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  1. #1

    Default Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I'm just curious - do perfumers intentionally make understated and short-lived fragrances (not referring to EDC's and citrus-heavy refresher scents)? Is it a part of the business model to make sure that you buy a new bottle every few months or so?

    How do the creators and heads of Quest/Givaudan/IFF decide whether or not a fragrance has longevity? Do they test these scents on multiple skin types and persons to get a general assessment?

    I'm just trying to understand how these short-lived scents end up on the shelves.
    Summer Rotation:

    Versace Pour Homme by Versace
    Cool Water Game by Davidoff
    Tom Ford Grey Vetiver
    H.M. by Hanae Mori
    Vettiveru by Commes Des GarÁons
    Love & Luck by Ed Hardy
    Riverside Drive by Bond No. 9

    If smelling good was a crime, I'd be serving a lifetime sentence....

    - OE (olfactoryexperience)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I think most of the younger audience tends to spray a lot and are used to body sprays like Axe and Bath and Body Work's mists. So I think fragrance companies are following that trend & creating fragrances that can be sprayed heavily and used on clothes as well. Plus, it means more money for them too, so you know they don't have a problem with that

  3. #3

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    In one of Chandler Burr's books Hermes were bugging Jean Claude Ellena about the longevity of one of his Jardin creations. I guess the perfumers must come under a hell of a lot of pressure from clients... I would imagine to get the juice to last longer rather than shorter.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Speaking as a modern perfumer I can tell you that we are obsessed with longevity - how long a fragrance ingredient lasts is a constant concern - both because sometimes you want what I refer to as a RO-RO fragrance (after the description of ferries where the whole point is they are fast on and fast off) or something that will last all day and night.

    There is a trend in the younger market towards lighter, cheaper shorter-lived fragrances because that is what most people seem to want.

    Personally I prefer something longer lived and which develops over time - but then I’m not catering to the mass-market.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Strangely, of all the many faults I find in the modern designer fragrances, brevity isn't one of them. Most desgner fragrances I've tried lately last a decent time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Would be good to see some consistency with the modern fragrances. Angel Men although very loud lasts ages. Would be nice to see a fragrance that is classic but lasts long. For me if it lasts beyond 7 hours then im impressed.

  7. #7
    hednic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by frostycitrusguy View Post
    Would be good to see some consistency with the modern fragrances.
    That would certainly be welcome.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Well Tom Ford is going by his private collection of fragrances. I also think it is a delicate balancing act with the ingredients and budget that they are allowed to work with and the type of fragrance they are aiming for.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    As far as I can see, buyers today are fixated on longevity. There are these cheap perfume stores all over istanbul, and one shop had a sign saying "we have fragrance that goes for three days". Just that.

    Why would anyone need that much longevity? Is it that big a problem to reapply? While it boggles my mind, obviously there is demand for it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Three Days is too long but a good 7 -8 hours is about right.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Speaking as a modern perfumer I can tell you that we are obsessed with longevity - how long a fragrance ingredient lasts is a constant concern - both because sometimes you want what I refer to as a RO-RO fragrance (after the description of ferries where the whole point is they are fast on and fast off) or something that will last all day and night.

    There is a trend in the younger market towards lighter, cheaper shorter-lived fragrances because that is what most people seem to want.

    Personally I prefer something longer lived and which develops over time - but then Iím not catering to the mass-market.
    Oh, how I wish your preference was the consensus ... but sadly, The One for Men by Dolce & Gabbana is a glaring example otherwise and, apparently, a nascent trend ... re-purchase, with the resultant increase in sales, seems to trump longevity considerations, and may, in fact, frame those considerations ...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarıpatates View Post
    As far as I can see, buyers today are fixated on longevity. There are these cheap perfume stores all over istanbul, and one shop had a sign saying "we have fragrance that goes for three days". Just that.

