Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 37 of 37
  1. #1

    Default When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    I guess most people here will know what a Fougère is but I've linked to Wiki for those who want to refresh their memories.

    I'm a fan of this style and have created several, however it seems I may have managed to create one inadvertently. . .

    I've mentioned a couple of times that I've been working on an Absinthe fragrance - based around Artemisia absinthium and made without anise so that it does not end up smelling just like the drink Absinthe.

    I was very pleased with the resulting fragrance, which I've called Artemis, I've had it out with a few people on test. One of them, an experienced Basenotes aficionado with a wardrobe of more than 200 fragrances, was kind enough to send back this review:

    The Artemis is quite shocking on 1st sniff - the topnotes are so sharp and bitter! It settles down quickly though into a very original and distinctive green fougere. Again I've no idea of the notes but I guessed at galbanum with some mint and lavender and maybe tonka. It dries down nicely and reminds me then of Histoire de Parfums 1828 which is a great scent IMO.
    I was obviously very flattered by the comparison, but more to the point surprised at the analysis. It would never have occurred to me to describe it as a Fougère - I think that stems from know what's in it. From a technical perspective a Fougère contains oakmoss, coumarin, lavender and (usually) geranium: not one of these is in Artemis, which does not take away from the fact that a Fougère is exactly what it smells like, as it settles.

    In terms of the notes he found, there isn't any galbanum in there - I think that note is part of the absinthe complex itself, the mint is an unusual bergamot mint and no lavender or tonka.

    For completeness this is the marketing blurb I'd written for Artemis before I got that review:

    Built around the unusual essential oil of Artemisia absinthium, with it’s unique herbal, dry scent and blue-green colour it gives a fresh opening to this distinctive cologne. Green mandarin provides sharpness with blackcurrant and freesia following on.
    The long-lasting dry-down reveals subtle dry overtones and the softness of sandalwood, white musk and a hint of pink pepper.
    Artemis is a slightly heady, fresh, herbal, rather muscular interpretation of the key ingredient of Absinthe – presented here without the familiar aniseed note so that it can shine clearly through.
    Named for Greek Goddess of the Hunt this is as sharp as one of her arrows yet as soft as the dry forest floor, fresh as a breeze rustling summer leaves.
    So the question is - do I re-write that to describe it as a Fougère or not?
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  2. #2

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Sounds very interesting. I have grown Artemisia absinthium, and liked its smell, fresh green bitter but with a certain background sweetness, different from the anise that is typically used in the pastis type of drinks.

    If it smells like a fougere, why not mention it in the description? while at the same time making sure that you explain the fact that this is an effect arrived at by novel means.

    cacio

  3. #3

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Send some to me and I'll tell you if it's a fougere or not.

    I quite like the smell of most artemesia species; kind of a cool, wintery smell. Tarragon is underexposed.

    I'm not sure if it's a fougere note in and off itself, but the note seemed fairly popular in '80s mens fougeres. Ayala Moriel has a scent called indigo that's a powdery floral plus tarragon, and the effect is a little fougere-esque. As is the tarragon in Penhaglion's LP. No. 9, despite it being more of a powdery oriental on the whole.

  4. #4

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    the term fougere almost stopped being useful. there are just so many with very little in common. I would think only lavender was essential to that basic fougere effect, but apparently, that isn't the case.

    according to a link that popped up in google artemisia oil doesn't have too much in common with lavender either. a bit of linalool and linalyl acetate. can that be enough ? I don't know. let's just call it citrus+herbal green woody+warmth

  5. #5

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Where is the need to call it a Fougere anyway? Absinthe is surely more interesting? You could invent your own category.

