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  1. #91
    Dependent heperd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    "Sense of smell, perfume/scent/odours and our reaction, our perception is so deeply entrenched/involved with our conscious and subliminal brain, affected by our hormonal systems, brain neurotransmitters, our health, forget about cultural influences, upbringing, and other social variables that most neuro-olfactory scientists/psychiatrists will tell you that to view perfume 'objectively' is not possible.
    And anyone who disagrees, you are welcome to peruse through medical literature first and then debate"

    Great point. Even if we think we are being objective, we have no idea what is actually forming that though. We can be somewhat objective, which really is not objective at all....

    Then again, we have no obligation to be objective in our opinions of any type of art.
    Want to trade - Chanel Platinum Egoiste for Dior Eau Sauvage...
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/394...82#post3308582

  2. #92
    Dependent heperd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    "Sense of smell, perfume/scent/odours and our reaction, our perception is so deeply entrenched/involved with our conscious and subliminal brain, affected by our hormonal systems, brain neurotransmitters, our health, forget about cultural influences, upbringing, and other social variables that most neuro-olfactory scientists/psychiatrists will tell you that to view perfume 'objectively' is not possible.
    And anyone who disagrees, you are welcome to peruse through medical literature first and then debate"

    Great point. Even if we think we are being objective, we have no idea what is actually forming that though. We can be somewhat objective, which really is not objective at all....

    Then again, we have no obligation to be objective in our opinions of any type of art.
    Want to trade - Chanel Platinum Egoiste for Dior Eau Sauvage...
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/394...82#post3308582

  3. #93

    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Asaskian View Post
    Symphonies:That is a sweeping statement mon ami.... :-)
    I won't argue the semantics, for it shall turn into another long diatribe.

    One thing I can comment on since I've studied it in detail is the olfactory brain, its association with memory, emotion, subconscious, etc, etc. Whether you consider perfume/scent art or not-an-art-form depends on your definition of art (in truth), one can argue it to eternal death and still pull up a point to light the fire again.

    Sense of smell, perfume/scent/odours and our reaction, our perception is so deeply entrenched/involved with our conscious and subliminal brain, affected by our hormonal systems, brain neurotransmitters, our health, forget about cultural influences, upbringing, and other social variables that most neuro-olfactory scientists/psychiatrists will tell you that to view perfume 'objectively' is not possible.
    And anyone who disagrees, you are welcome to peruse through medical literature first and then debate.
    I think this is going off the deep end. There is an inherent contradiction in the title of this thread because a judgment of good/bad is inherently subjective and not objective. The objectivity comes in hindsight from critics and historians who reflect on what was groundbreaking, influential, recognized by many as beautiful, etc. You can say "I define art how I want to" and that's it's purely emotional or medical or whatever; but while you're doing so, many others are working through the vehicle of criticism to form a consensus around what truly deserves to be remembered and why. Individually, they will never all agree. But ultimately, hundreds of years from now, in the archives of the Osmothèque great effort may still be taken to preserve those that are considered true works of art. And the criteria they use, arguably objective criteria at that point, are not going to have anything to do with, for example, my irrational emotional attachment to Windsor because it reminds me of my childhood.

    Here are some objective criteria that can be used to judge perfumes:

    * Sales numbers
    * Numerical critical reviews
    * Number of similar fragrances spawned after the original's creation
    * Frequency of being faked
    * Frequency of being smelled in passing on the street
    * Price
    * Change in valuation after discontinuation
    * Quantity Produced
    * The critical evaluation of people we appoint to positions in academia or institutes of preservation
    * Feedback from ordinary people gathered by polling
    * Tallying of critical assessments from Basenotes and otehr critical forums
    (etc.)

    So, of course our subjective judgments are grounded in all sorts of irrational bases. But don't think for one second that the great machinery of Art won't bulldoze through them. It's only a question of whether you want to be included in the discussion.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    ...
    Last edited by Guest05; 26th March 2012 at 10:46 PM.

  5. #95

    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Asaskian View Post
    Ah, there we go again. (grin)
    You can say however you want to say it, but objectivity in perfume has been a conundrum forever. Ask any well known perfumer....
    You are trying to separate olfaction (scent)'s very scientific/engraved in our brain aspects from its critique as an art form (perfumes).... (to me) it doesn't work; just doesn't.
    But as I said, I am not getting into it.
    And there is no going off the deep end here: we are in a deep ravine, perfume-to-nowhere, already.
    For you it doesn't work. That just means everyone else moves on without you.
    Last edited by Beranium Chotato; 27th March 2012 at 12:11 AM.

