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  1. #1

    Default How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Hello friends,
    I want to make a Chypre perfume to someone who loves Mitsouko. Anny suggestion?? Help!!!!!

  2. #2

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I currently only use naturals so i don't have aldehyde C-14 for the peach but try this

    Oak Moss - 2
    Labdanum - 1
    Benzoin - 1
    Patchouli - 1
    Jasmine - 2
    Rose - 1
    Clove - 1
    Bergamot - 6
    Neroli - 2
    Lemon - 1
    Mandarin - 1

    This is a recipe I am currently working on if you extend let me know what you did, good luck.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by yandynestor View Post
    Hello friends,
    I want to make a Chypre perfume to someone who loves Mitsouko. Anny suggestion?? Help!!!!!
    There is a published version of Mitsouko - not the production formula but very similar - which is available on the Perfumer’s Apprentice site, from which you can even buy a kit with which to make it.

    If there is an element of Mitsouko that your friend particularly appreciates you could emphasise that element in your version, making it uniquely theirs.

    Sweet orange - 10
    Lemon - 20
    Elemi - 2
    Celery seed - 5
    Chamomile, 10% - 5
    Bergamot - 130
    Tarragon 10% - 35
    Coriander - 10
    Lavender - 10
    benzyl acetate - 50
    linalyl acetate - 20
    geranium oil - 10
    Ylang Ylang - 10
    Citral - 5
    Jasmine absolute - 10
    phenyl propyl alcohol - 5
    Oak Moss - 70
    Clove 30
    Dimethyl Anthranilate - 2
    Anisyl Acetate - 3
    Benzoin 50% - 20
    Castoreum tincture 10% - 5
    Civet tincture 10% - 10
    Labdanum resin - 10
    Peru Balsam resin - 5
    Rose absolute - 20
    Methyl Ionone - 40
    Costus 10% - 20
    Ethyl Cinnamate - 10
    patchouli - 10
    vetiveryl - 20
    coumarin - 50
    hydroxy citronellal - 25
    aldehyde C-14 10% - 20
    Musk Xylene (or substitute with another musk) - 50
    Vanillin - 20
    DEP or IPM or DPG 200

    I would replace the Musk Xylene (now banned from use) with Ambrettolide or Velvione and the civet tincture with synthetic civet (the Firmenich one is very good). The PA entry does not mention it but Costus is now also prohibited by IFRA but again there is a direct replacement available (this time from Givaudan I think - it isn’t a material I use normally).

    Tarragon is more usually called Estragon in perfumery so you may see the oil listed under that name.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Thanks for that Chris! gives me some good ideas on further ingredients to add to my minimal structure.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Thank you guys. Thank you thank you...

  6. #6

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Am definitely going to add some oud and orris, and let see....

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Thanks Chris,
    i love chypre perfumes, so i have created ( with modification ) the Mitsouko perfume you have posted. This is my first perfume which really smell good. I have lowered patchouli to 0.05% ( next time i will remove it completely - i dont like patchouli i have here - even at this low concentration ).
    I have replaced musks with 4% ambrettolide + 1% velvione. I have not added Dimethyl Anthranilate, Anisyl Acetate, Citral, because i dont have them...Civet tincture replaced with Civet CNC 0.06%

    BTW: any replacement for IFRA restricted ethyl cinnamate ?.
    Last edited by Milhaus; 20th August 2014 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Replacing some coumarin and vanillin with the adjusted quantities of the respective tinctures improved the perfume, for me. I would replace musk xylene with ketone, as much as possible, and adjust the strength/soapiness with iso-muscone and velvione.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Is the quantity of clove oil a misprint? 30 seems an awful lot!

