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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    On the subject of the language of describing perfume, I've said when it has come up before that I think there IS a language, it's just very technical. When you can strip away all the marketing and the emotion, it's just chemicals, and the people who have studied for years know what the chemicals smell like and what they do in mixes. Hence, they are able to speak to each other and collaborate. But, they have to study for years and then apprentice for even longer to become truly fluent.

    I think that's part of what makes this untitled series interesting, is that it takes away notions of "cheap" or "luxury" or "male" or "female" and forces us to try to explain what we smell without just regurgitating what the advertisements told us. I tend to go back to the technical, because I feel like I'm explaining myself better when I say that something smells like ambrox or hedione than I do when I say that something smells like a sphere, but the sphere analogy probably works better in terms of explaining how something smells if the person you're talking to doesn't know the chemicals. It's an interesting quandary.
    I agree completely. Although I would say that the current technical language - chemistry - is a bad language (I say that as a chemist, so there are no hard feelings toward my intellectual wife of many years). Do you remember that Star Trek NG episode where Picard met the race which communicated by metaphor? That language is as touchingly bad as what we, the perfumistas, do. Perfumers, on the other hand, communicate (if I'm right in this analogy) by something akin to idioms and phrases, with some understanding of single words and the crap that is necessary to get them. (I suspect it's entirely analogous to the machinations that people have to do with larger constructs in programming to get smaller nuggets of desiderata.) I think we have to factor the bloody mess and extract the (probably) goofy alphabet. Even if the correlation of the letters to sounds is complex and unwieldy, I think that usable stuff can still be gotten to, once you fully understand the alphabet.

    But the technicality of developing written fragrance-music aside, I think that geometric descriptions and the like have just as much validity in fragrance as they do in music and (more easily, to our senses) visual arts. Curvature, linearity, and other mathematical entities are inherent to existence itself. They are the fallback choices for vocabulary in anything. They are also - very likely - preferable to component-speak for describing some macroscopic features, or commonalities of components which define classes and the like. But can we take them further? I really hope so. Part of that - the empirical part of finding the language - is discovering what works. We need to be extremely honest about things to make that happen. It is certain at the outset that not all aspects of language for other arts translate equally well to olfactory art. Terms like spherical and sinusoidal may make excellent sense for certain sensory phenomena. I would tend to raise an eyebrow at somebody describing a fragrance as rhomboid prismatic, without at least some context. Angular - no problem.
    * * * *

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    OK, and because I'm me, I'm really more comfortable talking technically, so here's my take on what it smelled like:

    First off, a shock of bright chemicals with just a pinch of that 90's peach smell, quickly settling into upfront oranges that are almost exaggeratedly juicy. Sniffing through my Perfumers Apprentice notes kit, I recognized a lot of Hedione, with both its disembodied chemical juiciness and its weird salty iodine heart. In untitled, at least for a moment, I could smell a rich layer of that weird whipped egg white smell of aldehydes, as well as the strangely comforting warm saltiness of calone. The only remotely-natural touchstone is a nondistinct woody smell, sort of like a thin artificial sandalwood thickly shellacked with these bright/eggy/salty chemicals and still quite fully coated with the lasting remnants of the citrus. Unlike everyone else, I'm getting a sense of development from this, mostly a long slow fade in prominence from the hyper-juicy oranges to the thin wood, while that chemical mix just kind of sits there.

    True to what Perfume_Addict said, the dosage has made quite a difference. I liked it best with one spray. The citrus stayed prominent longer. With a heavy application, the exaggerated citrus blew out my nose and all I really smelled was the thin wood and chemicals, but with a couple of off-notes thrown in that I didn't notice in a small dose (most notably a light touch of bile smell and a hint of that caustic-smelling aquatic note that reminds me of ammonia).
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  3. #123
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    OK, and because I'm me, I'm really more comfortable talking technically, so here's my take on what it smelled like:

    First off, a shock of bright chemicals with just a pinch of that 90's peach smell, quickly settling into upfront oranges that are almost exaggeratedly juicy. Sniffing through my Perfumers Apprentice notes kit, I recognized a lot of Hedione, with both its disembodied chemical juiciness and its weird salty iodine heart. In untitled, at least for a moment, I could smell a rich layer of that weird whipped egg white smell of aldehydes, as well as the strangely comforting warm saltiness of calone. The only remotely-natural touchstone is a nondistinct woody smell, sort of like a thin artificial sandalwood thickly shellacked with these bright/eggy/salty chemicals and still quite fully coated with the lasting remnants of the citrus. Unlike everyone else, I'm getting a sense of development from this, mostly a long slow fade in prominence from the hyper-juicy oranges to the thin wood, while that chemical mix just kind of sits there.

    True to what Perfume_Addict said, the dosage has made quite a difference. I liked it best with one spray. The citrus stayed prominent longer. With a heavy application, the exaggerated citrus blew out my nose and all I really smelled was the thin wood and chemicals, but with a couple of off-notes thrown in that I didn't notice in a small dose (most notably a light touch of bile smell and a hint of that caustic-smelling aquatic note that reminds me of ammonia).
    Great description - and especially the fact that you paired up your chemical assignments with the verbal descriptions of the aspects you smelled.

    I do get the fading aspect of it. Technically, it's development. But it's pretty threadbare development - kind of a linear downward fade from not much to nothing at all.

