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  1. #1

    Default Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    OK so one of the things I love about Chanel's Cuir de Russie is the epic quality of its ingredients and composition. I mean once smelt so many other leather fragrances suddenly become tawdry and clumsy smelling, to my nose anyway.


    For me Cuir de Russie is my reference Leather fragrance, the pinnacle, it's elegance, complexity, balance and quality really shine. However I keep seeing fellow Basenoters referring to Knize 10 as an alternative, mostly on the basis that Knize 10 is more intense and has better longevity than the modern CdR EdT of the Les Exclusifs range.

    My question (as someone who is unfortunately not familiar with any Knize perfumes) is does Knize 10 have the same quality and elegance as Cuir de Russie as well as being more intense than CdR EdT or is it just stronger?

    Do the two really compare on all levels? And ultimately how does Knize 10 compare to Cuir de Russie Parfum (for those lucky enough to have smelt it).
    Last edited by Hilaire; 25th June 2012 at 02:16 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Well, I think Knize 10 is very unlike Cuir de Russie, although I have to admit that the Les Exclusifs EdT is an iris (no leather) to my nose. The Parfum (no EdP) is sublime, very soft-spoken with below average longevity for a parfum on me. It is just too expensive in my opinion for what it delivers. Knize 10 was very much related to the original Tabac Blond (the latter was loaded with animalics) in its leather note and initial vibe. Knize 10 is rather harsh with a distinctive gasoline note and works much better for me splashed on my chest and neck. If you wanted to experience something closer to Cuir de Russie Parfum, I'd recommend trying Cuir Fetish. In a nutshell, they are all superb leathers!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Oops Parfum is what I meant, I'll correct that :P

    Thanks for your view, I'll definitely give Cuir Fetish a sniff!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Cuir de Russie by Chanel is all class, smmoth and refined. Knize Ten is more blue collar worker with a sledge hammer. Both have there place, but they are completely different scents.
    Five that I am enjoying right now

    1) Sel de Vetiver by The Different Company
    2) Spiritueuse Double Vanille by Guerlain
    3) Bois des Iles by Chanel
    4) Devin by Aramis
    5) Coromandel by Chanel

  5. #5

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by digger51 View Post
    Cuir de Russie by Chanel is all class, smmoth and refined. Knize Ten is more blue collar worker with a sledge hammer. Both have there place, but they are completely different scents.

    I did wonder about this, because the only thing I knew about Knize 10 was that it had a slightly Medallion Man association which I suppose fits the era it was released in, the late seventies. I'm going to see if I can track Knize 10 down, I don't think I've ever seen it for sale here, and give it a sniff and see what I think about it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaire View Post
    I did wonder about this, because the only thing I knew about Knize 10 was that it had a slightly Medallion Man association which I suppose fits the era it was released in, the late seventies. I'm going to see if I can track Knize 10 down, I don't think I've ever seen it for sale here, and give it a sniff and see what I think about it.
    It came out in 1925 actually

  7. #7

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    You need to try Knize 10 Golden Edition. I just received it and love it. Although not identical to CDR it shares a few similarities and lasts longer with good sillage.

    Now that I have the Golden Edition I feel I could handle the original again. Funny how that works.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Hunt View Post
    It came out in 1925 actually

    So it did! How interesting I wonder why I had it in my head it was released in the 70's? Maybe it was just popular back then or something...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    I love Cuir De Russie but to me is more of an iris-centered fragrance with leathery undertones, than a proper leather composition. Knize 10 is surely a butch leather but, at the same time, it has a dandified feel to it. Very elegant, one of a kind. If you're planning to buy it, make sure to get the original and not the Golden Edition which is a polished and civilized version of the former...still pretty darn good though...


