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  1. #1

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I have heliotropin crystals that I want to dissolve in alcohol. Does anyone know what percentage is good?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I have mine at 10% - no particular difficulty with dissolving these.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Im happy to quote: if you want free advice, thats what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Is Heliotrope available from a naturally derived source... or is it an aroma chemical?

    Thanks,
    Tania
    Tania

    www.PureNaturalDiva.com

  4. #4

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    AS far as I am aware there is not Heliotrope extract or oil. Heliotropin is made synthetically.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by PureNaturalDiva View Post
    Is Heliotrope available from a naturally derived source... or is it an aroma chemical?

    Thanks,
    Tania
    Heliotropine is an aroma chemical that can be synthesised cheaply and extracted from natural sources more expensively.

    Heliotropine was discovered in 1869 by Fittig and Mielk who synthesised it and thus made the 'cherry pie' note of the Heliotrope flower, for which it is named, available to perfumers for the first time. It is used for vanilla or almond accords or to bring a balsamic character and also has powdery, floral aspects.

    Heliotropine (or Piperonal - they are the same molecule) occurs naturally in a range of botanicals including dill, violet flowers, black pepper and others and is also commonly used as a flavouring, where the natural extract is more commonly used. Perfumers normally work with the cheaper synthetic version.

    You can buy the natural extract from several sources, though not easily due to licensing and minimum order quantities. Here are some examples of companies that stock it:

    Advanced Biotech

    Moellhausen

    Vigon

    Omega Ingredients
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Im happy to quote: if you want free advice, thats what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Chris,
    You are a wealth of information on this board. I have learnt so much from reading your generously crafted responses to others. Thank you for this response as well... I'll investigate your links.

    Tania
    Tania

    www.PureNaturalDiva.com

  7. #7

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Whilst it is available, why would anyone want to use "natural" Heliotropin when the synthetic is so much cheaper, and (usually) better quality. And I repeat, there is no commercially available Heliotrope oil (i.e. the oil from the flower). Oh, and by the way, there is no Heliotropin in Heliotrope (according to Wikepedia anyway).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I should probably confess at this point that I wrote that part of the Wikipedia article!

    I've seen claims that there is an oil extracted from the flowers (on the Wiki article on Heliotropium genus for example) but I've not been able to establish whether it's true: I'm certainly unaware of any such oil. If I can find out for sure I'll correct that article too.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Im happy to quote: if you want free advice, thats what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    David,
    I think there are many times in life when we choose to pay more for things... it just depends on your goals and tastes...
    For my purposes I'm afraid I fall on the natural side... this does not appear to be popular in the perfumer circle, but it is in line my personal values and beliefs. So as I'm crafting, my ingredients need to align accordingly... even if it means overcoming obstacles such as higher price and sourcing challenges.
    Tania

    www.PureNaturalDiva.com

  10. #10

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Perfumer's Apprentice stocks a "Heliotropin Replacer" at 50%. Does anyone know anything about this? They provide no further information as to exactly what this substance is. Is it a single aromachemical, or, as I suspect, a blend?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    PND, I respect your choices, I just don't agree with them. If it pleases you to think that there is some magic mystical power in all things "natural", that (for example) a molecule of Heliotropin extracted from an essential oil is somehow better than a molecule made in a lab, then you go ahead. I just think you are wrong.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    David, I completely agree with you. But, as someone who has only recently moved on to aromachemicals, out of frustration over trying to work (largely unsuccessfully) with all naturals, despite having amassed over a hundred of them, I understand and respect PND's philosophy and aesthetics. I would now much rather use coumarin than fiddle with the mess, expense and inconsistency of tonka beans, but I admire those who insist on the discipline of the opposing view.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    To me, as a perfumer (retired) the naturals and synthetics each have their own role to play. There are many notes unachievable using only naturals; there are many naturals that cannot be copied by using synthetics. My aim, as a perfumer, was to create the best fragrance that I could. I cannot believe that an Essential oil (which shouldn't be thought of as a single material; Essential Oils contain hundreds of chemicals) has a special property simply because it has been extracted from a living thing. The idea of "vitalism"; the living "spark" died out in the 19th century. It is just not true that a molecule extracted from an oil is somehow better than the same molecule made in a lab. Coumarin is coumarin however it is derived. The only difference that could possibly have any affect is the difference in the optical isomerism of a naturally derived molecule and a synthetically derived one. Even that does not involve the mystical and magical.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I have a memory that it is used in Chinese medicine for purging toxins. I will check up on that.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  15. #15