    Sounds like it's not Iso, either, though thin and woody in ways.

    But the million dollar question - do you get the tuning fork thing?
    * * * *

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    But the million dollar question - do you get the tuning fork thing?
    Um, kind of, but it's not a metaphor I necessarily agree with. I can see how that high-pitched chemical mix is a bit of a tone, but I don't visualize it as a tuning fork for two reasons. First, the focus, at least to me, was the unnaturally bright orange. Second, the "ping" was grounded in reality to me, so it felt like it was physical as opposed to a wave (how's that for a weird statement?).

    Another of my strange analogies: Have you ever bought furniture at Ikea? When you get it home and build it, it has a weird smell, some sort of chemical sealants and fire retardants permeating into cheap composite wood, while there's also the smell of metal dust. I see (this untitled scent) as eerie glowing hyper-oranges sitting on a new Ikea table. The focus for me are the oranges and wood, with those smells coming off the table contributing an awful lot, though not enough for me to focus on them. As such, the chemical "ping" isn't the focus to me, and it's not a sound as much as a manmade construct that's hidden in plain sight, realistic more than literal.
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  5. #125

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    @rogalal, you write beautifully and the pic is hilarious!

    As for perfume language, it is still tough one. I get the chemical talk, the perfumers talk and the perfumista talk, all to some extent, still learning.
    But the academical research on even linking language to scent, and the whole olfactory system, is still very young. Funny thing is that I might get the opportunity to play a part in some neuro-psychological research on olfactory pathways. Fascinating stuff!

    A few questions to the ones that smelt this creature: is it Ellena's work? (sounds like his)
    Is the tuning fork maybe just an analogy that describes the linear fade out?
    @SomethingSmelly

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    As an aside, I have at least a preliminary guess what this is. But, for the sake of this conversation, I think the actual guess is much less interesting than how I guessed it.

    It was emotional.

    I didn't smell the untitled perfume and say "this smells like xxxxxxxx". In fact, when I first sprayed it, I actually thought that it wasn't anything I'd smelled before. Instead, after walking around in it, visualizing a sense of fuzzy fluorescent orange (incidentally, I found that picture by googling "bright fuzzy orange"), it occurred to me that only one other perfume I'd ever smelled had that same visual emotion. So, I dug up a sample...

    Years ago, when I first decided to get into scents, I had a torrid infatuation with xxxxxxxxx. On paper at the store, I really loved the topnotes. That citrus that was so artificially jubilant as to be almost ecstatic had a hold on me and I couldn't resist sniffing it any time I could. When I finally got a sample and wore it properly a few times, I was disappointed that the exuberance didn't last very long and that what it dried down to was just sort of chemical. At the time, I was also obsessed with sampling citrus colognes, so I was in the process of learning that citruses should (at least classically speaking) be paired with herbal greens and other traditional cologne notes as opposed to thin chemically-treated wood. So, my crush on xxxxxxxxxx faded quickly and I hadn't really given it much thought until today, when I couldn't shake the idea of friendly fluorescent oranges that I got from untitled and wondered how it compared to my old friend xxxxxxxxxx.

    As for smell, they're certainly very close. They're a bit different, but only as much as the two different version of Mugler Cologne last month, where I remain convinced that most of the differences I perceived were tricks of the nose and loss of topnotes over time than actual formulaic differences.

    Anyway, for anyone who actually cares, my guess, also in morse code thanks to the magic of google:

    .... .- .--. .--. -.-- ..-. --- .-. -- . -.

    There are things Chandler has said that leads me to believe that this is probably wrong, but it's very close in terms of both smell and emotional response.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    A few questions to the ones that smelt this creature: is it Ellena's work? (sounds like his)
    Is the tuning fork maybe just an analogy that describes the linear fade out?
    As for Ellena, of course I have no idea, but I doubt it. Ellena has a very small palate that he has tightly honed over years of work. His orange always smells like his orange, whether it's Declaration, TDH, Bigarade Concentree, or Voyage d'Hermes. And this doesn't smell like his orange.

    As for the tuning fork analogy simply being a metaphor for a linear fade out, that seems like a strange aspect to focus on, especially when it's so common. If that is it, it could be an attempt to get us to see as art something that we snobs often see as "cheap", a scent that fades quickly without morphing into distinct basenotes.

    I suppose we won't know until more people smell it and put in their two cents...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Going back to the language of perfumes, this reminds me a lot of my work.

    In real life, I'm a sound engineer. Most of the people who hire me to polish and perfect their songs don't know all the technical terms. They'll say that the want something to sound "fatter" or "more metallic", which certainly aren't official, scientific terms. While other studio geeks will talk about compression ratios or milliseconds of delay, which are technically correct terms. So there's the official language of correct terms and an unofficial set of words that sort of convey what someone means, but are technically meaningless.

    But, all things considered, enough people say that they want their song to sound "brighter" or "wider" that most of us engineers know what they mean, so it's almost a second language that's less effective and not specific, but that still expresses the basic concepts.

    I think this may be a good analogy for perfume speak. As Irena said, there's perfumer talk (which I assume is a bunch of specifics about ingredient ratios and such) and perfumista talk (terms like "brightness" and "high-pitched" which are scientifically meaningless but whose definitions are at least mostly agreed upon enough that we can understand each other).