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    Is the quantity of clove oil a misprint? 30 seems an awful lot!
    So, may I assume that you are discussing the Mitsuoko Formula? (you weren't specific)

    If so, then is there some reason that you consider 3% to be a highly potent amount for a fragrance? But if it really bothers you, then use less, or not at all. YOU'RE the Perfumer! :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Hi,
    i am trying to improve Mitsouko formula posted above. I have replaced Ethyl cinnamate with cinnamic alcohol - IMHO it does fit better in lilac heart and with amber base. I have added styrax,olibanum,myrrh, replaced vanillin with vanilla tincture, added heliotropin, terpineol, PEA etc... Please does have anyone GCMS of Mitsouko - for personal use ? I would like to know what is there in addition to above ingredients.
    Last edited by Milhaus; 13th November 2014 at 08:29 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    So, may I assume that you are discussing the Mitsuoko Formula? (you weren't specific)

    If so, then is there some reason that you consider 3% to be a highly potent amount for a fragrance? But if it really bothers you, then use less, or not at all. YOU'RE the Perfumer! :-)

    PK
    I was indeed discussing the MITSOUKO formula, of which there are two. Only ONE mentions 30 parts of clove, so I didn't think I needed to be specific
    And yes, there is some reason why I consider 3% of clove to be a highly potent amount for a fragrance. Clove is a very potent material
    I'm quite familiar with Mitsouko and I don't detect high levels of clove in there. I assumed it might have been a misprint: maybe 3 instead of 30, or 30 @ 10%. However, maybe it forms an accord with something which 'defuses' it. I know that some of the PA formulas contain unusual amounts of certain things. I remember making their Pina Colada accord which had a massive overdose of Pharaone (one of my least favourite materials). I made it anyway and guess what? It had a massive overdose of Pharaone!

    So, I shall rephrase my question: Is there anyone who is familiar with Mitsouko who feels that 3% of clove is a mistake? I'd like to build that formula, but I don't want to find I've wasted lots of precious materials due to an overdose of clove

  13. #13

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I am using 3% of methyl iso eugenol. But i have never smelled vintage Mitsouko

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Trufflehunter, I don't think 3% of clove oil is too much. I have a tiny sample of vintage Mitsouko and indeed there is a strong clove note. I would guess it is even backed up with more isoeugenol for the base notes, but that's just a guess. I haven't made up the formula posted here, but I made up my own one with 3% clove oil and it smells pretty close. I would say one thing in particular missing from the formula here is orris, which seems very prominent to me in Mitsouko. Maybe it was based on a GCMS of a different concentration such as the Eau de Toilette.

    BTW, I just got the Scent & Chemistry book the other day and have been scanning through it. It says Mitsouko contained 10% of vetiver oil.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Renegade do you mean orris absolute or orris butter ? The orris note is made here with methyl ionone ( gamma will be stronger ), but we need to support it with orris butter or orris absolute to make it stronger.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I don't know which would have been used, if any, just that there seems to me to be a strong orris note in addition to the methyl ionone. I used 5% Orris Oil (=Butter) in mine (which seems like a huge amount to me) and Mitsouko still seems to have a stronger orris note. It's that characteristic dry, dusty effect that I seem to be picking up on. Maybe cinnamon bark oil plays a part in it too. I also have a LOT more oakmoss and patchouli in mine than in the formula posted here.

  17. #17

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    That is probably orris absolute. This is very strong orris note. Orris butter give more floral/waxy note. I have thought 7% of oakmoss is strooong - i am using only 3% in my Mitsouko version. 10% of vetiver oil sounds little too much - some vintage perfumes does use combination of vetiveryl acetate with vetiver oil in ratio 5:2 , maybe this is bad interpretation of GCMS results...

