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  1. #1
    Dependent Akahina's Avatar
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    Default IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    It has only been the last couple of years that I have gotten interested in wearing fragrances. I used to use just a couple and only rarely. Why? Because when I would walk through the fragrance department in department stores (which seem to always be by the entrance), I would always choke up! I would instinctively hold my sleeve or a handkerchief over my nose and walk through quickly. I would sneeze or my nose would start running. I have always had allergies and fragrances bothered me.

    A few years ago I noticed that I could actually walk through stores and not have a reaction. My assumption was that I had grown out of some sort of allergy.

    So, a couple of years ago I started sampling fragrances and have only had a problem with one sampled fragrance.

    Reading about the IFRA's restrictions I have wondered for some time now if I was one of those allergic to oakmoss or some other restricted ingredient. There is no way I will know for sure if it is one of those ingredients that I was allergic to of if I have indeed grown out of some allergy as I have aged.

    So, I have come to the conclusion that even though the pallet that perfumers have to work with has been limited to some degree and that some classic fragrances have had to be reformulated, the end result may be that more people can really enjoy fragrances without having a reaction. This includes people that wear fragrances and those that have to smell fragrances that others wear.

    Wondering about your thoughts on this topic...
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    6. Byredo Bullion
    7. Masque Milano Russian Tea


    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
    Currently wearing: Sycomore (new) by Chanel

  2. #2

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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Certain allergies do improve with time (others do not), but it sounds more as if you got used to perfume, since your reaction was across the board.

    Note also that IFRA restrictions are only because of skin rashes, not because of asthma and breathing problems. I doubt you get breathing problems when you drink jasmine tea (jasmine having been restricted) or cut an orange peel (ditto).

    cacio

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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    While i do see your point on this issue, you cant get away from the fact that most of the big perfume houses have had to fin alternate ingredients for fragrances and thus, have changed the overall smell. Not drasticly I mean but enough that experienced noses would pick up on. So when you say that companies gain customers with the new reformulations, they also loose them.

  4. #4
    Dependent Akahina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    Certain allergies do improve with time (others do not), but it sounds more as if you got used to perfume, since your reaction was across the board.

    Note also that IFRA restrictions are only because of skin rashes, not because of asthma and breathing problems. I doubt you get breathing problems when you drink jasmine tea (jasmine having been restricted) or cut an orange peel (ditto).

    cacio
    My reaction was not across the board, perhaps I did not make that point clearly. I did have a couple that I wore, but when walking through a store with hundreds of scents mingled together in the air I would choke up. I had a disincentive to sample anything because just being around something in the air was unpleasant.
    Some Favorites
    1. Amouage Epic man
    2. Dior Leather Oud
    3. Perris Monte Carlo Oud Imperial Black
    4. Le Labo Patchouli 24
    5. Amouage Opus VII
    6. Byredo Bullion
    7. Masque Milano Russian Tea


    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
    Currently wearing: Sycomore (new) by Chanel

  5. #5
    Dependent Akahina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by fragranceman88 View Post
    While i do see your point on this issue, you cant get away from the fact that most of the big perfume houses have had to fin alternate ingredients for fragrances and thus, have changed the overall smell. Not drasticly I mean but enough that experienced noses would pick up on. So when you say that companies gain customers with the new reformulations, they also loose them.
    I agree. That is one of the minuses for sure and I had that thought too. So there are pluses and minuses to these restrictions. I for one can now enjoy fragrances like never before. Sad that the great scents of the past have been changed to some degree. But, I can breath better and perhaps others around us can too?

    Thanks for your reply. The point of this thread was to weigh those pluses and minuses in an open forum.
    Some Favorites
    1. Amouage Epic man
    2. Dior Leather Oud
    3. Perris Monte Carlo Oud Imperial Black
    4. Le Labo Patchouli 24
    5. Amouage Opus VII
    6. Byredo Bullion
    7. Masque Milano Russian Tea


    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
    Currently wearing: Sycomore (new) by Chanel

  6. #6
    hednic's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    To the Op: It's possible that you might have been allergic to a specific ingredient no longer used, but more likely your body has changed and grown out of a specific allergic reaction.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Are you sure that the allergic reaction was due to specific elements? Did this happened only at a store or when applying the fragrances too? Because maybe the reason wasn`t the elements, but the excess of fragrance in the air. It`s a common practice to spray the fragrances they are promoting in the air of the store in order to induce the client to get interested on that fragrance and, this way, increase the sales of that perfume. In this case, we would be blaming the wrong thing.

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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akahina View Post
    ...........even though the pallet that perfumers have to work with has been limited to some degree........