    So, do we need more terms that are technically meaningless but that we all agree on (like "mineralic" or "mulchy") or would we be better off getting to know our ingredients? I suppose that's the sort of thing a culture decides over time without really thinking about, honestly.

    Apropos of nothing, but in terms of missing language, I really wish someone somewhere would come up with terms for the three vastly different types of aquatics. There's the salty herbal kind, the cucumber/melon kind, and the metallic lavender Windex-smelling kind, and it kills me that these vastly different genres of perfume are all called the same thing...
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  7. #127

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    As Irena said, there's perfumer talk (which I assume is a bunch of specifics about ingredient ratios and such) and perfumista talk (terms like "brightness" and "high-pitched" which are scientifically meaningless but whose definitions are at least mostly agreed upon enough that we can understand each other).

    So, do we need more terms that are technically meaningless but that we all agree on (like "mineralic" or "mulchy") or would we be better off getting to know our ingredients? I suppose that's the sort of thing a culture decides over time without really thinking about, honestly.

    Apropos of nothing, but in terms of missing language, I really wish someone somewhere would come up with terms for the three vastly different types of aquatics. There's the salty herbal kind, the cucumber/melon kind, and the metallic lavender Windex-smelling kind, and it kills me that these vastly different genres of perfume are all called the same thing...
    The perfumers talk and perfumista talk is not so different. Most perfumers I know and in my perfumers training speak in 'olfactory', 'organoleptic' or 'odor profile' terms like: 'fresh', 'green', 'herbal', 'metalic', 'rosy' but also refer to specific ingredients like 'aldehydic' or 'indolic'. Other jargon tend more to technicalities that involve the chemical or psychical properties like 'diffusive' or 'ketone' or even simply 'big molecule'.

    Then you have the commercial briefs that often involve a mixture of perfumista talk and comparative and marketing talk like 'bright like Happy, fruity like Paris Hilton and with a powdery vintage drydown'. Or if it involves functional fragrance like a shampoo: 'scent must cling to hair and still be smelt after drying'. Or worse: 'something citrus-like for $1 a kilo'.

    As for the aquatics you mention, I would call salty herbal =aquatic fougere, cucumber/melon = 'calone-ic', windex = 'oxirane'.

    I remember a BN project (back when I was a fairly new member) that comprised of sending sniffing samples of different kind of fragrance materials to each other and describe them? 'Note project' or something like that? It was fun!

    ETA, here is the link to that project
    http://www.basenotes.net/forums/107-...te-Exploration
    @SomethingSmelly

  8. #128

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    The way I interpreted the comment about a language for scent was common language. I don't think that would be the technical language whether your're talking about perfume or sound.

    I have always delighted in Luca Turin's scent descriptions as none others because he tends to describe scent through analogy, i.e. Talisman: "It triumphs where so many others failed, by associating fruity and candied notes over a base of honey and beeswax derived from masculine fragrances. The result has a disarming charm, that of the festival of July 14 at a village where the big attraction is a guest star with a fake English name 'and Her Orchestra', where where children who ought to go to bed soon run around under trees garlanded with Chinese lanterns. Where does this association come from? You can seek a long time without understanding and then one day it hits you. Talisman smells exactly like one of these small stores of the south of France where ripe fruit sits next to obscurely scented soaps, and whose perfume, halfway between appetizing and inedible, summarizes the holidays so well.. "

    People who have vast, detailed scent memories apart from perfumes and can recall the memories at will are terrific at describing fragrances.
    Last edited by Perfume_Addict; 24th August 2012 at 11:59 PM.

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Lucy: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?
    Linus: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.
    Lucy: Uh huh. That's very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?
    Charlie Brown: Well... I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by ROtto View Post
    Lucy: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?
    Linus: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.
    Lucy: Uh huh. That's very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?
    Charlie Brown: Well... I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.
    So what are you saying, you think Luca Linus was a little full of himself
    Last edited by Perfume_Addict; 24th August 2012 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    I'll want to wear this again but for now, let me just say, I applied ONE spray of this to my arm 26 hours ago and I can still smell it. A skin scent, of course, but it's still there.



  12. #132
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    Um, kind of, but it's not a metaphor I necessarily agree with. I can see how that high-pitched chemical mix is a bit of a tone, but I don't visualize it as a tuning fork for two reasons. First, the focus, at least to me, was the unnaturally bright orange. Second, the "ping" was grounded in reality to me, so it felt like it was physical as opposed to a wave (how's that for a weird statement?).
    Not weird at all - this was precisely what I was thinking might happen. If you know too much about the mechanical nature and construction of something, they become part of the story. The recognized medium becomes part of the message. The unfamiliar person can see only the form, and not the details of construction, which remain a mystery. The expert has to factor the construction out of their mind to see only the form.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    Another of my strange analogies: Have you ever bought furniture at Ikea? When you get it home and build it, it has a weird smell, some sort of chemical sealants and fire retardants permeating into cheap composite wood, while there's also the smell of metal dust. I see (this untitled scent) as eerie glowing hyper-oranges sitting on a new Ikea table. The focus for me are the oranges and wood, with those smells coming off the table contributing an awful lot, though not enough for me to focus on them. As such, the chemical "ping" isn't the focus to me, and it's not a sound as much as a manmade construct that's hidden in plain sight, realistic more than literal.
    Very cool. If I can say this with just a touch of humor and metaphor, I see the hyper-oranges at first, but I uncross my nasal eyes, and defocus on the hyper-oranges themselves, and then I can refocus on their sphericality and their sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    @rogalal, you write beautifully and the pic is hilarious!
    I agree. Even more than that, his nose is helping mine tremendously. I should be paying him to let me send him samples!