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  10. #10

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Both great...too different to be interchangeable.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfarom View Post
    I love Cuir De Russie but to me is more of an iris-centered fragrance with leathery undertones, than a proper leather composition. Knize 10 is surely a butch leather but, at the same time, it has a dandified feel to it. Very elegant, one of a kind. If you're planning to buy it, make sure to get the original and not the Golden Edition which is a polished and civilized version of the former...still pretty darn good though...
    +1 for all of that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by andylama View Post
    Both great...too different to be interchangeable.
    Yes, and both are high quality. I find Knize to actually be more complex - it has floral notes but also some fruity notes and smokiness (what some call gasoline I suppose) that make it more traditionally masculine. Both are stupendous and can be worn by anybody, in my opinion.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Cuir de Russie was a lot smokier and butcher in earlier formulations, which means that it used to be closer to Knize Ten than it is today. But even though they used to be more similar, I don't think they were ever interchangeable. They are both elegant, but CdR is a plush luxe leather while K10 is a stiff utilitarian leather soaked in petrol.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    I disagree with many things said here. Cuir de Russie EDT is very similar to Knize Ten EDT after the mid notes. They really very clearly do have the same base to me.

    Knize Ten is not delicate perhaps, but it is complex and positively excellent.
    My Top Ten:

    1: Guerlain - Habit Rouge
    2: Guerlain - Jicky
    3: Guerlain - Mouchoir de Monsieur
    4: Guerlain - Shalimar
    5: Knize - Knize Ten
    6: Caron - Yatagan
    7: Caron - Pour Un Homme
    8: Jean Desprez - Bal a Versailles
    9: Yves Saint Laurent - M7
    10: Salvador Dali - Dali Pour Homme

  15. #15

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Knize Ten is an alternative to every leather scent, but no leather scent is an alternative to Knize Ten!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trauerkraut View Post
    Knize Ten is an alternative to every leather scent, but no leather scent is an alternative to Knize Ten!
    Bertrand Russell, right?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Further research indicates that Knize have a grand old heritage fitting out the nobility of Austria, Hungary and much of central Europe. Their store looks rather old world swanky. I'm becoming more and more intrigued by them. They don't sell direct via their website unfortunately. I'll go hunting for them elsewhere.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Others have already explained the difference clearly. I would not call Knize Ten utilitarian. It is extremely refined, with flowers and ambers to balance the gasoline tarry leather. To me, it recalls an Austrian aristocrat of the era with a passion for cars and planes, which, at the time, were still reserve for the upper class. So it is still refined and plush, but in a completely different way from CdR. Whether you like it or not, it needs to be smelled.

    The K10 bath products, which I bought blindly, are not as interesting though. The cream smells lightly leather, like the distant drydown, and the shower gel does not smell like the perfume at all.

    As for CdR, in the current range (unfortunately, I have not smelled vintage), note that there is a slight difference between parfum and edt. The parfum is less floral and iris centered, and more smooth-leathery. Whatever similarity there is with K10 drydown, it is more evident in the parfum.

    For another smooth leather (but no substitute for CdR) you can check Etat Libre dOrange Tom of Finland (which has a lemony top note), or, sweeter and ambery, Cuir de Lancome.

    cacio

  19. #19

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by lovingthealien View Post
    Cuir de Russie EDT is very similar to Knize Ten EDT after the mid notes. They really very clearly do have the same base to me.
    Really? I never would have made that connection. I must go home and do a side-by-side comparison.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaire View Post
    Further research indicates that Knize have a grand old heritage fitting out the nobility of Austria, Hungary and much of central Europe. Their store looks rather old world swanky.
    The architect was Adolf Loos, a friend (among others) of Arnold Schönberg who is supposed to have worn Knize Ten. Just listen what the perfume did to his music, from the 1920s onwards...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    The architect was Adolf Loos, a friend (among others) of Arnold Schönberg who is supposed to have worn Knize Ten. Just listen what the perfume did to his music, from the 1920s onwards...

    Superb trivia!

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaire View Post
    Superb trivia!
    Thanks. Just to complete the story and to include Cuir de Russie: Have a look here what Chanel and her perfums did to the music of Igor Stravinksy...