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    My interest in natural actually has little to do with aromatherapy benefits. I just don't think it's healthy to be recreating nature in a lab... I believe that the thousands of chemicals that we are constantly exposed to are not healthy. I know it's not a belief held by others in this forum. My hope is that we can respectfully agree to disagree.
    That said... I need to be as informed as possible about all the naturally derived options available for me to use.
    Tania
    Tania

    www.PureNaturalDiva.com

  16. #16

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    "I just don't think it's healthy to be recreating nature in a lab..." Why?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Do you not find the very modern chemical formulas are aggravating to the sinuses in a way that natural ones are not?

    I have many very powerful naturals, but they do not hurt my nose in the same way as a synthetic can.

    Is the world not seeing an increase in allergies and respiratory problems?

    I'm not saying they all do, nor that it is only the fault of perfumes. Just a noted is-ness.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  18. #18

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    "Do you not find the very modern chemical formulas are aggravating to the sinuses in a way that natural ones are not?"

    No.

    As the "very modern formulas" contain naturals as well as synthetics. As have perfumes since the beginning of the 20th century.

    "I have many very powerful naturals, but they do not hurt my nose in the same way as a synthetic can."

    Surely this depends on the strength (dilution) of the material, and the material itself. I have heard that smelling pure Narcissus Absolute can give you a nose bleed. I find grating horseradish very unpleasant to my nose. I do not find Hedione unpleasant even if I smell it at 100.0% concentration.

    "Is the world not seeing an increase in allergies and respiratory problems?"

    Possibly but if so I think it due to the increase in pollution due to increase in cars etc. rather than the use of fragrances. Increase in allergies is an interesting one. Certainly an increase in asthma in children, and an increase in food intolerances. More likely due to the wipe clean society that does allow babies to build up a proper immune system.

    We have had this discussion before and I think it best that we agree to disagree, although I am still waiting for a sound explanation as to why you think the way you do. I have not yet had one.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I'm not saying they all do, nor that it is only the fault of perfumes. Just a noted is-ness.
    I had a slight disclaimer there but I will explain one day on another thread and with more time. I have a million good reasons.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  20. #20

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Mumsy, so far you haven't named one.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    My God.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  22. #22

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by PureNaturalDiva View Post
    this does not appear to be popular in the perfumer circle
    au contraire: I never met anyone in the 'perfumer circle' who does not like or use naturals, I think those people are very, very rare.

    On the other hand, if there is not an olfactorial reason for it most perfumers will not use the natural in case a good synthetic is available. I like geraniol ex palmarosa, but in most cases ordinary synthetical geraniol (made from purely natural pinene) will do fine.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    If any ingredient isn't available in the perfumers palette for any reason, either expense, availability, refusal to use, etc etc, then it is totally fine to use a substitute of another or an accord built to emulate as closely as possible the scent desired. The reason for the use or the non-use of anything is of no consequence to anyone except the actual perfume designer themselves.

    Without an extremely advanced level of skill and knowledge, then no great barriers are going to be met at the beginning of perfumery because the skills are not great enough at that stage to find them. Maybe later, that will be so.

    If Heliotropin is only available to the chemical perfumer, then another accord can be built instead for the natural perfumer. It is surely a good thing that there is a definite distinction between the two paths. If cost is not a driving consideration, then surely the 'best quality' is the right thing to use either way.

