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  1. #1

    Default How to build an orris accord...

    Hi everyone!!!
    Since Irival ( Orris ROot Replacer) Is expensive and hard to find, is there any suggestion of how to make an "Orris Accord"? Thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Isoraldeine 70 would be a good place to start and is available from both Perfumerís Apprentice and Hekserij.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I ordered it already from PA. Also a friend of mine gave me this, in order to build an "orris" accord:
    -Ionone Alpha -1
    -Dihydro ionone beta -2
    -Irone alpha @10% -2 ( hard to get and expensive, but we can experiment leaving it out)
    -Isoraldeine 95 - 5
    Hope it helps. I am wondering ( Since orris is used as base note) how we can create an "iris-orris" in top and heart notes of any composition.....any idea (I know carrot and celery)?
    Then you can see that I am obsessed with orris..
    Thanks always Chris !!!!!

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I think if you want irris-orris as a middle to top note, what you are really looking for is violet - something I must say I really love - and then you are looking at a combination of the main ionones: alpha, beta, alpha-methyl and perhaps dihydro ionone beta. You might add isoraldeine 95 (more violet and less orris than the 70) and undecavertol too.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Great Chris. Thank you.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Quote Originally Posted by yandynestor View Post
    Great Chris. Thank you.
    Youíre welcome. Another thought if you are trying to create a violet accord: youíll need cucumber aldehyde (trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal) in traces too. Donít use too much or it will go from violet to melon quite suddenly (and then to cucumber if you keep going).
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Great Post Chris!!!!

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I didn't realize about cucumber aldehyde..interesting. What about Orriniff ( I can smell some cucumber there) and Violiff? Any suggestion of woods and musks to impart more coolness to my orris-iris-violet creation? I was thinking in Norlimbanol , but in small traces too, cause it can overpower any composition. Thanks always Chris!!!!!!

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    The best I find to getting the ingredients right is a headspace analysis if you can find one: cucumber aldehyde is counterintuitive I agree, but is also in the scents of the hyacinth and narcissus flowers in tiny amounts and is an essential for a good violet IMO. I like to have some green-ness in it too - violet leaf absolute is the obvious choice, but also leaf alcohol (again part of the scent of the real flower).

    Offiniff and Violiff are both pre-mixed accords by IFF so I canít say exactly whatís in them, but certainly Violiff is intended to be used as-is to create a violet note. I donít use either personally as I have an accord of my own devising that I prefer to use.

    Now as to the woods and musks - I have used a tiny amount of norlimbanol, a whole collection of different musks and some Chinese Cedarwood. If you donít have the Chinese then Virginian works well too and is cheaper.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Chris thank you always! What a expensive hobby! I feel will never finish buying something that is missing.
    Sometimes I tell my self: Do a minimalist-synthetic fragrance and that's it. But I dont want to give up, even if I spend a whole year collecting the right ingredients for my iris-orris perfume , and learning from my mistakes; and now (as you saw in my other post) I want to make a metallic accord. Maybe they will work very well together. I want to have access to Maurice Roucel " Black Book" and steal the secret of Lutens "Iris Silver Mist". I believe that perfume is the reason of my insomnia.
    Can I steal it......?

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Having just answered a question about building an orris accord in a pm, I was going to post the answer in a new thread, but thought it might be more useful to update this old one instead. Since this was last updated a number of materials that were hard to find have become easier to get. For example both Hermitage and De Hekserij now stock alpha-Irone.

    Here is the summary of approach alternatives I came up with to answer the question:

    With Iris and Orris (usually interchangeable terms) there are several approaches to the scent:
    1) products produced from real, aged iris root. These are expensive (very, very expensive) and have to be dosed in fairly small amounts because they often also have solubility problems. They are very beautiful and the scent is mostly based on Irones, but also contains a number of other elements. The result is lovely, very persistent and exalts other florals as well as acting as a floral-fixative.

    2) synthetic irones - of these only alpha-irone is available in small amounts. Still very expensive, though vastly cheaper than the natural material. Alpha-irone is lovely, very persistent and exalts other florals very well but doesn’t have much fixation value.

    3) a synthetic blend can be used to replace the natural. Orris Givco is one such and is available in small amounts - this is cheaper than alpha-irone and smells much more like the real orris root products. It doesn’t have a great deal of fixation and isn’t as exalting as the alpha-irone but it’s pretty good stuff and smells divine.