  18. #18

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Photo removed by request. The requester suggested to replace it with a list. My workload is far from able to allow me to do so. Maybe someone here who saved the picture could post the written formula only, no picture please.?
    Last edited by pkiler; 14th November 2014 at 02:46 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  19. #19

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Basic Chypre-type Perfume

    Bergomot oil 15
    Sandalwood EI 8
    Vetiver Oil 6
    Oakmoss 5
    Rose Base 6
    Jasmine Base 5
    Gama Methyl ionone 3
    Patchouli oil 5
    Musk Ketone 3
    Clary Sage 2

    This is from Introduction to Perfumery (Curtis and Williams). I've made it and the dry down is very similar to my sample of Vintage Mitsuko. The musk ketone really does it along with a high level of vetiver. It's worth trying, I love it and it's simple.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post

    This is a pre WWII Mitsuoko Formula that a few of us stumbled upon. Maybe it will help you out...

    PK
    Wow. Thanks for posting that, Paul. Two things stand out there:

    1. No Giroffle (clove)!
    2. A stack of Reseda Absolute!
    Last edited by Trufflehunter; 14th November 2014 at 11:13 AM. Reason: removed photo of formula

  21. #21

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    I was indeed discussing the MITSOUKO formula, of which there are two. Only ONE mentions 30 parts of clove, so I didn't think I needed to be specific
    And yes, there is some reason why I consider 3% of clove to be a highly potent amount for a fragrance. Clove is a very potent material
    I'm quite familiar with Mitsouko and I don't detect high levels of clove in there. I assumed it might have been a misprint: maybe 3 instead of 30, or 30 @ 10%. However, maybe it forms an accord with something which 'defuses' it. I know that some of the PA formulas contain unusual amounts of certain things. I remember making their Pina Colada accord which had a massive overdose of Pharaone (one of my least favourite materials). I made it anyway and guess what? It had a massive overdose of Pharaone!

    So, I shall rephrase my question: Is there anyone who is familiar with Mitsouko who feels that 3% of clove is a mistake? I'd like to build that formula, but I don't want to find I've wasted lots of precious materials due to an overdose of clove
    As a guess, I'd think your guess is right on the clove, but I don't know.

    In any case personally I'd never use a large amount of materials when anything is in question. I'd try titrating clove into only a small portion and see what amount seemed right, and decide from that.

  22. #22

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    No Clove, but Dianthine base. Do you HAVE Dianthine base, probably not. My Dianthine base I bought as old stock I had analyzed. It is 40% Eugenol.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  23. #23

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    PS. The more I study bases, the more I see Eugenol in so many of them and at high amounts.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  24. #24

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    Wow. Thanks for posting that, Paul. Two things stand out there:

    1. No Giroffle (clove)!
    2. A stack of Reseda Absolute!
    Also only a tiny amount of moss (not sure what the word after "Mousse" is... "Cawili"?). And no coumarin (as far I can see). Doesn't look right to me at all, but then I haven't tried it.

    But thanks for posting Paul. Interesting the small amounts of camomile and tarragon, also included in the Appell formula.

  25. #25

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I dont see any amber note ...
    BTW what does mean Portugal deterpené 10%...?
    Last edited by Milhaus; 13th November 2014 at 08:40 PM.

  26. #26

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I LOVE chamomile notes in fragrances. It's what makes Fahrenheit great IMO, which is ironic given that in terms of herbology it's considered a refrigerant. http://www.changeyourenergy.com/well...ool-with-herbs
    Last edited by superfluousPastry; 14th November 2014 at 02:30 AM.
    Smell my finger.

  27. #27

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    I dont see any amber note ...
    BTW what does mean Portugal deterpené 10%...?
    Probably sweet orange oil, terpeneless.

  28. #28

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    I dont see any amber note ...
    BTW what does mean Portugal deterpené 10%...?

    Ambrette Seed Absolute...

    eau de portugal water reference?

    dunno.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  29. #29

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharmacist_Blender View Post
    Basic Chypre-type Perfume

    Bergomot oil 15
    Sandalwood EI 8
    Vetiver Oil 6
    Oakmoss 5
    Rose Base 6
    Jasmine Base 5
    Gama Methyl ionone 3
    Patchouli oil 5
    Musk Ketone 3
    Clary Sage 2

    This is from Introduction to Perfumery (Curtis and Williams). I've made it and the dry down is very similar to my sample of Vintage Mitsuko. The musk ketone really does it along with a high level of vetiver. It's worth trying, I love it and it's simple.