    I happen to interpret 'best' as 'pure, natural, untampered with, and as near to it's source as I can achieve'.
    It is of no consequence to a natural perfumers choices if someone else does not share this view, and just because one takes that view, it does not stop one from hearing and heeding anyone else's. All views are good learning experiences.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  24. #24

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    @janmeut, great to see you here again
    I totally agree, and I think that is also @mumsy's point: whatever fits your fancy for whatever reason.
    Innovation and creativity are often born out of limitation.
    @SomethingSmelly

  25. #25

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Interesting article and picture on Heliotropin, and also reference to it "becoming increasingly regulated due to its potential use in the illegal production of ecstasy and other designer drugs".

    http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/t...opinsmall.html
    My "Lab" setup

    QUINTESCENTIAL PERFUME
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Dear Truffle hunter,
    At the risk of being gross, I recently returned from a trip to Costa Rica. When I returned, my dirty laundry smelled exactly like black Perigord truffles. Just a thought. As concerns heliotropin replacer, I just ordered some and compared it with heliotropin. They are very similar and for my (not so great) nose it was hard to tell the difference. I may have detected a stronger chemical quality in the heliotropin replacer but it wasn't enough to be disturbing. I suggest you order a little of the replacer (Perfumers' Apprentice?) and compare. Good luck.

  27. #27
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    James, PA's Heliotropin Replacer is in fact Heliotropin in another material at 50%. (Can't remember what though presently.) Just use twice as much. This is for legal ramifications only

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    On the subject of naturals verse synthetics, I as a student perfumer enjoy using both natural and synthetic materials in my formulations. When I first set out to make perfume I thought it was done with all natural ingredients, but when I learned otherwise I felt like it opened a whole new door of creativity. While I respect those that chose to work with all naturals, I don't agree that synthetics should be looked at as some form of witch craft or satanic magic that should never be placed on the skin. When I create I set out to create the best fragrance I possibly can by using what ever ingredients are required to achieve that goal be it naturals or synthetics. Also, considering the fact that every single essential oil have over 100 CHEMICALS in it to begin with, a chemical is a chemical is a chemical doesn't matter wether it's made by man or nature. The only time I chose to work with only essential oils is when I create beard oils and post shave serums for sale and that's only for marketing because of the "organic trend". If I had the choice Id use synthetics in my beard oils too because so much can be achieved creatively by the use of both. Paul Kiler and his line of PK Perfumes is an exceptional example of this. He uses both synthetics and natural materials in harmony with one another to create some of the best fragrances I've ever smelled and many times when I've worn them people have asked me if I bought th fragrance from an all natural perfumer because they smell that "real". I think synthetics should stopped being looked at as such a bad thing.
    Last edited by natureknowsbest; 3rd February 2015 at 01:19 AM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    I think synthetics are looked at negatively by only a small, vocal minority. I personally like working with natural fragrances but am expanding with AC's too. Niche marketing is what it is though and everyone's money spends the same . In the end we should just make what we like and sell to the appropriate markets.

  30. #30
    Super Member nicok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heliotrope / Heliotropin

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    James, PA's Heliotropin Replacer is in fact Heliotropin in another material at 50%. (Can't remember what though presently.) Just use twice as much. This is for legal ramifications only

    PK
    It's in benzyl benzoate.

    This replacer can be used as normal heliotropin. Benzyl benzoate has no impact on the scent.


    As to natural perfumers, I don't how they propagate, every now and then a new one appears in the forum.

    To clarify few things: There is NO SUCH THING as natural perfumer.
    It is just Perfumer. Otherwise I should be called non natural!

    'Natural' perfumer is a person obsessed with a subgroup of the perfumery palette and refuses to use the rest of it.

    'Natural' perfumer is a person with inadequate education (or denialism) to be able to understand that eugenol from the lab is the very same thing with eugenol from clove oil.

    'Natural' Perfumer is a person who denies to admit that all natural perfumes smell horrible and they are not wearable!

    Did anyone of you go to a date or at work wearing one of your all natural creations?

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