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  1. #1

    Default Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    I want to build a rose accord just with chemicals. But I dont want the dried-smoky-petals one. I want the green-metallic one, like when you open and sniff a bottle of rose otto. SUGESTIONS? thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Depends what access to chemicals you have. You need PEA, Citronellol and Geraniol. Ionones, and damascones. Then if you can get it a material called Rosalva. Also Rosascene. Can't remember who males these, but they have the metallic note you are after. Green metallic means Triplal, or iso Cyclocitral. That is just for starters, and off my head. No doubt others will suggest more; eh Chris?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Those are all good suggestions David and not a whole lot to add. I know Rosalva as Trepanol or Decylenic alchohol it is made by IFF but I buy mine from Hekserij, the others are widely available other than the Rosascene which I donít have or know. You probably also want some Eugenol, Linalool, Nerol and a little Citral - again all widely available.

    Another material you could consider would be rose oxide, which is in Bulgarian rose otto and, curiously, also in Gewurtztraminer wine, which was what caused me to buy some.

    Looking at the Rose Base in my Curtis & Williams, they also suggest C11 enic, C8 and C12 lauric and I can see that including the aldehydes would help make it more sharp and metallic, the C12 in particular.

    As modifiers they suggest iso-Butyle phenyl acetate, Phenylpropyl alcohol, Geranyl butyrate, Phenylethyl butyrate and Trichloromethylphenylcarbinyl acetate. However Iíve not tried any of those in a rose accord myself.

    Other options include pre-made rose bases, such as Dorina SA E or Rose Givco 217. Perfumerís Apprentice has this Rose Accord on offer (either pre-made or you can make your own from their formula):

    Peonile - 40
    dimethyl Benzyl Carbinyl Acetate - 30
    Geranyl Acetate - 25
    Phenyl Ethyl Phenyl Acetate - 20
    Citronellol - 20
    Undecavertol - 6
    Phenyl Ethyl Acetate - 5
    Rose Oxide - 3
    Damascone Delta - 2

    and I donít think Iíd have come up with Peonile if I hadnít just looked that up, so thatís a bit of learning for me too.
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    Chris Bartlett
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  4. #4
    gido's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    here's a blurb from gielen aromatics, a dutch site that lists constituents of natural oils and so on. google translate did the job for me,

    Monoterpenes: limonene, myrcene, a-and b-pinene. Olen monoterpenes: geraniol 20%, octanol, terpinen-4-ol, citronellol 34-55%, 30-40% nerol, linalool, eugenol. Aromatic alcohols: phenylethylalcohol 1%. Sesquiterpenische alcohols: farnesol, hexanol, terpenic esters 2.5-6%, citronelllylacetate, geranyl acetate, nerylacetaat. Phenols and phenol methyl ethers: methyl ether 1% eugenol, methyleugenol, ethanol, methylheptenon, carvone. Acids: Rose oxide 10%. Aldehydes: cinnamaldehyden, benzaldehyde, decanal, geranial, heptanal, octanal, neral, Sulfur-containing compounds: a-and b-damascenon, ionone and many trace constituents. Most of the trace components are not to reproduce in a laboratory. Rose oil is often adulterated with palmarosa and geranium oil.

    you can find the entire entry on rose damascene here:
    http://www.gielenaroma.nl/index.php?page=rosa-damascena

    very interesting site.

    if you have any translation problems, feel free to ask me. dutch is my primary language.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    A couple more synthetics- Cressanther and Anther. Both from Givaudan (I think). Both sharp green and floral.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Thank you all ! I have a question: when working with synthetics , after mixing them do I have to leave it some days in order to mature as well as when we work with natural essential oils?
    thanks again and sorry for my english

  7. #7

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    I think a few days maturation is good for all fragrances no matter what is in them.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I think a few days maturation is good for all fragrances no matter what is in them.
    ^Agreed.^

    However there isnít any advantage in ageing the dilutions before they are blended - actually I donít see much point in this with most naturals either, but it certainly isnít necessary with synthetics.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Depends what access to chemicals you have. You need PEA, Citronellol and Geraniol. Ionones, and damascones. Then if you can get it a material called Rosalva. Also Rosascene. Can't remember who males these, but they have the metallic note you are after. Green metallic means Triplal, or iso Cyclocitral. That is just for starters, and off my head. No doubt others will suggest more; eh Chris?
    I was going to start a new thread on cyclocitral, but this thread seems to cover it. I'm working from a GC test that calls for beta-cyclocitral (CAS 432-25-7). Nobody seems to be selling it, so would iso-cyclocitral be a suitable replacement? I should also note that this particular fragrance has Triplal, and it is indeed built around a green-metallic rose accord.

  10. #10
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddHuyett View Post
    beta-cyclocitral (CAS 432-25-7). Nobody seems to be selling it,

    Both SAFC and CTC Organics are listed as vendors, have you tried to buy from them?

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Both SAFC and CTC Organics are listed as vendors, have you tried to buy from them?

    PK
    Thanks, Paul. Looks like I'll have to go with one of them if iso-cyclocitral doesn't work. I see that SAFC offers a $40 sample.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Todd, let me see if I can get some for you before you send the $40. Should know on Monday.
    Christine
    www.perfumersupplyhouse.com

  13. #13

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Quote Originally Posted by PerfumerSupplyHouse View Post
    Todd, let me see if I can get some for you before you send the $40. Should know on Monday.
    Christine
    www.perfumersupplyhouse.com
    Thank you. I appreciate that.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    Another material you could consider would be rose oxide, which is in Bulgarian rose otto and, curiously, also in Gewurtztraminer wine, which was what caused me to buy some.
    Hi Chris, funny you should mention Gewutztraminer wine and Rose Oxide, I did a presentation once for flavorists demonstrating the usefulness of Rose Oxide from Bedoukian and had some G wine for all to try, as well as Lychee Fruit, which is another good example of where RO is found.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Green-Metallic Rose Accord with chemicals. How to build it???

    I've been looking into this matter over the last few months, and I still have a lot to learn. I've found that two important factors are the type of rose (Bulgarian, Turkish, etc.) you wish to imitate (since you want to do it with synthetics) and your choice of so-called cyclic aldehydes. Several have been mentioned above, which I'll include here: triplal, trivertal, vertoliff, iso cyclocitral, and beta cyclocitral. The first three appear to belong to the "ivy carbaldehyde" family, and I have not tried trivertal or vertoliff. However, they're all quite green and pungent, and there are many more. Iso cyclocitral is definitely more floral than the others, while triplal smells more like green leaves to me (and some describe it as having bergamot nuances). Beta-cyclocitral is more difficult to describe; it's just a pungent green odor, although it's not quite as powerful as the others on the list. Probably more citrus (lime) than floral. I'm still getting used to describing these odors.

    Regarding the rose issue above, it seems as though Turkish rose is greenest (or am I wrong?), but in order to imitate it, you would need methyl eugenol, which is apparently carcinogenic and therefore banned.

    Oh, and let's not forget the hexyl salicylate!

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