  23. #23

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Oh I love that movie. It's so glumly chic.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    K10 is iso butil quinelone galore. Cuir de Russie isn't. That is the difference. Can't suggest a replacemet: all the Cuirs I smelt belong to my Grandmother and are vintage scents that are unavailable. The ones mentioned before are not distributed locally, so... sorry.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo Lapin X View Post
    Bertrand Russell, right?
    :-)...Trauerkraut, his alter ego...!

  26. #26

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Wasn't this also supposed to James Deans signature scent?

  27. #27

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    OK, so Foustie sent me some samples (thank you so much Foustie!), including some Knize 10 and a bunch of other leathers. So my impression is that anyone who said that Cuir de Russie and Knize 10 are completely different was absolutely correct. I can't imagine anyone thinking that one was a good replacement for the other.

    Knize 10 is very sharp in the opening and woody, smokey, dry and soapy and has this distinct wet cardboard character (not unpleasant) balanced by what smells like Benzoin or Styrax in the base, along with some Iris and Vanilla in the extreme end of the progression which make it very very masculine and very formal smelling to my nose. very old world masculine not in the least biit sweet or soft at all.

    Cuir de Russie is soft, sweet, woody and centres around a powdery Iris/Vanilla/Sandalwood accord almost from the outset with a grey, woody, resinouse Olibanum and Benzoin background keeping it from being gourmand. Still my favourite leather, and probably the most sophisticated leather I can think of, though Knize 10 has it's own kind of austere sophistication.

    They both recreate the smells of totally different kinds of leather. Knize 10's leather if the leather of very good riding boots, and crops. Cuir de Russie's leather is the soft leather of the best made gloves and and suede used in expensive accessories.


    I also tried out a bunch of other leathers I hadn't tried before, Ramon Monegal's mon Cuir and Cuir de Lancome were my favs of the bunch, and Cuir de Lancome was overall the one most similar to Cuir de Russie to my nose.
    Last edited by Hilaire; 6th July 2012 at 07:27 PM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    These two are both "floral leathers" and that is where the comparison stops to me. I really wanted to love the Chanel CdR, but there is just something skanky or animalic that I can't get past (like civet) and I really didn't get much of a leather vibe from it. This is based on the current formulae.

    The best "Cuir de Russie" title goes to Creed imo. It is one of the most realistic renditions of leather that has ever been produced. It's quite tough to source and wears more lightly than I would prefer, so I am hoping my 50ml will last....

    But as long as we are discussing floral leathers here, I highly recommend seeking out a sniff of Lutens Cuir Mauresque. More similar to the Knize than the Chanel, but defunct of the petrol oiliness found in the Knize with just a touch of that Lutens sweet tooth going on. One of the best floral leathers out there period.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by tehtimmeh View Post
    These two are both "floral leathers" and that is where the comparison stops to me. I really wanted to love the Chanel CdR, but there is just something skanky or animalic that I can't get past (like civet) and I really didn't get much of a leather vibe from it. This is based on the current formulae.

    The best "Cuir de Russie" title goes to Creed imo. It is one of the most realistic renditions of leather that has ever been produced. It's quite tough to source and wears more lightly than I would prefer, so I am hoping my 50ml will last....

    But as long as we are discussing floral leathers here, I highly recommend seeking out a sniff of Lutens Cuir Mauresque. More similar to the Knize than the Chanel, but defunct of the petrol oiliness found in the Knize with just a touch of that Lutens sweet tooth going on. One of the best floral leathers out there period.


    I'm not going to comment on the Creed given that I've never smelt it, but I would say that while as a technical achievement recreating the actual smell of leather is impressive I've never thought of it as something I would actually like to smell of. I would also say that the sharper the composition, be that from Citrus oils, or sharper woody or Vetiver notes the less pleasant or wearable I find them, and from what I can tell from research Creed's CdR is exactly that, sharp and strong on the citrus. I'll reserve judgement until I get a whiff of it someday.