    ............the end result may be that more people can really enjoy fragrances without having a reaction.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Akahina View Post
    ............Sad that the great scents of the past have been changed to some degree.........


    1. The effects on perfumers are far more than "limited to some degree".

    2. Many of the great scents have been changed far more than “to some degree”. Many of them have been changed beyond recognition or watered down to pale watercolors in vegetal shades.

    3. Most of the restrictions have little to do with genuine concern for your health. Most of it is based on politics, and most of the reasons given are not enough reason to ban or restrict things anyway.

    4. Many of the new things in the perfumes are not necessarily any better for you than the things that are restricted (which probably aren't bad for you in the first place).

    5. The whole thing is mostly a waste of money and time.

    Last edited by pluran; 23rd November 2011 at 08:21 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Hmmm....

    The IFRA thing is bumming me out. I make and sell jewelry. I work in gold, silver and bronze. A small amount of people get skin that turns color when they wear any one of these metals, it doesn't mean they are allergic. In most cases it means their skin chemistry is oxidizing the metal because of the acidic food they eat. They just need to let the metal oxidize and it will stop, or they can coat the metal with clear nail polish if they think its too unsightly. But it doesn't mean they are truly allergic. Tthere is a small, small amount of people who do have legitmate skin allergies -- which is probably less than those allergic to mascara and mangoes. Should I stop using metals because of a few people?

    My opinion, whether its metal, fragrance, peanuts, or pet dander is that people need to learn through life what they have reactions to, and to be able to distinguish if its hard core allergy or a minor reaction and then learn what choices they have on how to deal. With fragrance, people can spray clothes and not skin. With jewelry people can coat the metal with clear nail polish. And just like with fragrance or cats, sometimes it takes a couple weeks for the skin/nose to get used to whatever it is in contact with. If they truly are allergic, then avoid the fragrance or wear a synthetic.

    In regard to IFRA, the whole thing reminds me more of whats happening in Big Pharma. Big Pharma is big business. If lobbyists for certain companies can get certain ingredients banned, then their synthetic will be the thing to buy, forcing the market in their favor.

    The whole IFRA thing smells hinky/stinky to me.
    Last edited by firehorse; 23rd November 2011 at 08:30 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    It all has to be political. Otherwise a simple allergy warning label on the box and bottle would be sufiicient. And the fragrance sections in stores make me sneeze a lot and make my eyes water. But I'm sure it is the sheer volume of fragrance in the air. I've never had an allergic reaction to an individual wearing fragrance.

    Ironically, one fragrance made me sneeze a little when I wore it. Guess what? It was the new formulation of Halston Z-14 WITHOUT Oakmoss in it. Not to mention it just sucked, so I got rid of it. Now I am on the hunt for Z-14 with Oakmoss in it, not just because it doesn't make me sneeze, but because it is an awesome scent. A work of art that is in limited supply and will likely never be made the right way again (because of restrictions put in place).

    I'm tired of people telling me what is and isn't good for me. Then placing restrictions, bans etc on products while pretending like they actually care about that, when it's clear to me they have a hidden agenda.
    Last edited by jclaxton78; 23rd November 2011 at 09:20 PM.
    "You do not merely want to be considered just the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones who do what you do." J.G.

  11. #11

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    PS, I got a major rash a couple weeks ago from applying Vaseline intensive care unscented lotion on my body. So I took it back to Walmart, went online and bought grapeseed oil to use as a moisturizer. No problems, no chemicals. However, I'm not looking to ban whatever is in that lotion. I just won't ever use it.
    "You do not merely want to be considered just the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones who do what you do." J.G.

  12. #12
    AromiErotici
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    I have nothing good to say about the restrictions. I do not believe, for a moment , that their decisions to ban anything pertain to a genuine concern about my health.

    I believe it's all about the buck. Nothing more. Now they can peddle the current ingredients. They make mucho denaro and we buy inferior perfumes.

  13. #13

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Just as the fragrance industry is all about money (what commerce is not?), think of pharmeceuticals.

    Are pharm companies in business to make people healthier? No way! Just think if they came up with a cure for the common cold. All those cold remedies, which sell in the billions, would go away. Ditto for chemotherapy drugs. If cancer was cured, there were be no need for all those sales reps in doctor's offices. Many doctors, by the way, are in bed with the pharm industry, and many must disclose this relationship for ethical reasons, esp. if you might be a guinea pig as one of their patients.

    Limiting the ingredients or removing scents is not about health; it's about money.

    I walk down the home fragrance aisle of a grocery store is trip into noxious synthetic fragrances in home deodorisers and cleaners. Can anyone make all those scents go away?