    4) the cheapest option is to use ionones - normally described as violet rather than iris - this is deceptive because when the molecule responsible for the scent of iris was being sought it was actually alpha ionone that was synthesised and the researchers were for years convinced that they had indeed isolated what we now know is alpha-irone because the olfactory profile is so similar. Ionones can be bought very cheaply and are widely available. A combination with some amber ingredients can give you a very beautiful effect indeed.

    Hopefully that may be useful to someone!
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 20th May 2014 at 09:58 AM. Reason: corrected formatting
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Hmm.. I have some myristic acid lying around to experiment with.. Thought that since Orris butter in mainly this acid, it could act similarly as a fixative, though I haven't checked it yet - just throwing an idea.

  13. #13
    rickbr's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Bumping this thread, i think that this pdf with a further information of orris profile would be useful for someone searching information to understand orris.esse_oils_1995_2000_p41_43.pdf

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I know this is an old thread, but Yandynestor's dilemma is one I understand since I've been working on Iris for probably a year now.
    I have come up with an accord I'm very fond of (Irival, Orivone, Irisone alpha, Alpha Irone, Ethyl Myristate, Carrot Seed, Heliotropin, Hedione, Iris O.A., Orris concrete, Orris butter, Guaicwood, Carrot Seed e.o., and Costausol), but every time I try to fix it, I lose the main accord, which while convincing, is reserved and understated. It may be an inherent contradiction, but I want to make an Iris that radiates and lasts.
    I have put together a mixture of vetiver and frankincense that backs it up beautifully. The vetiver especially hides just behind the iris accord and gives it life.
    Now, I'm experimenting with aldehydes, C-12 Laurie and C-10, but my C-10 is funky and may need to be replaced.
    Any ideas of how to make progress in this direction would be most appreciated.
    In the interest of full transparency, I am developing this perfume for Brooklyn Perfume Company.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    One more thing. The best Alpha Irone I've found comes from Pell Wall.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Making it last, is about using some of the molecules that I make...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  17. #17

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Hi James,
    try methyl ionones with stronger orris note, orris givco, little green notes ( violet leaves , MOC etc.. ), trace PEA or rose abs., cedar notes.. I smell irival and orivone only for ~3hours so i consider them as top to middle notes. Orris givco lasts very long time. For radiaton use more alpha irone, aldehydes - anisic.

  18. #18

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I too love orris and violet and obsessed with all things purple like that. I have an orris accord that I love but of course, still work on and even this thread has inspired me more. But it is definetly middle notes to base notes. To make it more toppy then yes lean towards violet. Creatingperfum has orris top note woods koavone and vanoris which I think are really lovely. Perfumers supply has irone and it can be diluted to 10% so it's worth buying. Perfumersupplyhouse also has isopentyrate now. I am in LOVE with isopentyrate. It's such a solid building block. It's in anything I make lately. Violet, orris, green, fruit, apples, herbal, floral.
    Last edited by RSG; 28th January 2019 at 03:48 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I hate the Givco replacer. I used it as part of my accord in the beginning when I had only a few materials. But now I like what I make better and I won't get the givco again. The replacer is quite woody and just not like the natural thing. The natural is expensive but worth having at least for reference.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    After buying kilos of Veltonal (276 hours) and Boronal (236 hours), these are very interesting materials...

    The molecules that I make, last for weeks...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  21. #21

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Hi Paul,
    what molecules are you talking about ?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    Hi Paul,
    what molecules are you talking about ?
    I don't have them for sale anywhere... mostly, I've made them for my own use.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  23. #23

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    Thank you, Milhaus. I've fooled around with Orris Give and haven't been impressed, but if it lasts so long, perhaps I can use it. Had thought about rose and will now definitely try it. Anisic aldehyde sounds like a good idea.

  24. #24

    Default Re: How to build an orris accord...

    I remember there is 50% ionone beta in the Iris Givco base,besides the Dihydro Ionone beta,cedarwood,vertofix,okoumal,irone alpha.
    I'm also working on modifying an amber based candle to a cheaper version these days,the odor is bergamote,Goumand,Honey,Tonka,amber,iris,patchouli ,vetyver,musk.
    In the original formule,there is ironal which is very diffusive and iris ,with a little "Fatty",but it is too expersive.I try to use Iris givco,Irone Alpha,boisiris,orivione,and a little of Ethyl Decanoate and Irotyl ,but it doesn't works well.
    I will continue to try with Irisone Pure and other ionones.




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