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  1. #31

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Yes I’ve seen that - but it isn’t Artemisia absinthium that is being examined: other artemisia have small amounts of coumarin, but I can’t find evidence absinthe does.
    I'm actually not trying to be difficult in the slightest. I'm just learning, and slightly confused in trying to understand Artimesia and absinthe for my own perfumers curiosity. There are literally hundreds of Artemesia genus types and it is interesting, that's all. Even tarragon seems to be a relative as far as I can find.

    I thought that the Absinthe ingredient was made from the plant of wormwood, otherwise known as Artimesia, commonly Artimesia absinthium, Grande wormwood or absinthe wormwood.

    Artimesia herba-alba (white wormwood) has various compositions.
    Artimesia vulgaris (common wormwood or mugwort) has coumarin derivatives
    Artimesia Pontica (Roman wormwood) not bitter but good colour

    I'm just trying to understand the differences.
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

  2. #32

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    OK, well first things first the only way to be sure which plant you are talking about is to use the Latin name. Common names are completely unreliable because the same name can apply to multiple plants depending on who’s using it, what part of the world they are in or what the context is. Common Wormwood is a case-in-point: it can mean any of several Artemisia species, but most usually it means Artemisia absinthium, which is the plant used in the making of the drink Absinthe and is also the plant whose essential oil I’m using. That still does not narrow it down quite far enough because with many plants, including this one, there can be several cultivars or sub-species or both. In this case there are several forms in cultivation in gardens - I grew

    Tarragon most often used in cooking, sometimes called French Tarragon and distinct from Artemesia dracunculus inodora often called Russian Tarragon. There is another plant called Tarragon too: Tagetes lucida - completely different - sometimes called Mexican Tarragon. Just to confuse matters further the oil extracted from Artemisia dracunculus sativa is usually referred to as Estragon in perfumery, but it’s the same plant.

    Now as if that wasn’t all difficult enough, botanists also argue about nomenclature all the time and sometimes authorities disagree and sometimes the consensus changes and plants are re-named or even completely re-classified. Unhelpful when you are using older reference books particularly and the net result is that you end up having to know both names. Slightly off topic, but a good example of that is Vetiveria zizanioides, which has now been re-classified as Chrysopogon zizanioides but is still the vetiver we all know and love. There is some debate about whether the two sub-species of tarragon I mentioned are true sub-species, distinct species or just regional variants.

    Which brings me to the final consideration - country (and sometimes region) of origin: many plants exhibit different characteristics with different growing conditions and there may also be large genetic variations between widely separated populations and this is certainly the case with Artemisia absinthium - so to know what I’m using you also need to know that my oil is French (which btw means it is a lovely blue-green colour).

    Finally you mentioned that there were a lot of Artemisias and there certainly are, with widely differing characters and chemistry - the wiki article I’ve linked to lists quite a few and gives some idea of the range and variability.

    Detailed chemistry isn’t always easy to come by, but in the case of Artemisia absinthium it is, because there has been a long history of debate about its medical uses as well as whether or not the drink is hallucinogenic (it was thought to be in the 19th Century when they thought the thujone it contains behaved like THC - the active ingredient in cannabis - now however it is known that it does not). All this means that loads of people wanted to do research into it, including comparative analyses of plants grown in different places etc.

    Bet you’re sorry you asked now . . . I did do quite a lot of homework before I embarked on producing Artemis.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 26th January 2012 at 11:47 AM.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  3. #33

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Not quite sure what happened there but a bit seems to be missing in the middle, it’s still there when I go to edit the post so I’m not sure how to fix it.

    Anyway here is the bit that is missing:


    In this case there are several forms in cultivation in gardens - I grew 'Lambrook Silver' in my garden for many years.


    The convention for botanical identification btw is like this: Artemisia absinthium ‘Lambrook Silver’ - the Genus and species names both in italics, always in that order the first with a capital, the second without followed by any variety name in plain type, all words having capitals - the quotation marks are optional. I had this stuff drummed into me while studying botany . . .

    So that gives you complete identification for cultivated plants, for sub-species there may be a second italicised name to identify them, as for example Artemisia dracunculus sativa - the Tarragon
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #34

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    If you’ve been reading around this forum you’ll hopefully have spotted that I do indeed know a little something . . .
    I was not implying you don't know that stuff, I posted it for the benefits of other members and readers.
    And my point re the linalol content is that what gives a Fougere it's special character is mainly this accord of oakmoss, coumarin, lavender and linalol. This can assist you in your marketing decision and whether your Artemis fragrance is a fougere or not.
    Also, since Artemis is a name of a Goddess, and fougere is typicallly a masculine scent - this can affect your decision as well. Do you want to market it to men or women? Maybe if indeed it smells like a fougere, but you still want to market it women - the edge could be that it's a feminine fougere. And so on.
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  5. #35

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I was reading this bit, that's why I looked for you.
    Just to close the loop on this one, I’ve just had the analysis back and there is definitely no coumarin in French Artemisia absinthium oil, there is some Linalool (about 4%) and some Limonene (about 2.5%). Which is good because it means my IFRA compliance calculations were correct.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #36

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Just to close the loop on this one, I’ve just had the analysis back and there is definitely no coumarin in French Artemisia absinthium oil, there is some Linalool (about 4%) and some Limonene (about 2.5%). Which is good because it means my IFRA compliance calculations were correct.
    Jolly good. It also clears up the original loop too as well. A fougere probably isn't a fougere without it.
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

  7. #37

    Default Re: When is a Fougère not a Fougère?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Jolly good. It also clears up the original loop too as well. A fougere probably isn't a fougere without it.
    Well kind of . . . I started by saying that
    From a technical perspective a Fougère contains oakmoss, coumarin, lavender and (usually) geranium: not one of these is in Artemis, which does not take away from the fact that a Fougère is exactly what it smells like, as it settles.
    and that’s still just as true.

    However I do think I’m happy with the ‘may appeal to fans of the Fougère style’ solution we came up with earlier which gives an indication of what to expect without making a confusing or false claim.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

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