  6. #6

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    From the sound of it (sounds great) for blurb purposes I would suggest slipping in something along the lines of 'that may appeal to fans of the fougere style, albeit with a modern twist' or something like that. If I notice fougere or chypre mentioned in a blurb I usually take a second look, even though we all know these days the terms are used loosely. Fou d'Absinthe is called a fougere and I don't think it covers all three generally acknowledged (Lavender, Oakmoss, Coumarin) bases does it?
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 5th December 2011 at 06:32 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Until I got the review back I hadn't considered calling it anything but absinthe based but then realised that the connection with the fougere style would enable people who have not smelt it to have an idea of whether they will want to: the internet gives you many things but a sniff of perfume is sadly not one of them.

    I think I like
    . . . that may appeal to fans of the fougere style
    best: I shall add that to the blurb when I launch it on my website.

    Again, many thanks for your thoughts and help.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  8. #8

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    For those who may be interested I’ve put Artemis up on my website today, though technically it isn’t to be launched until 1st of January. It’s on an introductory offer, but if you order before the official launch and mention this thread title I’ll knock an extra 10% off, just because. [is that allowed? - if not no doubt someone will tell me soon enough - meanwhile the offer stands]
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    I was looking at your site, Chris and I hope to place a small order of samples soon
    Maybe an idea: could customers add their own reviews? Or maybe you can add the reviews themselfs to the description, so people that read it know it comes from someone else than the perfumer that tried it.
    Just an idea

  10. #10

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Thanks for that Lavender, I shall look forward to your order. As to the comments, that’s something I’ve been thinking about - I do all my own web development and my skills are not quite up to facilitating comments directly on the site without going off and doing some more learning so a couple of alternatives occurred to me:
    1) I could put a link to comments here on Basenotes (that would require putting all my products into the directory which I’ve yet to request but might be a good idea anyway.
    2) I could put put posts up for each product on my blog and then link to the reviews there. As I’ve only just started the blog that might be a good way to populate it with something interesting too.

    As always I’m interested in views.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  11. #11

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    I saw that Chris, I love supporting independent perfumers, they are so creative and multi-task a lot! I like your blog too, the design is also a bit more clearer to my eyes than the website (I must say I like very 'clean' websites or very 'handmade artistic ones'). Did you ever thought of trying a different design? Just to get some feedback maybe? Or other kinds of pictures, they now look a bit too dark, or some photoshop? (no idea on how it works, just throwing it out there)
    I hope I don't sound harsh, just giving an honest opinion, for me it's all about the juice and I would hate to see good talent go to waste cos of 'looks'.
    Do you have any lavender scents?

  12. #12

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Thanks for the support!

    I’m afraid re-designing the site isn’t something I can contemplate at the moment - it just takes up too much time - so I’m stuck with it as it is for the time being at least. Maintaining it takes me away from making perfume more than I’d like tbh.

    The pictures are another matter - my photography skills are not too bad when it comes to outdoors work, but I’m pretty hopeless at anything requiring supplementary lighting. I’m practicing all the time and getting a little better but I do agree that they are not the best. At some point I think I shall have to engage a professional to do some product pictures for me, but I can’t afford that just yet.

    I’m happy to have your views and critical ones allow me to improve, where ‘that’s nice’ gives me nothing to work on so no problem there at all.

    Lavender: several of my fragrances feature lavender - Equisetum as a traditional Fougère contains quite a lot - but I suspect that might not be what you are looking for!

    My all-natural perfume Relaxed repose contains quite a lot of alpine lavender and the room fragrance Lavender Garden has several different lavenders together with thyme in it. Then of course there is The Simple Essence of Lavender, which contains nothing else: but that isn’t really a perfume so much as a dilution.