    Why would anyone need that much longevity?
    Well, perhaps if one were trekking and wanted to pack light. And didn't plan to forge any streams.
    [I]"Embrace those things which give you pleasure, after all, there is so much mediocrity to endure elsewhere."[/I] -- [URL="http://community.basenotes.net/showthread.php?p=1496120#post1496120"]Inselaffe[/URL]

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    the average person doesnt expect longevity and only judges a scent based on top notes. That is probably why the industries dont care for longevity. I personally want at least 8 hours for something im paying for.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    So I guess until consumer pressure urges designers to create more substantial fragrances, we'll just have to continue to endure these lightweights. Thanks for the feedback.
    Summer Rotation:

    Versace Pour Homme by Versace
    Cool Water Game by Davidoff
    Tom Ford Grey Vetiver
    H.M. by Hanae Mori
    Vettiveru by Commes Des GarÁons
    Love & Luck by Ed Hardy
    Riverside Drive by Bond No. 9

    If smelling good was a crime, I'd be serving a lifetime sentence....

    - OE (olfactoryexperience)

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I had the sense that even some high-end frags seem to mindfully have less projection or longevity as a backlash against some of the monster frags of the past.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    With my dry, pale skin longevity is always a concern. I want something that lasts at least 4-5 hours, and it's hard to find these days. I don't want to keep reapplying if I'm at work, although at home I don't mind, and even enjoy the change of scent in the afternoon.
    In her book Les Parfums, which I'm reading now, Elisabeth de Feydeau mentions that the USA customer always insists on great longevity, and IMO the Estee Lauder scents exemplify this taste. They all last for ages, but unfortunately I only really like Youth Dew.
    And then there are the modern scents which you spray on heedlessly in the department store to sample, and which turn out to be hideous - you wish they would fade away!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugandaraja View Post
    Strangely, of all the many faults I find in the modern designer fragrances, brevity isn't one of them. Most desgner fragrances I've tried lately last a decent time.
    Maybe they give this impression because they last, but on a murmur voice on the skin. Also, i think that the use of commonplace notes to finish the compositions fatigues the nose with constant exposition, so you ended not registrating anymore the evolution on skin after some hours.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Is almost a condraction this obsession, because the modern average olfact is not used anymore with strong scents, but they want scents that last longer. And they also want scents for a cheap price. With a restricted set of notes and the constant repetition of the same notes doing playing the same roles on the bases it seems difficult, at lest now, to achieve the longevity of the past. Perfumes and movies seems to suffer from the same problem today: they don`t know how to end properly anymore

  19. #19

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    That's an interesting comment. There may be some merit to your post regarding the contradiction between not wanting things too strong but still desiring longevity. Even your assertion on the ubiquity of notes used to construct base notes resulting in an accord to which our noses have become numb is an interesting one. Not sure how true that is.

    I don't think its impossible to find long lasting fragrances in current releases but they are certainly in the minority. It shouldn't be such a surprise when something lasts 8-10hrs regularly, but it is nowadays.
    Summer Rotation:

    Versace Pour Homme by Versace
    Cool Water Game by Davidoff
    Tom Ford Grey Vetiver
    H.M. by Hanae Mori
    Vettiveru by Commes Des GarÁons
    Love & Luck by Ed Hardy
    Riverside Drive by Bond No. 9

    If smelling good was a crime, I'd be serving a lifetime sentence....

    - OE (olfactoryexperience)

  20. #20

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Olfactory, i guess that it`s not a rule, but a thing that happens lately. Specialy because one fragrance end copying and doing some tweaks of others that are already a success, just changing the top notes, that are the ones taken in account in general for purchasing a fragrance. I guess that it`s not impossible in fact, but it`s not what predominates, maybe because of the fashion for light fragrances, the restrictions affecting important base elements that ensured a good longevity and the movement towards the investment in celebrities, publicity and bottles instead of the fragrance itself, which diminutes the budget and limits the perfumer when composing a fragrance. And, of course, i don`t doubt that maybe some companies do their fragrances not longlasting to make you wear them more. In my ipinion is a combination of all those aspects, but which one is the major one I don`t know....

  21. #21

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Now I find this thread interesting.
    In Turkey, everyone who wears a fragrance is obsessed about longevity, SA's always exaggerate how long a fragrance endures above all else, and on BN, most people ask about longevity. Naturally I assumed this to be the norm. So do you guys mean that the majority of buyers in your area ask for less than 8 hour longevity?