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    As for perfume language, it is still tough one. I get the chemical talk, the perfumers talk and the perfumista talk, all to some extent, still learning.
    But the academical research on even linking language to scent, and the whole olfactory system, is still very young. Funny thing is that I might get the opportunity to play a part in some neuro-psychological research on olfactory pathways. Fascinating stuff!
    Very cool!

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    A few questions to the ones that smelt this creature: is it Ellena's work? (sounds like his)
    I get the feeling that people would have been talking about this one a lot more if it were his. It would have pushed his boundaries in a way I would not have anticipated. So I am guessing no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    Is the tuning fork maybe just an analogy that describes the linear fade out?
    I never thought of that aspect. I suppose that it's true as well, but for me, that's not what makes it a tuning fork.

    The tuning fork has the curious property of creating a buzz that is hard to attribute to any particular medium. Fingers on the rim of a glass, a buzzing reed, and some other things have the same quality. Moreover, it only fades out very slowly. If you look at the decline tangentially, it's basically flat, continuous, and unchanging. That's the tuning fork to me. The fade-out of this stuff is so slow, that it is very easy to see it as having a continuous and unchanging buzz.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    As an aside, I have at least a preliminary guess what this is. But, for the sake of this conversation, I think the actual guess is much less interesting than how I guessed it.

    It was emotional.

    I didn't smell the untitled perfume and say "this smells like xxxxxxxx". In fact, when I first sprayed it, I actually thought that it wasn't anything I'd smelled before. Instead, after walking around in it, visualizing a sense of fuzzy fluorescent orange (incidentally, I found that picture by googling "bright fuzzy orange"), it occurred to me that only one other perfume I'd ever smelled had that same visual emotion. So, I dug up a sample...

    Years ago, when I first decided to get into scents, I had a torrid infatuation with xxxxxxxxx. On paper at the store, I really loved the topnotes. That citrus that was so artificially jubilant as to be almost ecstatic had a hold on me and I couldn't resist sniffing it any time I could. When I finally got a sample and wore it properly a few times, I was disappointed that the exuberance didn't last very long and that what it dried down to was just sort of chemical. At the time, I was also obsessed with sampling citrus colognes, so I was in the process of learning that citruses should (at least classically speaking) be paired with herbal greens and other traditional cologne notes as opposed to thin chemically-treated wood. So, my crush on xxxxxxxxxx faded quickly and I hadn't really given it much thought until today, when I couldn't shake the idea of friendly fluorescent oranges that I got from untitled and wondered how it compared to my old friend xxxxxxxxxx.

    As for smell, they're certainly very close. They're a bit different, but only as much as the two different version of Mugler Cologne last month, where I remain convinced that most of the differences I perceived were tricks of the nose and loss of topnotes over time than actual formulaic differences.

    Anyway, for anyone who actually cares, my guess, also in morse code thanks to the magic of google:

    .... .- .--. .--. -.-- ..-. --- .-. -- . -.

    There are things Chandler has said that leads me to believe that this is probably wrong, but it's very close in terms of both smell and emotional response.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Very neat. I'm resisting looking at your guess as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    As for Ellena, of course I have no idea, but I doubt it. Ellena has a very small palate that he has tightly honed over years of work. His orange always smells like his orange, whether it's Declaration, TDH, Bigarade Concentree, or Voyage d'Hermes. And this doesn't smell like his orange.
    Great point! It really doesn't seem like his orange. His orange has a certain confidence, though not boisterous (TdH haters may disagree, but I still think so). This is like orange which is desperately trying to hide itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    As for the tuning fork analogy simply being a metaphor for a linear fade out, that seems like a strange aspect to focus on, especially when it's so common. If that is it, it could be an attempt to get us to see as art something that we snobs often see as "cheap", a scent that fades quickly without morphing into distinct basenotes.

    I suppose we won't know until more people smell it and put in their two cents...
    Interestingly, I think that one could talk about the relatively rapid fade-out of the easily observable orange as being a quickly dampened tuning fork. But I really think it's the buzz after that which he is after.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    Going back to the language of perfumes, this reminds me a lot of my work.

    In real life, I'm a sound engineer. Most of the people who hire me to polish and perfect their songs don't know all the technical terms. They'll say that the want something to sound "fatter" or "more metallic", which certainly aren't official, scientific terms. While other studio geeks will talk about compression ratios or milliseconds of delay, which are technically correct terms. So there's the official language of correct terms and an unofficial set of words that sort of convey what someone means, but are technically meaningless.

    But, all things considered, enough people say that they want their song to sound "brighter" or "wider" that most of us engineers know what they mean, so it's almost a second language that's less effective and not specific, but that still expresses the basic concepts.

    I think this may be a good analogy for perfume speak. As Irena said, there's perfumer talk (which I assume is a bunch of specifics about ingredient ratios and such) and perfumista talk (terms like "brightness" and "high-pitched" which are scientifically meaningless but whose definitions are at least mostly agreed upon enough that we can understand each other).