    I do have a fragrance where lavender is the dominant note - called Lasting Lavender - where what I was trying to do was to extend it without loosing the essential character of the lavender. This uses quite a bit of lavender absolute as well as some very nice lavender oil and a lot of fixatives. I made it as a gift for my mum one Christmas and have never put it on the website: but if you’re interested I’ll happily sell you some.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 28th December 2011 at 06:51 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  13. #13

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    I'll email you soon, Chris, so wonderful to hear about your lavender scents YAY
    As for honest and elaborate feedback: you betcha

  14. #14

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Just for you Lavender, I’ve put my Lasting Lavender fragrance up on the website - it isn’t linked-up yet so the only way to find it is from here . . .
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  15. #15

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Fougere heavily relies on the harmony between coumarin, lavender, oakmoss and linalol. It's that accord that creates the archetypical foguere scents. This is when knowing a little something about the chemistry of the essential oils you're using can be helpful. And artemisia (absinthe) is one that has coumarin in its makeup. For example - lavender has high content of linalol, and so does ho wood, rosewood and even clary sage.
    I wouldn't go as far as recommending (or not) that you change your ad copy or categorizing of your scent, especially not without smelling it first; just a list of notes and a description of one perfume aficionado is not enough. You can create many different fragrance family type notes from the same perfume materials.
    But I do think that it's important to have an idea of what fragrance family your scent is going to be before marketing it. Because most likely that as hard as you may try to be original - it will fall under one of the major fragrance families. Or at best - it will end up being a "twist" on an existing one, or a cross between two or three families. i.e.: it might be a very floral fougere (just throwing a possibility because of the freesia note). So it would be a good idea to not only know that your main material is aretmisia, but also where you want to take it - do you want to make it into a fougere? chypre? green floral?
    Hope this helps!
    Ayala Moriel, Perfumer
    Ayala Moriel Parfums http://www.ayalamoriel.com/
    Visit my SmellyBlog: http://www.smellyblog.com/

  16. #16

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayala View Post
    This is when knowing a little something about the chemistry of the essential oils you're using can be helpful. And artemisia (absinthe) is one that has coumarin in its makeup. For example - lavender has high content of linalol, and so does ho wood, rosewood and even clary sage.
    If you’ve been reading around this forum you’ll hopefully have spotted that I do indeed know a little something . . .

    However I’m surprised at the assertion that Artemisia absinthium contains coumarin - it is one of those oils that varies quite a lot depending on where it’s grown, but it is also one that has come in for quite a bit of study and as a result there are a good few analyses published (here is a typical example listing 72 components adding up to ~97.6% of the oil but unless I’ve missed it, no coumarin). I have never seen one listing coumarin (aka benzo-alpha-pyrone; 3-(2-hydroxyphenyl)-delta-lactone and several other variants of the chemical name) as a component, nor do I detect it myself in the oil I’ve used. I’m checking with my supplier just in case I’ve missed something, but I don’t believe it’s there.

    As to linalool I’m obviously aware of it’s presence in all those oils (and indeed in absinthe in small amounts) but I’m not sure what relevance that has here, as I didn’t use them. There is a little in Yarrow, which I did use and Bergamot Mint, which I mentioned and is about 10% linalool.

    My question was about the approach to marketing the fragrance, the formula for which as been finalised: I’ve taken it exactly where I wanted it to go over a period over about 8 months work - some of which I’ve talked about here on Basenotes.

    I think one of us has misunderstood the point the other was making somewhat - if it’s me then I apologise!
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  17. #17
    Dependent
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    3,652

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Interesting discussion!

    Artemisia absinthium essential oils is one of my very favorite smells ever. My holy grail would be a fragrance that featured this wormwood but continuing in a relatively linear way all the way through a green-bitter drydown. I imagine it would need violet leaf, galbanum, patchouli, moss, and other details to achieve this. Does anyone know of such a fragrance in existence? No birch tar "leather" please.

  18. #18

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    I think us "hardcore BNers" get a chuckle when we read that something like Polo Double Black is a fougere (of any kind, such as oriental fougere), since so many "masculine" frags start off with at least a mild lavender/coumarin accord. The key question, at least for me, is how strong that accord is and how long it lasts.