  6. #96
    Guest05
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    ...
    Last edited by Guest05; 26th March 2012 at 10:46 PM.

  7. #97
    Ursula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Looks like, "what comes first - the chicken or the egg ?"

    When establishing perfume as an object of value (a piece of art), we have to consider what went into it. Precious and rare raw materials ... How well was the scent executed by the crafty perfumer ... Is the perfume unique in its make-up ?

    Only after that foundation can we measure sales, popularity, worthy to be in the Osmotheque.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  8. #98

    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Asaskian View Post
    So since when did you starting representing the white/grey matter of world intelligentsia, BC?
    You can say "I" will move on without.... everyone else is a "very" generalised statement.
    That is why I said, 'to me'. Others are free to process however they want to and welcome to it.
    I don't represent them, Asaskian. I too am just a helpless person with silly opinions standing in the way of their inevitable march toward decisions about what will be looked back upon as great (or not). I mean people like Luca Turin and other deeply knowledgeable people who today are shaping the views of how great perfumes will be reflected upon. But I would much rather that really smart people like you--instead of saying it's all subjective/irrational/personal/medical/etc.--actually stay in the conversation. Our influence is miniscule, but hey, at least we might help sway opinion in next year's awards toward something more interesting than Royal Oud. it's a start.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    Looks like, "what comes first - the chicken or the egg ?"
    Well it's the chicken.........as it is the perfumer.........

  10. #100
    Ursula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    BUMP

    I dug out this very old thread. Mainly for the newbies to read.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  11. #101
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    I think your Stanislav Lem quote addresses the OP quite directly and succinctly... "There are no answers, only choices."
    Wanna Shop? --> Buzier's Sales

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Then why are we here on Basenotes if not passionately argue, ponder, wonder about the miracle of well crafted scents.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  13. #103

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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    Then why are we here on Basenotes if not passionately argue, ponder, wonder about the miracle of well crafted scents.
    Well, to ask what will get us laid, of course!

    Actually, I've really been enjoying the rose thread started recently by rubegon. That discussion has me thinking more about perfume in the context of other arts. Like the pulp short story v. the novel with so many layers that it rewards multiple readings with new perspective and insight. Both are of value, and you may want one or the other at any given time.

    I think it's the same with perfume, although the problem with perfume for me is that I still don't feel like I have the vocabulary to understand or express what's happening.

  14. #104
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    I dug out this very old topic, among others, to add some discussion material to the tapestry of the Board. Shortly after the Return Home from Huddler platform, the Boards seemed empty and like ghost town.

    The long standing members have already posted, time and again. This revived topic is for the benefit of newcomers and for them it may be new and novel. At least reading it might be enlightening.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  15. #105
    DuNezDeBuzier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Objectively judging the quality of a fragrance as good or bad

    Thank you. It's a good discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    Then why are we here on Basenotes if not passionately argue, ponder, wonder about the miracle of well crafted scents.
    Hope my post was not misunderstood. Pondering is good!

    My sentiments and personal philosophy on the matter re the OP coincide nicely with Lem's words, I think. On the continuum that is subjective/objective at the poles, I personally choose to see subjective=opinion and objective=cold hard fact that can be replicated by all. About the only thing objective re fragrance is how much the bottle weighs and, if you happen to have a gc/ms unit available, an itemized list of what it contains (perhaps there is some subjective analysis that goes on with that process as well, no?). All the rest is just subjective opinion on what accords exist, their quality, how strong they are perceived, how complex they are perceived, how long they are perceived, how well it is constructed, etc. All subjective opinion from our different olfactory systems off fragrance whose bottles/decants/samples could not possibly have been handled/stored identically and are constantly being reformulated or tweaked by those who manufacture. One can go to the best of schools, apprentice for years, and/or become a master but that doesn't change that it's still subjective opinion. Sure it becomes a more educated, informed, credible opinion, yet it remains but subjective opinion. I choose to see things this way because, simply put, fifty plus years of life experiences tell me that it makes most sense to see things this way. As I continue to learn I can always choose to change my thinking.
    Wanna Shop? --> Buzier's Sales

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