    I have allergies (and even some fragrance allergies) and have learned to cope with them. I don't demand the world revolve around my personal sensitivities.
    "No elegance is possible without it...perfume is a part of you." Gabrielle "Coco" Chanel
    Currently wearing: Rose Ambre by Fragonard

  14. #14

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    @ OP: I had the same problem. Funny, though, cause I could even wear a couple of heavy-hitting fragrances like Drakkar or Joop! But walking through the fragrance department was torture. I could hardly breathe! Several years later I noticed I could walk through without a problem. No more itchy watery eyes, gasping for breath, or anything. But that was in the 90's before IFRA really started messing with everything.

    I think you out-grew it, too. Congratulations!!
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  15. #15

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Are you sure it was even allergic, or perhaps it was the 80's and it's Nuclear scents!!!
    “Perfume is like cocktails without the hangover, like chocolate without the calories, like an affair without tears, like a vacation from which you never have to come back.”

  16. #16
    Dependent Akahina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiptos View Post
    Are you sure it was even allergic, or perhaps it was the 80's and it's Nuclear scents!!!
    Not at all sure and I don't know exactly how I could be sure...all food for thought though.
    Some Favorites
    1. Amouage Epic man
    2. Dior Leather Oud
    3. Perris Monte Carlo Oud Imperial Black
    4. Le Labo Patchouli 24
    5. Amouage Opus VII
    6. Byredo Bullion
    7. Masque Milano Russian Tea


    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
    Currently wearing: Sycomore (new) by Chanel

  17. #17
    Dependent Akahina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by firehorse View Post
    Hmmm....
    Should I stop using metals because of a few people?

    If they truly are allergic, then avoid the fragrance or wear a synthetic.
    Devil's advocate here. No, you don't have to stop making jewelery. The person wearing it has the reaction, not those around them.

    As to fragrances, people around a person wearing a fragrance have to smell it and if it causes a problem for people should they be forced to not be able to breath or sneeze uncontrollably when around you? I accept your point of view but there is a flaw in the reasoning I think.

    Perhaps it is politics but politics is the way of the world. Anarchy is not a good alternative...
    Some Favorites
    1. Amouage Epic man
    2. Dior Leather Oud
    3. Perris Monte Carlo Oud Imperial Black
    4. Le Labo Patchouli 24
    5. Amouage Opus VII
    6. Byredo Bullion
    7. Masque Milano Russian Tea


    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
    Currently wearing: Sycomore (new) by Chanel

  18. #18

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akahina View Post
    but when walking through a store with hundreds of scents mingled together in the air I would choke up. I had a disincentive to sample anything because just being around something in the air was unpleasant.
    The first part is perfectly understandable - the air in some of the bigger stores is noxious with fumes, but your second point is a little sad, it's like not wanting to try a fine wine with dinner because you had the misfortune to be dragged through a booze barn late on Friday night after gallons of beer and a few shooters had been spilled into the carpet

    As far as IFRA goes, I think pluran put's it pretty succinctly and in a related thread Nukapai outlines things very concisely.

    Make no mistake about this - the IFRA 'regulations' have effectively destroyed the perfume industry. It is as simple as that. The severe limitations on, or outright ban of, a number of key natural ingredients that are indispensible to such genres as chypres and fougeres, and a lot of florals, can only breed watered down, synthetically enhanced apologies. Replicants.

    The simplest analogy I can think of is telling people that you can still attend orchestral concerts but the cello section will be replaced by one cellist and guy playing a keyboard with some sampled cello sounds to make it feel like the real thing. Knock citrus back and you can safely wipe out the flute section, heliotrope - okay the harp player gets fired too. It may still look like an orchestra, and sound like an orchestra - sort of - but the depth has gone and so has the sparkle.

    Of course, if you have never heard a full orchestra before, then no problem. The companies who control the industry know this - they are banking on it. Once the grumbling from the 'older customers' quietens down there will be a whole new generation of shoppers who never knew the original and will therefore settle with whatever is put in front of them. They, quite literally, do not know what they are missing.

  19. #19

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    With regard to allergies, I have come to the conclusion (a not very scientific one, I admit ) that many allergies (mostly no matter against what) are a sign of a suppressed immune system (food - e.g. simple sugars, environmental influences, plastic/toxins exposure etc.). I had suffered from hayfever for more than 20 years and got rid of it from one year to the other and it has never come back again. This does not cover the whole topic here, but I think is an aspect/thought that belongs here.

  20. #20
    rickbr's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akahina View Post
    Devil's advocate here. No, you don't have to stop making jewelery. The person wearing it has the reaction, not those around them.