    So, do we need more terms that are technically meaningless but that we all agree on (like "mineralic" or "mulchy") or would we be better off getting to know our ingredients? I suppose that's the sort of thing a culture decides over time without really thinking about, honestly.

    Apropos of nothing, but in terms of missing language, I really wish someone somewhere would come up with terms for the three vastly different types of aquatics. There's the salty herbal kind, the cucumber/melon kind, and the metallic lavender Windex-smelling kind, and it kills me that these vastly different genres of perfume are all called the same thing...
    Great points. I think your analysis of the practical usability of even semi-dubious terms shows that commonality counts for quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    The perfumers talk and perfumista talk is not so different. Most perfumers I know and in my perfumers training speak in 'olfactory', 'organoleptic' or 'odor profile' terms like: 'fresh', 'green', 'herbal', 'metalic', 'rosy' but also refer to specific ingredients like 'aldehydic' or 'indolic'. Other jargon tend more to technicalities that involve the chemical or psychical properties like 'diffusive' or 'ketone' or even simply 'big molecule'.

    Then you have the commercial briefs that often involve a mixture of perfumista talk and comparative and marketing talk like 'bright like Happy, fruity like Paris Hilton and with a powdery vintage drydown'. Or if it involves functional fragrance like a shampoo: 'scent must cling to hair and still be smelt after drying'. Or worse: 'something citrus-like for $1 a kilo'.

    As for the aquatics you mention, I would call salty herbal =aquatic fougere, cucumber/melon = 'calone-ic', windex = 'oxirane'.

    I remember a BN project (back when I was a fairly new member) that comprised of sending sniffing samples of different kind of fragrance materials to each other and describe them? 'Note project' or something like that? It was fun!

    ETA, here is the link to that project
    http://www.basenotes.net/forums/107-...te-Exploration
    Very interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    The way I interpreted the comment about a language for scent was common language. I don't think that would be the technical language whether your're talking about perfume or sound.
    Agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    People who have vast, detailed scent memories apart from perfumes and can recall the memories at will are terrific at describing fragrances.
    Absolutely. Sometimes these metaphors seem very expensive to set up, but the power and precision of the final image is often startling.

    Quote Originally Posted by ROtto View Post
    Lucy: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?
    Linus: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.
    Lucy: Uh huh. That's very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?
    Charlie Brown: Well... I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.
    LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    So what are you saying, you think Luca Linus was a little full of himself
    Well, after a Basenotes Makeover, I'm sure we could have Charlie Brown describing the landing ducks and charging horses in language so florid that Linus Luca himself would run away with his map over his head!

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    I'll want to wear this again but for now, let me just say, I applied ONE spray of this to my arm 26 hours ago and I can still smell it. A skin scent, of course, but it's still there.
    Yes, this thing has legs. And one of the best ways to get the tuning fork thing is to smell the spray-head of the bottle (which, in your case, would translate to sniffing the top of the vial) after you've been testing this a while, and base has built up on the exterior. The perfumers clearly engineered that tonal quality to persist as long as possible.
    * * * *

  13. #133

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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Ok I have to walk back my words a bit. In my earlier post I said I thought Chandler's verbal packaging was way off. After actually wearing E03 for a couple of days I actually am closer in alignment than I thought.

    If I'm going to use an analogy I see it like a fine crystal red wine glass; shiny, round, and when you flick it with a finger it gives off a sonorous tone that resonates.

    The citrus is the star here and it is what simultaneously gives the hard shell and the brightness to this. The tonal quality comes in the heart of this as there is an accord which buzzes at a low frequency with tobacco at its core. For the first time in this series it is not a fragrance I wear often and it is also why this time I am enjoying the experience more. Since it is not immediately recognizable I am spending time immersed in its qualities. This is a fragrance which definitely rewards this kind of study. I am particularly enjoying riding the buzz I feel in the middle part of E03's development.

    To whomever suggested this could be an Ellena the early going is very reminiscent of one he did before Hermes but I don't believe it is that one because I remember the rest of that fragrance very differently.

    As of right now I am just enjoying observing my metaphorical wine glass swirling and pinging.
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  14. #134

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    Anyway, for anyone who actually cares, my guess, also in morse code thanks to the magic of google:

    .... .- .--. .--. -.-- ..-. --- .-. -- . -.
    I decoded it and you surprised me quite a bit.
    I'm not testing it but if Chandler Burr is talking about xxxxxxxxxx like that... wow.
    Plus I think he said it's niche so it can't be that.
    Last edited by Suppressor; 25th August 2012 at 02:53 AM.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville Metro Man View Post
    If I'm going to use an analogy I see it like a fine crystal red wine glass; shiny, round, and when you flick it with a finger it gives off a sonorous tone that resonates...As of right now I am just enjoying observing my metaphorical wine glass swirling and pinging.
    I'll take your analogy and run with it. Its a cocktail party in which guests are served Grand Marnier Fuzzy Navels, and then walk around the wood paneled library the rest of the evening playing with the empty snifter.
    Last edited by Perfume_Addict; 25th August 2012 at 03:27 AM.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    I decoded it and you surprised me quite a bit.
    I'm not testing it but if Chandler Burr is talking about xxxxxxxxxx like that... wow.
    Plus I think he said it's niche so it can't be that.
    Yeah, that's why I said that things he said about it make me think I must be wrong. But if that's not what it is, they're really close...

