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  1. #31

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Regarding Dianthene, I'm thinking Methyl Diantilis?
    And regarding Reseda, is that even available? This is mignonnette, which is one of the most beautifully perfumed flowers in the known universe.

  2. #32

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphaea View Post
    This may be close, as according to Jean-Paul Guerlain said himself in his book, Mitsouko only has 10 ingredients!
    What a great idea for a challenge exercise. Who can come up with the ten ingredients?
    The following are a given:

    1. oak moss and lots of it
    2. Bergamot and lots of it too!
    3. Ionones
    4. C14 for the peach note
    5. Vetiver/Labdanum/patchouli to form the chypre accord with the oak moss
    6. Musk Ketone
    7. Jasmine
    8. Rose

    What are the two "mystery modifiers"? Chamomile?, Estragon (tarragon)?, Reseda???

  3. #33

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I dont see any cinnamon note mentioned on fragrantica http://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/G...fum-25316.html

  4. #34

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    (Post amended - Thank you)

    1940's Mitsouko re-creation - typed list in next post. - Thanks Trufflehunter

    See here for the Jicky one at post 20 onwards, and if you've got a few thousand spare to spend on purchasing the formulas.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  5. #35

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    ...Please can everyone amend their posting accordingly to remove the actual image and replace it with typed formula notes...
    Not bossy at all!
    I've done my best to transcribe the pesky french handwriting :

    Bergamotte 45
    Acetate Linalyle 15
    Rose de Grasse du Bulgare 6
    Portugal déterpené (10%) 6
    Iralia 7
    Patchouly vieux extra 6
    Ylang Ylang Manilla 3
    Civette 40 Giv. 6
    Estragon (10%) 9
    Sauge Sclarée 1
    Ambrette absolue (10%) 3
    Dianthine 18030 4.5
    Iris absolue (10%) 30
    Mousse Cannili (Camili?)* (10%) 15
    Reseda Acheros** absolue (10%) 30
    Undecalactone (10%) 1
    Jasmin absolue 10
    Cassis absolue (10%) 3
    Musc Ketone 8
    Vetyverol 3
    Camomille Romain (10%) 4
    Vanilline 0.5
    Jasmin B.D. Roure*** 79****

    * No idea what sort of moss this is. Oak Moss is “Mousse de Chêne”
    ** Reseda is Mignonette, but no idea what Acheros is
    *** http://www.perfumeprojects.com/museu...rs/Roure.shtml
    **** must be a jasmin tincture at this quantity
    Last edited by Trufflehunter; 14th November 2014 at 11:00 AM.

  6. #36

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    And tree moss is Mousse d'arbre.

    The only mousse cannili I found, referred to a chocolate mousse for eating.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  7. #37

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    In older formula is often mentioned Oakmoss absolute ( Camilli ). Dominique Camilli of Molinard is perfumer.

  8. #38

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Camilli was (is?) a supplier of Essential oils and Absolutes. Jasmin BD will be a specific Jasmin base. Reseda is, probably, no longer available. Poucher suggests that Reseda smells like Violet Leaf with a touch of Basil.

  9. #39
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I'd bet that Acheros is another supplier.


    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #40

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    What a great idea for a challenge exercise. Who can come up with the ten ingredients?
    The following are a given:

    1. oak moss and lots of it
    2. Bergamot and lots of it too!
    3. Ionones
    4. C14 for the peach note
    5. Vetiver/Labdanum/patchouli to form the chypre accord with the oak moss
    6. Musk Ketone
    7. Jasmine
    8. Rose

    What are the two "mystery modifiers"? Chamomile?, Estragon (tarragon)?, Reseda???

    Perhaps Pepper or Anisic Aldehyde?

  11. #41

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    There must be some Civet there surely. And something herbal; Estragon would fit.

  12. #42

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I just found this in one of my old books

    Essence of Reseda (artificial, almost indistinguishable from the genuine)

    Tonka beans, in pieces - 30 grains
    Storax, liquid - 15 grains
    Orris root - 1 3/4 oz
    Oil of neroli - 10 drops
    Oil of rose - 10 drops
    Oil of bitter almond - 2 drops
    Oil of bergamot - 20 drops
    Ambergris - 15 grains
    Musk - 8 grains
    Nettle herb - 30 grains
    Alcohol 1/2 lb

    Macerate for from one to two weeks, and filter

    So this suggests reseda to be a fairly strong musty herbal floral/citrus thing
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  13. #43

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Wow, great find, mumsy! Nettle herb is an interesting item. I actually have some stinging nettle abs from Hermitage and I've been wondering what to do with it. I have no orris, so I'll subs ionone alpha and heliotropin replacer for the bitter almond. I know the smell of reseda (mignonette) from our family garden when I was a kid and I remember it being an exquisite, light, ethereal thing that totally fascinated me, particularly given that the little plant itself looks like a nasty weed.
    But those quantities! Grains 'n drops 'n ounces. How will I ever figure that out?

