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  1. #1
    oliverandco
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    Default problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Hello,

    i m having a problem with the weight of some drops.

    I have to weight 18 drops of one essece.
    i put the scale on tare 0.00g. i add 18 drops. ok. weight itīs 0.38 for example.
    if i repeat in the same way, same quantity drops and same procedure, the result itīs not the same than before. 0.35g instead of the first 0.38g.
    if i repeat again, 0.33g.

    scale itīs not high level, but itīs nice. TANITA 1579.


    what happens? i am becoming crazy !!!! :-(

  2. #2

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    The drops are not the same size? Go by the weight not the number of drops
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  3. #3
    oliverandco
    Guest

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    itīs the same size. same product.

  4. #4

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    No two drops are the same, no matter how hard you try to make them uniform, so this is a highly inaccurate way of measuring. It's not surprising that the weights were different each time you weighed the same number of drops. In fact, it's surprising that they turned out as close as they did.

    If your formula calls for "drops", presumably all of the quantities are in drops, so you have a set of ratios. You can then use these ratios to figure out the weight of each material you would need to make the desired total weight. If you need an accuracy of 0.01g, you're much better off working strictly by weight.
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  5. #5
    oliverandco
    Guest

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Doc Elly,

    i work in this way.

    first i make small formula, i mean i put 5 or 10 g alcohol.
    i add drops.

    if i like, i multiply and set the concentration.

    for example:

    10 g alcohol

    3 drops bergamote
    3 drops hedione
    7 drops citral
    1 drop vetiver

    and so on.



    now i want to reproduce it for 50 or 100 ml

    so, basically i multiply all of these drops by 5, 6, 7, 8... depending concentration i want to achieve.

    i also adapt the alcohol weight according 50 or 100 ml.




    what do you mean with ratios? i lose

  6. #6

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverandco View Post
    Doc Elly,

    i work in this way.

    first i make small formula, i mean i put 5 or 10 g alcohol.
    i add drops.

    if i like, i multiply and set the concentration.

    for example:

    10 g alcohol

    3 drops bergamote
    3 drops hedione
    7 drops citral
    1 drop vetiver

    and so on.


    now i want to reproduce it for 50 or 100 ml

    so, basically i multiply all of these drops by 5, 6, 7, 8... depending concentration i want to achieve.

    i also adapt the alcohol weight according 50 or 100 ml.


    what do you mean with ratios? i lose
    You may have already figured this out, but let me see if I can help you here. When you make your first trial formulation, you should record the mass of each component you add. This will allow you to make very accurate reproductions and give you the best results scaling up to larger batches.

    If you didn't record the mass of each component you used, but you do know that the total mass of fragrance ingredients is 0.38 grams, you can calculate the mass of each component since your recipe calls for "drops" of everything.

    For example, you have 3 parts bergamot, 3 parts hedione, 7 parts citral, and 1 part vetiver in your example. That makes 14 parts in your formulation. If that totals 0.38 g, this means you have approximately:

    0.38 * (3/14) = 0.08 g bergamot
    0.38 * (3/14) = 0.08 g hedione
    0.38 * (7/14) = 0.19 g citral
    0.38 * (1/14) = 0.03 g vetiver

    Add them all up, and you get your 0.38 g fragrance ingredients. If you want to scale the batch up, just use your 10:0.38 mass ratio of carrier:fragrance, and the 3:3:7:1 ratio of your 4 fragrance components.

    "Drops" are an inaccurate measurement, because drop size is influenced by everything from pressure applied to the pipet bulb to the surface tension of the fluid being measured. If you want to be able to duplicate your work as closely as possible, use a less subjective measurement, like mass.

    Hope this helps!

  7. #7

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Quote Originally Posted by nardhelain View Post
    You may have already figured this out, but let me see if I can help you here. When you make your first trial formulation, you should record the mass of each component you add. This will allow you to make very accurate reproductions and give you the best results scaling up to larger batches.

    If you didn't record the mass of each component you used, but you do know that the total mass of fragrance ingredients is 0.38 grams, you can calculate the mass of each component since your recipe calls for "drops" of everything.

    For example, you have 3 parts bergamot, 3 parts hedione, 7 parts citral, and 1 part vetiver in your example. That makes 14 parts in your formulation. If that totals 0.38 g, this means you have approximately:

    0.38 * (3/14) = 0.08 g bergamot
    0.38 * (3/14) = 0.08 g hedione
    0.38 * (7/14) = 0.19 g citral
    0.38 * (1/14) = 0.03 g vetiver

    Add them all up, and you get your 0.38 g fragrance ingredients. If you want to scale the batch up, just use your 10:0.38 mass ratio of carrier:fragrance, and the 3:3:7:1 ratio of your 4 fragrance components.