    Honestly, after reading this thread closley but not sniffing it, I assumed it would be either an Ellena like this or this. Or, if not that, one of the benchmark avante garde citrus-topped scents like this or this. But it's not, as far as I can tell. It's a whole different vibe, less Ellena, less avante garde and more "perfumey" chemicals.
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    Smile Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Okey Dokey, I just recieved my sample today.

    I've made a mindful point to not look at anything that's been written about it since people first received it. I'll post my impressions, and if they don't match the current consensus....well heck : emotional impressions are not supposed to be about consensus.

    So.... here goes :

    ...

    To my nose, this scent is nothing I would feel right calling unisex : it feels fully feminine to me.

    It does not have an overtly flirtatious feel but it certainly has heart. I picture an accomplished, worldly and mature woman with a history of successful and satisfying loves. Loves which may now be in the past, but which do not leave her without confidence in herself or her current place in the world.

    The fragrance opens with feelings of brightness it's true, but then transitions, like the telling of a story or the living of a life, into something quite different. Once the brightness passes, a distinct feeling of melancholy evolves, like the feelings a person gets at the first hints of Fall after one has only just begun to embrace Summer.

    Is the wearer a widow? If so, she is a reflective one, with a position in the present and a steady sense of the future, but not without a touch of regret over the passing of things that once were.

    ....

    OK then.

    To my mind this is no girly kind of frag, and despite it's citrusy opening, it does not feel the least bit jolly. Nor would I wear it anywhere except around myself. Quality juice, and in contrast to the first two, something that's not afraid to project a little. Our weather here just took that first semi-unsettling turn toward coolness, and that may have effected my sense of it I'll admit. At this point in time, it seems like the respectful choice for a mature yet worldly woman to wear to a funeral.

    Now that I've put all that on the line ( oh foolish me !) time to see what everyone else has said.

    And Morse code : I've known how to read it since I was 10.

    .
    Last edited by Birdboy48; 25th August 2012 at 03:54 AM.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Ooh-ooh-ooooh! (waiving hand a la Horshack, RIP Ron Padillo)

    Does anyone smell a similarity to
    . .- ..- -.. . ... -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... , but with the pyramid right-side-up instead of up-side-down? I don't own this, but have . .-.. .. -..- .. .-. -.. . ... -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... , which is much sweeter. But S01E03 is really ringing the -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... bell in my memory.

    If I'm right, this was a great choice for an Untitled edition - I'm glad I had the chance to rediscover this.
    Last edited by Perfume_Addict; 25th August 2012 at 04:12 AM. Reason: removed spoiler

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    I'll want to wear this again but for now, let me just say, I applied ONE spray of this to my arm 26 hours ago and I can still smell it. A skin scent, of course, but it's still there.
    Yeah, I should clarify that 30 Roses is right and I was very wrong when I said this faded quickly. After 2 showers, I could still clearly smell a sort of sweet pleasant ammonia mixed with wood on my arm where I had sprayed the large amount.

    In music production, when you have a short, sharp noise followed by a long reverberation, we call that having a "long tail". Untitled has a very long tail.

    And just like that, I may have talked myself into acceptance of the tuning fork analogy...
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville Metro Man View Post
    If I'm going to use an analogy I see it like a fine crystal red wine glass; shiny, round, and when you flick it with a finger it gives off a sonorous tone that resonates.

    <snip>

    As of right now I am just enjoying observing my metaphorical wine glass swirling and pinging.
    Great to see you comment, Mark, and I totally agree. So much so, that I made a little demo of 4 different sizes and types of crystal wine glasses (or at least what I use for wine!)



    Click to hear: http://soundcloud.com/neil-sternberg...l-glasses-demo

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdboy48 View Post
    Okey Dokey, I just recieved my sample today.

    I've made a mindful point to not look at anything that's been written about it since people first received it. I'll post my impressions, and if they don't match the current consensus....well heck : emotional impressions are not supposed to be about consensus.

    So.... here goes :

    ...

    To my nose, this scent is nothing I would feel right calling unisex : it feels fully feminine to me.

    It does not have an overtly flirtatious feel but it certainly has heart. I picture an accomplished, worldly and mature woman with a history of successful and satisfying loves. Loves which may now be in the past, but which do not leave her without confidence in herself or her current place in the world.

    The fragrance opens with feelings of brightness it's true, but then transitions, like the telling of a story or the living of a life, into something quite different. Once the brightness passes, a distinct feeling of melancholy evolves, like the feelings a person gets at the first hints of Fall after one has only just begun to embrace Summer.

    Is the wearer a widow? If so, she is a reflective one, with a position in the present and a steady sense of the future, but not without a touch of regret over the passing of things that once were.

    ....

    OK then.

    To my mind this is no girly kind of frag, and despite it's citrusy opening, it does not feel the least bit jolly. Nor would I wear it anywhere except around myself. Quality juice, and in contrast to the first two, something that's not afraid to project a little. Our weather here just took that first semi-unsettling turn toward coolness, and that may have effected my sense of it I'll admit. At this point in time, it seems like the respectful choice for a mature yet worldly woman to wear to a funeral.

    Now that I've put all that on the line ( oh foolish me !) time to see what everyone else has said.

    And Morse code : I've known how to read it since I was 10.