    I'm confused.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    of course they are. longevity marks the distance of one of the dimensions that they work in (time). the same goes for sillage (space). it is very important. and while longer does not equal better, it is generally striven for to make something last for a decent time, in a decent way. sillage can be a different matter, from some angles less can be better. it depends on the personality of the perfume, as well as it's intended wearer.

    and by the way, perfumers are only human, and they are overseen (or dictated) by others who generally understand much less of the craft, so don't count out failure.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarıpatates View Post
    Now I find this thread interesting.
    In Turkey, everyone who wears a fragrance is obsessed about longevity, SA's always exaggerate how long a fragrance endures above all else, and on BN, most people ask about longevity. Naturally I assumed this to be the norm. So do you guys mean that the majority of buyers in your area ask for less than 8 hour longevity?

    I'm confused.
    They ask, but it's common to see complaint about fragrances that don't last or gets very soft after 4 hours

  24. #24

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Yes, that's what I mean, and it is my general impression of the many buyers I see and talk to.

    However quotes from the thread like these:
    There is a trend in the younger market towards lighter, cheaper shorter-lived fragrances because that is what most people seem to want.
    the average person doesnt expect longevity and only judges a scent based on top notes. That is probably why the industries dont care for longevity. I personally want at least 8 hours for something im paying for.
    seem to have a different impression.

    If the majority of buyers consider longevity to be very important chances are the suppliers are already doing their best to satisfy the demand. It's not like they are losing anything by doing so, despite being capable. Faster consumption is a moot point. Most people apply fragrances on certain times, no matter what the half-life of their weapon of choice is. Also the current market seems to depend more on first time customers than repeat customers.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I'm always concerned with the longevity of a fragrance I'm going to purchase. Unless it it's a eau de cologne, I want good longevity. I'm wearing Amir by Laura Tonatto today; I sprayed it on 7:00 this morning, and 12 hours later I still get a nice whiff of it on my arm. I consider this a plus.
    I just realized this is beginning to read like a Viagra thread.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    I just realized this is beginning to read like a Viagra thread.
    I don't want to think about what sillage should refer to in that case.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I have a lot of respect for the Tom Ford and By Kilian lines for their excellent sillage and longevity for me. Expensive but worth it.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarıpatates View Post
    I don't want to think about what sillage should refer to in that case.
    I was thinking more about the "longevity" angle.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Guyer View Post
    I was thinking more about the "longevity" angle.
    oh, you and your bananas!

  30. #30

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    In all seriousness, might there also be the intention of developing an "unhealthy consumer habit", namely the fragrance industry manufactures intentionally weaker scents, to make customers use them up faster because of more sprays, and thus purchase these scents more frequently?

  31. #31

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    ^ I seriously doubt it.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Well there might . . . but most fine fragrance is made in more than one strength anyway, with the stronger ‘longer lasting’ (yes I know those are not at all the same, but I’m talking marketing speak now) ones costing more.

    However it does seem plausible that that could be a deliberate intent at the bottom end of the market where price/bottle size is the crucial factor in obtaining sales (lower price, larger bottle being more successful on supermarket shelves). The latter is also the reason why some fragrances are routinely packaged in oversized packs.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_Russell View Post
    In all seriousness, might there also be the intention of developing an "unhealthy consumer habit", namely the fragrance industry manufactures intentionally weaker scents, to make customers use them up faster because of more sprays, and thus purchase these scents more frequently?
    i do not think so, never heard of such an idea. it could be very possibly be thought of, but consider the market working. people will notice and might turn to the concurrents instead. you have to realize that the industry is obsessed with consumer opinions. as a result, i deem such a scheme as unlikely.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    I'm not particularly worried about the things that IFRA seems to worry about, but as someone who does not have the greatest nose in the world, I'm learning to hate the kinds of frags that require soaking my arm with multiple sprays if I'm going to smell the thing, let alone get any projection.

    I'm not afraid of frags, the idea that I have to drench myself with whatever is in these things does not sit well with me either.

    Perhaps the intended style these days (see the recent post on the frag that's intended to have no smell) actually is to have no notable projection, and that I'm just missing the point. But even so, I'm a lot happier with the idea that it only takes a dab or two here and there to get an effect, rather than being required to take a bath in things.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Are Modern Perfumers Concerned with Longevity or Sillage? What's the Industry Saying?

    Interesting perspective. I must confess I’d not thought of it in those terms at all, but I guess it has a logic to it.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

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