    This may be close, as according to Jean-Paul Guerlain said himself in his book, Mitsouko only has 10 ingredients!

  30. #30

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    2. A stack of Reseda Absolute!
    The Reseda Abs is 1% of the formula:
    (30 of a 10% solution, = 3,
    and total value of Formula is 300 (295),
    = 1% Reseda Abs.)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  31. #31

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Regarding Dianthene, I'm thinking Methyl Diantilis?
    And regarding Reseda, is that even available? This is mignonnette, which is one of the most beautifully perfumed flowers in the known universe.

  32. #32

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphaea View Post
    This may be close, as according to Jean-Paul Guerlain said himself in his book, Mitsouko only has 10 ingredients!
    What a great idea for a challenge exercise. Who can come up with the ten ingredients?
    The following are a given:

    1. oak moss and lots of it
    2. Bergamot and lots of it too!
    3. Ionones
    4. C14 for the peach note
    5. Vetiver/Labdanum/patchouli to form the chypre accord with the oak moss
    6. Musk Ketone
    7. Jasmine
    8. Rose

    What are the two "mystery modifiers"? Chamomile?, Estragon (tarragon)?, Reseda???

  33. #33

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I dont see any cinnamon note mentioned on fragrantica http://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/G...fum-25316.html

  34. #34

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    (Post amended - Thank you)

    1940's Mitsouko re-creation - typed list in next post. - Thanks Trufflehunter

    See here for the Jicky one at post 20 onwards, and if you've got a few thousand spare to spend on purchasing the formulas.

  35. #35

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    ...Please can everyone amend their posting accordingly to remove the actual image and replace it with typed formula notes...
    Not bossy at all!
    I've done my best to transcribe the pesky french handwriting :

    Bergamotte 45
    Acetate Linalyle 15
    Rose de Grasse du Bulgare 6
    Portugal déterpené (10%) 6
    Iralia 7
    Patchouly vieux extra 6
    Ylang Ylang Manilla 3
    Civette 40 Giv. 6
    Estragon (10%) 9
    Sauge Sclarée 1
    Ambrette absolue (10%) 3
    Dianthine 18030 4.5
    Iris absolue (10%) 30
    Mousse Cannili (Camili?)* (10%) 15
    Reseda Acheros** absolue (10%) 30
    Undecalactone (10%) 1
    Jasmin absolue 10
    Cassis absolue (10%) 3
    Musc Ketone 8
    Vetyverol 3
    Camomille Romain (10%) 4
    Vanilline 0.5
    Jasmin B.D. Roure*** 79****

    * No idea what sort of moss this is. Oak Moss is “Mousse de Chêne”
    ** Reseda is Mignonette, but no idea what Acheros is
    *** http://www.perfumeprojects.com/museu...rs/Roure.shtml
    **** must be a jasmin tincture at this quantity
    Last edited by Trufflehunter; 14th November 2014 at 12:00 PM.

  36. #36

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    And tree moss is Mousse d'arbre.

    The only mousse cannili I found, referred to a chocolate mousse for eating.

  37. #37

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    In older formula is often mentioned Oakmoss absolute ( Camilli ). Dominique Camilli of Molinard is perfumer.

  38. #38

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Camilli was (is?) a supplier of Essential oils and Absolutes. Jasmin BD will be a specific Jasmin base. Reseda is, probably, no longer available. Poucher suggests that Reseda smells like Violet Leaf with a touch of Basil.

  39. #39

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I'd bet that Acheros is another supplier.


