why don't they simply address these points? Even if they lost all their evidence in a fire in 1959, they could tell us that, but they choose to remain silent, which to me speaks volumes !
    Laughable?

    The company went public with their perfumery post 1973. Prior to that, all fragrances were private commissions. This means that the same rules that applied to the manufacturing process of the 1760s hold sway all the way up until the 1960s. The clients who received the privately commissioned scents did so under the auspices of privacy. They have the fragrances, and Creed has the formulas. They're not holding out on multiple bottles of some scent they produced for William Holden or Catherine Deneuve. They sold them. To those people. With the explicit understanding between themselves and their clients that these scents would never be released to the public as long as they're alive.

    Once the celebrities who commissioned these scents have passed on, and significant time has elapsed, the scents are fair game for the public. Hence their release decades later. As far as I can tell, from the answers that Luis and other reps have given, and the warrants posted on their site, Creed has simply addressed these points.

    Regarding increasing profits - up until they abandoned the tailoring end of things, that was their main source of profit - not perfumery. The company was doing fine making clothing, up until times changed and they changed their product line

    See my amended posting earlier in this thread above for more.
    Last edited by MOONB; 29th March 2011 at 12:13 AM.

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