  19. #19

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayala View Post
    Fougere heavily relies on the harmony between coumarin, lavender, oakmoss and linalol.
    I'm with Ayala on this one. A fougere is a style and structure of smell as are other 'styles'. One persons appraisal of a frag does not indicate a 'style'. I think it needs more than one opinion to section it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    From what I can find easily, some taxa contain about 0.25% coumarin.

    Have a look here.:-

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np50022a017

  21. #21

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    From what I can find easily, some taxa contain about 0.25% coumarin.

    Have a look here.:-

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np50022a017
    Yes I’ve seen that - but it isn’t Artemisia absinthium that is being examined: other artemisia have small amounts of coumarin, but I can’t find evidence absinthe does.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  22. #22

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I'm with Ayala on this one. A fougere is a style and structure of smell as are other 'styles'. One persons appraisal of a frag does not indicate a 'style'. I think it needs more than one opinion to section it.
    That was the whole point of the thread: to garner additional opinions
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  23. #23

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    However I’m surprised at the assertion that Artemisia absinthium contains coumarin
    I was reading this bit, that's why I looked for you.

  24. #24

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyBars View Post
    Interesting discussion!

    Artemisia absinthium essential oils is one of my very favorite smells ever. My holy grail would be a fragrance that featured this wormwood but continuing in a relatively linear way all the way through a green-bitter drydown. I imagine it would need violet leaf, galbanum, patchouli, moss, and other details to achieve this. Does anyone know of such a fragrance in existence? No birch tar "leather" please.
    This was, broadly, what I set out to achieve - I loved the smell and wanted to make a fragrance that would exalt it: I was not aiming for something totally linear, partly because I don’t think that is possible with a natural material, but mostly because I prefer some development in my fragrances but I was seeking to add to the absinthe character rather than dilute it with other things, if that makes sense. I certainly didn’t use any birch tar or synthetic leather accords in this one (not that I dislike those, it just wasn’t the point for this fragrance). If that has been done before I’m not aware of it, but given on average 3 new fragrances were released every day last year alone, I would not be surprised to find that it has.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  25. #25

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    I think us "hardcore BNers" get a chuckle when we read that something like Polo Double Black is a fougere (of any kind, such as oriental fougere), since so many "masculine" frags start off with at least a mild lavender/coumarin accord. The key question, at least for me, is how strong that accord is and how long it lasts.
    Fair point and I guess that was also why I was asking: I don’t like to make claims that will be perceived has false, however innocently - but degrees of something are hard to judge. Artemis is certainly not as Fougère as my traditional, old fashioned Fougère, Equisetum which has maximum permitted oakmoss plus synthetic reinforcements etc. But I’d say it was more like a Fougère than say Grey Flannel, which I’ve often heard described as a ‘fresh, green Fougère’.

    In the end it comes down to a judgement, and as I said earlier in the thread, after taking advice here I decided to go with ‘will appeal to fans of the Fougère style’ rather than claiming it as a true Fougère, which it isn’t (IMO).
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  26. #26

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    These fragrance families are so poorly defined that flexibility is guaranteed so I wouldn't stress about it. Since ferns have no scent the whole thing is quite amusing, same with amber.

    The Toa Te Ching comes to the rescue as usual:

    'the way is so plain as to be flavourless.
    when you look at it, it is invisible;
    when you listen to it, it is inaudible;
    when you use it, it cannot be exhausted.

  27. #27

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe C View Post
    These fragrance families are so poorly defined that flexibility is guaranteed so I wouldn't stress about it. Since ferns have no scent the whole thing is quite amusing, same with amber.

    The Toa Te Ching comes to the rescue as usual:

    'the way is so plain as to be flavourless.
    when you look at it, it is invisible;
    when you listen to it, it is inaudible;
    when you use it, it cannot be exhausted.
    Thanks for that - the Tao Te Ching is indeed incontrovertible and you are right: Chandler Burr’s Ghost Flowers article also comes to mind.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  28. #28
    Dependent
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    3,652

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Love the Tao.