    As to fragrances, people around a person wearing a fragrance have to smell it and if it causes a problem for people should they be forced to not be able to breath or sneeze uncontrollably when around you? I accept your point of view but there is a flaw in the reasoning I think.

    Perhaps it is politics but politics is the way of the world. Anarchy is not a good alternative...
    Again here, the case is not the fragrance itself, but the dosage. People should be educated to not overapply intense scents. Banning important materials because of allergies caused to the exaggeration of some is absurd. Is like banning some dishes because a few one don`t have moderation in eating them.

  21. #21

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akahina View Post
    Devil's advocate here. .... Anarchy is not a good alternative...
    In your original post you said walking into perfume stores caused you to choke but that you are having an easier time now. And you tried to connect your experience to IFRA's restrictions. Someone pointed out above that the allergies IFRA referenced is on skin contact not breathing.

    I have a problem smelling some fragrances, does that mean I support IFRA's restrictions? No. More people are allergic to smelling kitten dander. Should kittens be banned too?

    The consumer has choices, they are not victims of oakmoss and heliotrope and its not anarchy to bring this up. The consumer can choose not to walk in perfume stores and instead limit their fragrance smelling through ordering samples of their choosing. The consumer can take a zyrtec...(this is what I do for my cats and orris root). The consumer can wear fragrance on clothes not skin. The consumer can get expose themselves to a note slowly over a few weeks till they get used to it. And if none of this is satisfying, the consumer can choose to avoid a note entirely and instead enjoy other fragrances.

    ETA: I met a woman whose favorite flower is peony. She loves them and grows the around her yard. Last week she found out touching causes her skin to break out in a rash the way some do with poison oak. She has now learned she can't touch the flower, but she still is going to enjoy looking at them. Should IFRA ban peonies? She can smell them, but she can't rub it on her skin. I'm the same way with mangoes and mascara, should IFRA ban those too? I can eat a mango, I can smell one, ... I just cant touch the skin of one.
    Last edited by firehorse; 24th November 2011 at 03:53 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Completely agree with firehorse!
    Some perfumes have actually given me contact dermatitis, but that's a mild inconvenience. I just don't put them on my skin any more. I take a cetirizine tablet every day because my skin is so reactive, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy perfume, nor would I want any scent ingredient banned just because I can't wear it myself.
    But the reformulations are surely just as much about money as about safety. If you sell something with a cheaper ingredient, and not many people will know about or object to it, then many companies will do just that.
    It's true that one day, nobody will actually remember what the great perfumes smelled like (unless they are among the very few privileged to visit the Osmoteque). Then the complaints about reformulations will stop. Sadly.
    I love the analogy of the orchestra, mr reasonable. My own specialty is English literature, and one of my favourite authors is Jane Austen. Imagine the nightmare if every publisher were free to change, say, Pride and Prejudice at will. Some publisher's editor thinks that Elizabeth Bennett ought to be quiet and submissive, while Mr. Darcy is rewritten so that he's charming and friendly. New readers won't know the difference, they might just think it's a not very good piece of writing.
    But I would know! And I would protest! But when all the English majors were gone .... ?
    Same thing with perfume. We must continue to protest loud and long about the alteration of that piece of cultural heritage that is perfume. IMO.

  23. #23
    AromiErotici
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Come on people, they are saving you from yourselves !!!

  24. #24
    New Member sarafina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    This is interesting to me. I abandoned wearing scent in the early '90's because I began to experience breathing difficulties when passing thru a perfume department, or if in proximity to someone wearing a great deal of scent, or perhaps a particular scent, that bothered me. Men's scents were more irritating than women's scents, in general. The whole idea of scent became unappealing and I quit wearing it altogether.

    Currently I am searching for some scents to start a new wardrobe after a 20 year hiatus. I have been pleased that I can go to a perfume counter and check out scents with out gagging and gasping.

    I still can't breath when my mother wears white linen... That one just closes down the pipes instantly. I was so happy when she found a scent in Spain that's citrus based. I am ordering her more online so she keeps wearing it and doesn't go back to the estee lauder...

    I have no idea if it is any result of these bans. I would guess not, since one of the base notes in all my past favorites was oakmoss...

    But still... interesting.

    I would think that perhaps the industry has made these restriction in an effort to combat the society wide turning against scent? So many public places have prohibited the wearing of scent as a result of the discomfort it caused the non wearers. That can't have been good for business. Don't know that these restrictions have improved that issue. Sounds less than clear cut.