    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  40. #40

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trufflehunter View Post
    What a great idea for a challenge exercise. Who can come up with the ten ingredients?
    The following are a given:

    1. oak moss and lots of it
    2. Bergamot and lots of it too!
    3. Ionones
    4. C14 for the peach note
    5. Vetiver/Labdanum/patchouli to form the chypre accord with the oak moss
    6. Musk Ketone
    7. Jasmine
    8. Rose

    What are the two "mystery modifiers"? Chamomile?, Estragon (tarragon)?, Reseda???

    Perhaps Pepper or Anisic Aldehyde?

  41. #41

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    There must be some Civet there surely. And something herbal; Estragon would fit.

  42. #42

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    I just found this in one of my old books

    Essence of Reseda (artificial, almost indistinguishable from the genuine)

    Tonka beans, in pieces - 30 grains
    Storax, liquid - 15 grains
    Orris root - 1 3/4 oz
    Oil of neroli - 10 drops
    Oil of rose - 10 drops
    Oil of bitter almond - 2 drops
    Oil of bergamot - 20 drops
    Ambergris - 15 grains
    Musk - 8 grains
    Nettle herb - 30 grains
    Alcohol 1/2 lb

    Macerate for from one to two weeks, and filter

    So this suggests reseda to be a fairly strong musty herbal floral/citrus thing

  43. #43

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Wow, great find, mumsy! Nettle herb is an interesting item. I actually have some stinging nettle abs from Hermitage and I've been wondering what to do with it. I have no orris, so I'll subs ionone alpha and heliotropin replacer for the bitter almond. I know the smell of reseda (mignonette) from our family garden when I was a kid and I remember it being an exquisite, light, ethereal thing that totally fascinated me, particularly given that the little plant itself looks like a nasty weed.
    But those quantities! Grains 'n drops 'n ounces. How will I ever figure that out?

  44. #44

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    We had a whole thread on that once. I will look for it later.

    This is on our trusty good scents guide under conversions. How I love that site. (Thank you GSG)

    Drams (avdp) = grains X 27.3437
    Drams (avdp) = grams X 1.7718
    Drams (avdp) = ounces X 0.0625
    Fluid Drams = millileters X 3.6967
    Fluid Drams = minims X 60.0
    Fluid Drams = fluid ounces X 0.125
    Fluid Ounces = fluid drams X 8.0

  45. #45

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Have a look here for a complete reference on old weight and volume measurements.
    See p.8, upper rt corner for grains to grams
    http://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/upl...al-rev6-12.pdf

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  46. #46

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Thank you PK, that is the one I was looking for.

  47. #47
    Basenotes Member
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    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Reseda formula from Anonis/Gattefossé 1950
    250 alpha ionone
    50 Orris resinoid
    100 Methyl ionone
    100 Phenyl propyl acetate
    200 Geraniol palmarosa
    75 Phenyl ethyl acetate
    25 Styralyl acetate
    25 Methyl nonyl ketone
    75 Bergamot
    100 Terpineol
    1000
    Could Portugal déterpené (10%) be Petitgrain?

    "The composition of Mitsouko is very concise, which is also true for Nahéma. Each of them holds twelve materials." explained Jean-Paul Guerlain in his autobiographical Les Routes de Mes Parfums." That is from a fascinating article here http://www.monsieur-guerlain.com/2008/06/mitsouko.html

    Could one of the 12 ingredients be an earlier Chypre eg Chypre de Paris, because ...
    "Jacques Guerlain’s formula for Cuir de Russie indeed does list Mitsouko, and also Chypre de Paris, as an ingredient. It wasn’t uncommon for Jacques Guerlain to recycle a formula inside a new formula, something which perfumers call “formule à tiroir”, that is, to work with a formula that you already have in your drawer."

    I do hope Mumsy loses the lottery again this week, as just the two Guerlain formulae are quite enough for now.
    Last edited by nemenator; 22nd November 2014 at 11:10 PM.

  48. #48

    Default Re: How to built a Chypre ( Mitsouko direction) accord.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    I do hope Mumsy loses the lottery again this week....
    Oi...... 'twas you then.....

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