    However, I have read that one can melt down amber and obtain an essential oil or absolute from it; after all, it is a form of tree resin. Expensive stuff for sure!

  29. #29

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    You are correct - a true fossilised amber oil can be made - it’s technically a pyrolite - and it is made not from jewellery quality amber but from either the poorer quality material that does not make the grade for gem use or, more often, from the bits leftover from cutting gem quality amber to convert it into (usually) cabochon ‘stones’. Jewellery was one of a number of things I studied in my earlier years and I have some close friends in the trade. I don’t have any of the true fossil amber oil, but I gather it has a complex, dark scent reminiscent of birch tar and incense.

    However the stuff you encounter in perfumery is very rarely that - more often it is either synthetic ambergris or an amber coloured oil mixed from a variety of different oils according to a house style. Or sometimes it’s just labdanum.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  30. #30
    Dependent
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    3,652

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    However the stuff you encounter in perfumery is very rarely that - more often it is either synthetic ambergris or an amber coloured oil mixed from a variety of different oils according to a house style. Or sometimes it’s just labdanum.
    Thanks for corroborating! Sarah Horowitz says classic amber is benzoin plus labdanum. I think the truth is more vague as you have stated.

  31. #31

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Yes I’ve seen that - but it isn’t Artemisia absinthium that is being examined: other artemisia have small amounts of coumarin, but I can’t find evidence absinthe does.
    I'm actually not trying to be difficult in the slightest. I'm just learning, and slightly confused in trying to understand Artimesia and absinthe for my own perfumers curiosity. There are literally hundreds of Artemesia genus types and it is interesting, that's all. Even tarragon seems to be a relative as far as I can find.

    I thought that the Absinthe ingredient was made from the plant of wormwood, otherwise known as Artimesia, commonly Artimesia absinthium, Grande wormwood or absinthe wormwood.

    Artimesia herba-alba (white wormwood) has various compositions.
    Artimesia vulgaris (common wormwood or mugwort) has coumarin derivatives
    Artimesia Pontica (Roman wormwood) not bitter but good colour

    I'm just trying to understand the differences.

  32. #32

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    OK, well first things first the only way to be sure which plant you are talking about is to use the Latin name. Common names are completely unreliable because the same name can apply to multiple plants depending on who’s using it, what part of the world they are in or what the context is. Common Wormwood is a case-in-point: it can mean any of several Artemisia species, but most usually it means Artemisia absinthium, which is the plant used in the making of the drink Absinthe and is also the plant whose essential oil I’m using. That still does not narrow it down quite far enough because with many plants, including this one, there can be several cultivars or sub-species or both. In this case there are several forms in cultivation in gardens - I grew

    Tarragon most often used in cooking, sometimes called French Tarragon and distinct from Artemesia dracunculus inodora often called Russian Tarragon. There is another plant called Tarragon too: Tagetes lucida - completely different - sometimes called Mexican Tarragon. Just to confuse matters further the oil extracted from Artemisia dracunculus sativa is usually referred to as Estragon in perfumery, but it’s the same plant.

    Now as if that wasn’t all difficult enough, botanists also argue about nomenclature all the time and sometimes authorities disagree and sometimes the consensus changes and plants are re-named or even completely re-classified. Unhelpful when you are using older reference books particularly and the net result is that you end up having to know both names. Slightly off topic, but a good example of that is Vetiveria zizanioides, which has now been re-classified as Chrysopogon zizanioides but is still the vetiver we all know and love. There is some debate about whether the two sub-species of tarragon I mentioned are true sub-species, distinct species or just regional variants.

    Which brings me to the final consideration - country (and sometimes region) of origin: many plants exhibit different characteristics with different growing conditions and there may also be large genetic variations between widely separated populations and this is certainly the case with Artemisia absinthium - so to know what I’m using you also need to know that my oil is French (which btw means it is a lovely blue-green colour).