  25. #25

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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    sarafina:

    White Linen is an aldehydic bomb. Could that be what you don't really like? Try Chanel no 5 and No 22 (other aldehyde heavy perfumes, though not as much as white linen) and see what happens. Even more so, Stephen Jones by Comme des Garcons (available at Barneys).

    The industry certainly hasn't banned natural substances because of the discomfort caused to people. I bet few people really experience discomfort when smelling orange peel, jasmine, or muguet. But that's what was banned, not calone or ambroxan.

    cacio

  26. #26
    New Member sarafina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    An aldehydic bomb huh? I totally believe you but I am confused. If I don't like the white linen, the aldehydic bomb, then why are the perfumes I remember liking the most seemingly described as aldehydic;
    Caleche- citrus-rose-aldehydes-musk
    Ivoire- green metallic,aldehydic lemon

    I don't really understand what makes a scent 'aldehyde'. I still have a lot of reading to do I guess ; -)

    Casio, I saw your suggestions in reply to my request thread for help finding a new fragrance and have noted them. Thanks!

    Ok, enough thread drift.

    If it isn't really allergic reactions and market repercussions then I am not understanding what is driving these restrictions. And how are they enforced. I know of no international body that controls substance use in any industry. They may make suggestions, but forbid usage? Is it a case of the self regulating body in the industry being able to withhold some stamp of approval? What would the political motives be?

  27. #27

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
    If it isn't really allergic reactions and market repercussions then I am not understanding what is driving these restrictions. And how are they enforced. I know of no international body that controls substance use in any industry. They may make suggestions, but forbid usage? Is it a case of the self regulating body in the industry being able to withhold some stamp of approval? What would the political motives be?
    Read Part I (Below), Part II and the responses - that should be enough to get you started. Then read between the lines

    http://www.basenotes.net/content/731...tor-Of-IFRA-UK

  28. #28
    New Member sarafina's Avatar
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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    So, after an initial read of all the interviews with the director of IFRA and the Guerlain noses I am left with this general picture;

    Historically the makers of perfume have been rabid about secrecy of formulation and process and refused to enter into any kind of cooperative relationship with each other. As a result of this the natural leaders in the industry were unprepared for the concerted attack by the artificial/synthetic ingredients manufacturers.

    Those companies have funded and supported legislation to ban some natural ingredients. They have funded and supported the (then) BFA (now) IFRA as a public face. In response to the legislation IFRA claims to be the supporter of the industry, in its work to proactively respond to concerns about ingredients and their effect on the consumer, by self regulating the use of such ingredients.

    The stick they use to turn their "guidelines" effectively into statutes can be summed up by this quote,
    "a side effect of the bad science is that if a perfumer has liability insurance, and they are sued, the insurer may say that they're in violation of "industry standards" and the insurance will be voided."

    Anya McCoy

    So they have manufacturers of the perfumes running scared from litigation. They have legislation in action to limit the use of naturals. They have created an artificial need for synthetic ingredients and the subsequent market value of their products. They have empowered a front for defusing any attempt by the perfume industry to regulate itself in a way that makes sense (ie by labeling).

    Have I got that pretty much right?

    Pretty slick!
    Last edited by sarafina; 1st December 2011 at 01:32 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Sarafina, thank you for a really interesting post. The fear of litigation is ruining so many goods and services now - when I broke my pelvis, the nurse who came to see me in A & E refused to help me on to the examination table because she was worried about being sued!
    But I digress ... I think you're right about one of the main drivers of this situation, but I'm still not clear why the perfumers couldn't get around the legislative threat by providing clear labels. Almost everything I buy from the supermarket these days has something like "produced in a factory where nuts are processed" or "may contain nuts", etc. So they have effectively placed themselves beyond the possibility of being sued. It's up to the consumer (me) to read the label and act accordingly. Which I do, because my daughter's partner has a serious nut allergy which could kill him.
    So why can't perfumers do the same? The fact that they don't makes me suspect, as others have also pointed out, that costs figure largely in this fiasco. Synthetics are cheap. So profits are larger. Isn't this also behind the thinking?
    Last edited by redrose; 1st December 2011 at 09:42 AM. Reason: omitted key word

  30. #30

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    Default Re: IFRA's banned/restricted ingredients: some thoughts.

    Sarafina:

    I think you are right in your assessment of the main reason for the IFRA regulations. IFRA is the association of aromachemical companies (most perfumes are developed in aromachemical companies, very few brands do things in-house).

    This could also explain a little the point made by redrose. For most companies, the perfumers cannot get around the ban because they are employed by the aromachemical companies themselves. this is not true for all, though.

    cacio

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Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000