  14. #44

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    We had a whole thread on that once. I will look for it later.

    This is on our trusty good scents guide under conversions. How I love that site. (Thank you GSG)

    Drams (avdp) = grains X 27.3437
    Drams (avdp) = grams X 1.7718
    Drams (avdp) = ounces X 0.0625
    Fluid Drams = millileters X 3.6967
    Fluid Drams = minims X 60.0
    Fluid Drams = fluid ounces X 0.125
    Fluid Ounces = fluid drams X 8.0
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  15. #45
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Have a look here for a complete reference on old weight and volume measurements.
    See p.8, upper rt corner for grains to grams
    http://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/upl...al-rev6-12.pdf

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  16. #46

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Thank you PK, that is the one I was looking for.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  17. #47
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Reseda formula from Anonis/Gattefossé 1950
    250 alpha ionone
    50 Orris resinoid
    100 Methyl ionone
    100 Phenyl propyl acetate
    200 Geraniol palmarosa
    75 Phenyl ethyl acetate
    25 Styralyl acetate
    25 Methyl nonyl ketone
    75 Bergamot
    100 Terpineol
    1000
    Could Portugal déterpené (10%) be Petitgrain?

    "The composition of Mitsouko is very concise, which is also true for Nahéma. Each of them holds twelve materials." explained Jean-Paul Guerlain in his autobiographical Les Routes de Mes Parfums." That is from a fascinating article here http://www.monsieur-guerlain.com/2008/06/mitsouko.html

    Could one of the 12 ingredients be an earlier Chypre eg Chypre de Paris, because ...
    "Jacques Guerlain’s formula for Cuir de Russie indeed does list Mitsouko, and also Chypre de Paris, as an ingredient. It wasn’t uncommon for Jacques Guerlain to recycle a formula inside a new formula, something which perfumers call “formule à tiroir”, that is, to work with a formula that you already have in your drawer."

    I do hope Mumsy loses the lottery again this week, as just the two Guerlain formulae are quite enough for now.
    Last edited by nemenator; 22nd November 2014 at 10:10 PM.

  18. #48

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    I do hope Mumsy loses the lottery again this week....
    Oi...... 'twas you then.....
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  19. #49
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I know I am late to the party, but hopefully it will be helpful.
    Poucher's Pefumes vol 2 says the following:

    The sweet or Portugal orange is the Citrus aurantium of Risso, who enumerates nineteen varieties.

    It also has these compounding notes about reseda:

    The peculiar greenish-violet fragrance of mignonette will have been noticed by every perfumer, and since a number of aromatics of this type are available this particular tonality will present no difficulty in the creation of the complex. The ionones are therefore indispensable, together with one of the violet leaf synthetics where the choice lies between methyl heptine carbonate and ethyl decine carbonate with a slight preference for the latter; while a natural product that should not be overlooked is basilic in addition to violet leaf substitute. But these substances by no means solve this rather difficult synthesis; for if a large bunch of flowers is examined olfactically a peculiar fruity shading will be detected that perhaps suggests liberal quantities of bergamot and lemon, together with strawberry. Once this has been confirmed the build-up can be completed with natural reseda and mimosa, together with small quantities of the crystalline aromatics.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Well found Zemlya. So the Portugal déterpené (10%) is 10 fold Orange. Will 5 fold plus a little limonene do? 10 fold seems tricky to come by- I can only find it at CG-herbal and De Monchy.

  21. #51
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #52

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    So the Portugal déterpené (10%) is 10 fold Orange. Will 5 fold plus a little limonene do? .
    No. Portugal déterpené 10% would be a 10% dilution of deterpenated orange. Deterpenated means without (or with fewer) terpenes. Limonene is a terpene. You don't want to add more.

    Poucher has a table showing the approximate strength of deterpenated oils in comparison with the plain essential oils. It shows deterpenated orange as (approximately) 40 times stronger than plain.

  23. #53

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Deterpinated oils used to be used a lot in alcoholic fragrances as the terpenes as a chemical class are not terrible alcohol soluble. Using an ordinary citrus oil, then chilling and filtering achieves the same result.

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