    Finally you mentioned that there were a lot of Artemisias and there certainly are, with widely differing characters and chemistry - the wiki article I’ve linked to lists quite a few and gives some idea of the range and variability.

    Detailed chemistry isn’t always easy to come by, but in the case of Artemisia absinthium it is, because there has been a long history of debate about its medical uses as well as whether or not the drink is hallucinogenic (it was thought to be in the 19th Century when they thought the thujone it contains behaved like THC - the active ingredient in cannabis - now however it is known that it does not). All this means that loads of people wanted to do research into it, including comparative analyses of plants grown in different places etc.

    Bet you’re sorry you asked now . . . I did do quite a lot of homework before I embarked on producing Artemis.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 26th January 2012 at 12:47 PM.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  33. #33

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Not quite sure what happened there but a bit seems to be missing in the middle, it’s still there when I go to edit the post so I’m not sure how to fix it.

    Anyway here is the bit that is missing:


    In this case there are several forms in cultivation in gardens - I grew 'Lambrook Silver' in my garden for many years.


    The convention for botanical identification btw is like this: Artemisia absinthium ‘Lambrook Silver’ - the Genus and species names both in italics, always in that order the first with a capital, the second without followed by any variety name in plain type, all words having capitals - the quotation marks are optional. I had this stuff drummed into me while studying botany . . .

    So that gives you complete identification for cultivated plants, for sub-species there may be a second italicised name to identify them, as for example Artemisia dracunculus sativa - the Tarragon
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  34. #34

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    If you’ve been reading around this forum you’ll hopefully have spotted that I do indeed know a little something . . .
    I was not implying you don't know that stuff, I posted it for the benefits of other members and readers.
    And my point re the linalol content is that what gives a Fougere it's special character is mainly this accord of oakmoss, coumarin, lavender and linalol. This can assist you in your marketing decision and whether your Artemis fragrance is a fougere or not.
    Also, since Artemis is a name of a Goddess, and fougere is typicallly a masculine scent - this can affect your decision as well. Do you want to market it to men or women? Maybe if indeed it smells like a fougere, but you still want to market it women - the edge could be that it's a feminine fougere. And so on.
    Ayala Moriel, Perfumer
    Ayala Moriel Parfums http://www.ayalamoriel.com/
    Visit my SmellyBlog: http://www.smellyblog.com/

  35. #35

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I was reading this bit, that's why I looked for you.
    Just to close the loop on this one, I’ve just had the analysis back and there is definitely no coumarin in French Artemisia absinthium oil, there is some Linalool (about 4%) and some Limonene (about 2.5%). Which is good because it means my IFRA compliance calculations were correct.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  36. #36

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Just to close the loop on this one, I’ve just had the analysis back and there is definitely no coumarin in French Artemisia absinthium oil, there is some Linalool (about 4%) and some Limonene (about 2.5%). Which is good because it means my IFRA compliance calculations were correct.
    Jolly good. It also clears up the original loop too as well. A fougere probably isn't a fougere without it.

  37. #37

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Jolly good. It also clears up the original loop too as well. A fougere probably isn't a fougere without it.
    Well kind of . . . I started by saying that
    From a technical perspective a Fougère contains oakmoss, coumarin, lavender and (usually) geranium: not one of these is in Artemis, which does not take away from the fact that a Fougère is exactly what it smells like, as it settles.
    and that’s still just as true.

    However I do think I’m happy with the ‘may appeal to fans of the Fougère style’ solution we came up with earlier which gives an indication of what to expect without making a confusing or false claim.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

Similar Threads

  1. looking for a new fougere
    By Dixon Cider in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 5th July 2010, 03:01 AM
  2. Is there anything like fougere for women
    By Alicka61 in forum Female Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 14th September 2009, 06:08 AM
  3. What is a fougere?
    By Dante in forum Just Starting Out
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 30th April 2006, 02:09 AM
  4. Chypre vs. Fougere
    By in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 1st January 1970, 01:00 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000