    One of the leathers I tested today was Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella's Peau Despagne, now that is an exercise in extreme true-to-life leather. It's not sweet or floral in any way, it smells like the leather of old book bindings or antique leather used as table tops or on writing slopes. There's even a hint of the dusty decay of leather. It's a wonderful scent and one I'm certain many people will love, but it's not something I could ever imagine wanting to wear.

    The point being that in my view a leather's greatness isn't judged by how expertly it recreates the actual smell of real leather (which is only a vaguely pleasant smell at best) but in how it takes the concept of a leather accord and combines it into a composition which is actually attractive. In that respect Chanel's Cuir de Russie is my reference because it has a deep suede-like hum in the background but uses that to build something that smells so much better than a warehouse full of leather sofas or jackets.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Cuir de Russie - a true quality scent.

  31. #31

    Thumbs up Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfarom View Post
    I love Cuir De Russie but to me is more of an iris-centered fragrance with leathery undertones, than a proper leather composition. Knize 10 is surely a butch leather but, at the same time, it has a dandified feel to it. Very elegant, one of a kind. If you're planning to buy it, make sure to get the original and not the Golden Edition which is a polished and civilized version of the former...still pretty darn good though...
    + 1
    Have I told you about the scent of jasmine? Have I spoken about the smell of the sea? The earth is scented. And I perfume myself to enhance what I am. That's why I can not wear a perfume that bothers me. Perfuming is an instinctive wisdom. And like all art, it requires some knowledge of yourself..."
    Clarice Lispector ( 1920-1977) - Perfumes da Terra / Earth
    Perfumes

  32. #32

    Default

    Cuir de Russie is to Knize Ten as a flower is to a brick.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Would it be fair to include Leather Oud by Dior in this thread, I'm just curious about your thoughts and how does it compare to the original scents of this thread Knize Ten's and Chanel's.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan D' Great View Post
    Would it be fair to include Leather Oud by Dior in this thread, I'm just curious about your thoughts and how does it compare to the original scents of this thread Knize Ten's and Chanel's.
    Completely a different planet....basically because Leather Oud completely lacks the florals...


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  35. #35
    Super Member farang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    The original Knize shop in Vienna

    * Serge Lutens rules *
    Fille en Aiguilles & Gris Clair & Fleurs d'Oranger & Tubereuse Criminelle & Sarrasins & Fumerie Turque & A la Nuit & Santal Majuscule & Sa Majeste la Rose & Five O'Clock Au Gingembre

  36. #36
    mihailo
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    ^
    the fragrance smells exaclty the way the store looks

  37. #37

    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    ^^ Symmetrical?

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Knize 10 an alternative to Cuir de Russie... really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilaire View Post
    I'm not going to comment on the Creed given that I've never smelt it, but I would say that while as a technical achievement recreating the actual smell of leather is impressive I've never thought of it as something I would actually like to smell of. I would also say that the sharper the composition, be that from Citrus oils, or sharper woody or Vetiver notes the less pleasant or wearable I find them, and from what I can tell from research Creed's CdR is exactly that, sharp and strong on the citrus. I'll reserve judgement until I get a whiff of it someday.

    One of the leathers I tested today was Farmaceutica di Santa Maria Novella's Peau Despagne, now that is an exercise in extreme true-to-life leather. It's not sweet or floral in any way, it smells like the leather of old book bindings or antique leather used as table tops or on writing slopes. There's even a hint of the dusty decay of leather. It's a wonderful scent and one I'm certain many people will love, but it's not something I could ever imagine wanting to wear.

    The point being that in my view a leather's greatness isn't judged by how expertly it recreates the actual smell of real leather (which is only a vaguely pleasant smell at best) but in how it takes the concept of a leather accord and combines it into a composition which is actually attractive. In that respect Chanel's Cuir de Russie is my reference because it has a deep suede-like hum in the background but uses that to build something that smells so much better than a warehouse full of leather sofas or jackets.
    Have you tried this yet?


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