    .
    Honestly, when I read your description, it really fit the kind of woman I had imagined wearing this scent. I imagined something along the lines of....

    California widow of means and class - somewhat older than me - who was once married to somebody important. Travels happily and without fanfare, perhaps quietly waiting to join her husband, but she doesn't like to talk about religion, so nobody really knows. Doesn't need to speak - when anybody treats her in an undignified or disrespectful way, she can use a perfectly executed silence to get both an apology and remediation. Wise enough to know that she could use her money to insulate herself from such maltreatment, but sufficiently in love with the world not to do so. You might suspect all of this, seeing her on the park bench, or walking along the beach, but you would never know for sure. Still - in her own way - mysterious.
    * * * *

  21. #141

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    California widow of means and class - somewhat older than me - who was once married to somebody important. Travels happily and without fanfare, perhaps quietly waiting to join her husband...
    I don't think the woman wearing this would be quietly waiting. Its a pretty assertive fragrance.

  22. #142
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    I think it's fascinating that you guys all imagine this on a woman!

    If I had to try to fit Untitled into a traditional classification, I'd consider it a citrus aquatic (chemically-enhanced citrus morphing into a salty chemical stew with vaguely woody undertones). As such, I've been imagining it alongside scents like Erolfa or Aventus or even Bulgari Aqua pour Homme, fairly confidently on the masculine side of things.

    He he - that's all part of the mystery!
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  23. #143
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    I don't think the woman wearing this would be quietly waiting. Its a pretty assertive fragrance.
    LOL!

    I don't know - I guess it just seems different to us in that respect. Compared to the sort of things I wear that people notice, it really seems very subdued. It's actually quieter (to my nose) than a lot of my office scents, which are designed not to get too much notice. Persistent, yes. Penetrating, yes. But I just find it fairly quiet - or perhaps at most, whispering loudly. Humming. Buzzing. But just not that loudly.

    Only one time has anybody noticed it. I put it on my hand - big impressive spray - and when it opened up fully, about 5 or 10 minutes later, my wife noticed it, sitting right next to me. But that's it. I would actually put it at something like 3/10 for projection (to sound like a YouTube reviewer).

    Your sillage may vary, to borrow the phrase!

    However, with your word of caution, I'll be careful with the stuff. Clearly, some people smell it more strongly than I do!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogalal View Post
    I think it's fascinating that you guys all imagine this on a woman!

    If I had to try to fit Untitled into a traditional classification, I'd consider it a citrus aquatic (chemically-enhanced citrus morphing into a salty chemical stew with vaguely woody undertones). As such, I've been imagining it alongside scents like Erolfa or Aventus or even Bulgari Aqua pour Homme, fairly confidently on the masculine side of things.

    He he - that's all part of the mystery!
    Interesting. I think it must be the "tonal" thing. As I said before, it's a bit like a chypre ghost note to me, and that note has always struck me as feminine. If I was experiencing it more like a pure citrus, I would probably be getting more in the way of unisex imagery. But this does smell slightly "feminine" to me.
    * * * *

  24. #144
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    However, with your word of caution, I'll be careful with the stuff. Clearly, some people smell it more strongly than I do!
    This fragrance does have a dog whistle aspect to it. There seems to be a large-molecule aromachemical in this that you can sort-of smell, but mostly seems to hover just above perceptibility, more like a glow than a smell.

  25. #145

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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    Ooh-ooh-ooooh! (waiving hand a la Horshack, RIP Ron Padillo)

    Does anyone smell a similarity to
    . .- ..- -.. . ... -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... , but with the pyramid right-side-up instead of up-side-down? I don't own this, but have . .-.. .. -..- .. .-. -.. . ... -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... , which is much sweeter. But S01E03 is really ringing the -- . .-. ...- . .. .-.. .-.. . ... bell in my memory.

    If I'm right, this was a great choice for an Untitled edition - I'm glad I had the chance to rediscover this.
    I also get the same kind of vibe from E03 but without doing a direct comparison which I have tried not to do I don't think E03 is one of those. This was my guess what we were going to get from Chandler's verbal packaging prior to actually receiving E03 and I'm pretty sure it isn't this.

    For the first time in this project I really don't have a particularly strong feeling about what E03 is; instead I am spending time with it trying to see what the curator sees with it. That is allowing me to have a purer experience than I did with E01 and E02.
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  26. #146

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville Metro Man View Post
    I am spending time with it trying to see what the curator sees with it. That is allowing me to have a purer experience than I did with E01 and E02.
    I will be surprised if its not the first fragrance I listed above, but I did spend six days with it before making that connection. It fits the basic information we know (or suspect) about the scent: two perfumers, Jean Claude Ellena connection, matches most of the notes I smell.

    I'm glad I had that time to explore without the influence of reviews. Assuming I'm right, what I experienced is rather different than the predominant reviewer opinions, which focus on the marine aspects of the scent, while I don't experience it as marine, but more as wood and plant material after the citrus peel top note.

    Sadly, I wonder if I may be becoming anosmic to the citrus. When I sprayed it on my hand last night my nose went straight to the basenote, not percieving the citrus peel that I noticed in the first several wearings. I'll respray sometime today to see if I can detect it again.