    "Drops" are an inaccurate measurement, because drop size is influenced by everything from pressure applied to the pipet bulb to the surface tension of the fluid being measured. If you want to be able to duplicate your work as closely as possible, use a less subjective measurement, like mass.

    Hope this helps!
    This would be ideal if all the oils were the same density -- which they are not.

    1 drop of Vetiver or Sandalwood, for example, will weigh significantly more than, say, 1 drop of Bergamot. Not to mention when you have a diluted material, this also lessens the weight. Agarwood 5% will be lighter than Agarwood Absolute, for example. This is why, in my opinion, it is crucial to weigh as you go.

    Another thought on the topic of each drop of the same material from the same source weighing different... When making blends on such a small scale, this makes for more inconsistencies than say if you were to make large quantities where 1% of your blend weighs to at least a gram. On a minute level where individual drops make a difference, weight will be noticeably different.

    On a drop-by-drop level, I don't think 0.08 and 0.09 makes much of a difference. At some point, your blend has to be high enough in weight for percentages to mean something. Or just get a very high quality jewelry scale that measures down to 0.001 g accurately.

  8. #8
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverandco View Post
    .. i m having a problem with the weight of some drops.
    Drops are never of the same size or weight. But it has been defined, f.e. by Mandy Aftel, that 1 drop of a standard 1 ml pipette is about 0.025 ml. My pasteur pipette (eye dropper) has about half the volume.

    Yo have to do two measurements.

    1. Tare the scale, put an empty bottle "A" and note the value within first seconds. Repeat it some times, note the values. Put another bottle on the scale, tare. Add again bottle "A" and measure. You can only rely on the range of values, which does not change.

    2. If the ballance works within 0.01g then: Drop 20 drops alcohol with your pipette and calculate the weight of 1 drop. Do it many times. So you wil find out the average weight of one drop. You can also calculate the volume of 1 drop (g) by dividing its weight through 0.8 (g/ml) - if it is 96% alcohol.

    I guess that the precision of your scale is at best +/- 0.02g which means in a range of 2 drops - i.e. the value you measure can differ by 2 drops from the actual value. At best.

    But this is all only to find out about drops, weights and the scale.
    .................................................. ..............................

    For working, you should weigh each time after you have added some drops of one material 3, 7 ... and note it, because as "scentless_apprenrtice" says, each material has another weight.

    But here it is important that your scale does have the possibility to disable "automatic shutdown" and maybe can run on external power supply. My scale f.e needs about 1 hour to warm up for the maximal precision. Sometimes I let it on for whole day.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    I honestly hate drops
    they take too much time!
    AND they are very inaccurate

  10. #10
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I honestly hate drops they take too much time!
    Yes sure, that's right. But even Jean Carles recommends drops for the first sketch (if I remember rightly). If you're tired in the evening and want to try an idea with the10% dilutions within minutes, glancing over the bottles, it's fun to drip.
    So I even made a perfume of about 10 components, three quarters of an hour before I went to the theater. These little funs are part of the joy of making own perfumes.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Are you calibrating the scale before use?

  12. #12
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    I should - but I do not. My scale can only be calibrated with a 500g weight, of which the cheapest comming in question costs about 67 Euro: OIML F2 500g/0.008g . I have seen them on US market for less than half the price, but there again are the shipping costs.

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    Last edited by Ivor Joedy; 15th August 2019 at 10:39 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    I would get very scared if you obtain the exactly same weight in all the tests that you run in a semi analytical scale...

  14. #14
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    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Yes sure, that's right. But even Jean Carles recommends drops for the first sketch (if I remember rightly). If you're tired in the evening and want to try an idea with the10% dilutions within minutes, glancing over the bottles, it's fun to drip.
    So I even made a perfume of about 10 components, three quarters of an hour before I went to the theater. These little funs are part of the joy of making own perfumes.
    Well, yes.
    For small, momentary projects..
    then drops are of course, fine.

  15. #15

    Default Re: problems with scale - drops / drops - scale

    I find drops useful for checking one material up against another... i will often weight the one material and then start adding drop by drop of the second material. If the two will work together i re-do the experiment weighting both materials.

    for more exact/complicated experiments drops can not be used due to the difference in weight (As mentioned above)

    Thinking about it i actually think my silly jewlery scale differs with humidity and temperature.




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