  27. #147

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville Metro Man View Post
    instead I am spending time with it trying to see what the curator sees with it. That is allowing me to have a purer experience than I did with E01 and E02.
    I hope I do too, that is my goal anyways if my decant gets here in time before the reveal. @Heperd did tell me that is was a very expensive niche, so I do hope I'll come to appreciate it.

    Mostly I do wonder about the 'smart', 'humming' and 'scholar' aspects. It has been probably chosen by Burr because is a good example of particular perfume school or movement. Just like with any art, I do love to study 'artistic movements'.

    And Red, your posts always make me smile, thank you for the 'concert ' I particularly thought the sound of glass no 3 was the best description of what I imagine the radiating 'humming/buzzing' would sound like
    @SomethingSmelly

  28. #148
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Rogalal wrote :

    Also, no one is describing their emotional reactions, which everyone tried so hard to do last time... Thoughts??

    Red wrote:

    You're right about the emotional stuff. Not as much here. Why? VERY interesting question.
    I wrote about this earlier, I think, but as someone who spends a fair amount of time each day working with people who have mental health issues, and also trying to explain the complexities of these issues to their loved ones...well, when it comes to the matter of emotions and feelings, and our ability and willingness to connect with and express them, it's always an area of interest for me.

    I've certainly noticed the same thing : Although Chandler has been drumming away at this from the beginning, and the theme of the project seems to center on it, people do seem very reluctant to express the emotional vibe/story that they feel coming from these various samples.

    In contrast, this emotional story-telling aspect seems exactly what the fume promoters concentrate on in their ad campaigns. They strive to project the most appealing emotional vibe. Whether or not that vibe jibes with what the thing smells like once we get it in our hands is another story, but there's no doubt that their campaigns strive to set forward the very thing that so many of us here seem to shy away from.

    People are comfortable ferreting out the notes ( the types of things that people who care for each other are able to agree on ) and perhaps that's some of it : That as a community (which is what we are here) we strive to strengthen our connection through consensus-building and discovering things we can mutually agree on.

    But given the individualistic nature of emotional reactions, perhaps we worry that our emotions will be so different from those of the others that they might serve to erode that sense of shared community ?

    Ad to that the fact that...were we to see a picture or painting, and asked to describe our feelings...well, we'd all have the very same visuals to go on. We'd have confidence that all in our group would be at least be starting from a concrete shared set-point. Whereas with smell, that initial set-point is considerably more ephemeral and ambiguous. If we hope to preserve community, that sort of initial ambiguity provides a pretty tenuous starting point.

    From another angle, when it comes to the expression of emotions, people in our western culture may feel that in some sense it's socially unseemly to be giving away so much of our inner selves. The whole "too much information" thing.

    There's an interesting term in psychology : Alexithymia. From the Greek "A" = without. "Lexis" = words or language. "Thymia" = feelings.

    I don't think that's what we have here; it may relate more to the preservation of community theme, or the TMI thing.

    But it is interesting how we shy away from the very thing that the fume-pushers spend millions trying to cultivate.


    Dang, now that I've absorbed what everyone else has said about this juice, and dusted off my Morse code, perhaps it's time to give it a second wear.
    Last edited by Birdboy48; 25th August 2012 at 04:07 PM.

  29. #149
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    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by ROtto View Post
    This fragrance does have a dog whistle aspect to it. There seems to be a large-molecule aromachemical in this that you can sort-of smell, but mostly seems to hover just above perceptibility, more like a glow than a smell.
    It really does. I'm thinking that there has to be some amazing nugget of understanding of olfaction buried in this kind of phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville Metro Man View Post
    For the first time in this project I really don't have a particularly strong feeling about what E03 is; instead I am spending time with it trying to see what the curator sees with it. That is allowing me to have a purer experience than I did with E01 and E02.
    TOTALLY agreed. I'm really glad that this is happening. However, it makes me almost want to revisit the first two fragrances, somehow, to see if there is similar understanding possible. Perhaps for E01, but for E02, I would say we got hooched, and without solid juice, it was just a disconnect. Note to future projects: focus groups, even if it's just 5 people in the museum. My new mantra: fragrance is statistical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    I will be surprised if its not the first fragrance I listed above, but I did spend six days with it before making that connection. It fits the basic information we know (or suspect) about the scent: two perfumers, Jean Claude Ellena connection, matches most of the notes I smell.
    I may browse for an ID at this point. What you say sounds very interesting. I feel like I've gotten what I want from the "untitled" part of the process for this scent. And I do think I'll try to repeat that for future scents. If I'm not sure what it is, then I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    I'm glad I had that time to explore without the influence of reviews. Assuming I'm right, what I experienced is rather different than the predominant reviewer opinions, which focus on the marine aspects of the scent, while I don't experience it as marine, but more as wood and plant material after the citrus peel top note.
    That's really interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    Sadly, I wonder if I may be becoming anosmic to the citrus. When I sprayed it on my hand last night my nose went straight to the basenote, not percieving the citrus peel that I noticed in the first several wearings. I'll respray sometime today to see if I can detect it again.
    I've been speculating that maybe the intent was actually for the citrus to be as unnoticed as possible. Perhaps you were actually a bit lucky in getting it as strongly as you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    And Red, your posts always make me smile, thank you for the 'concert ' I particularly thought the sound of glass no 3 was the best description of what I imagine the radiating 'humming/buzzing' would sound like
    Thanks! And that would be the taller, more conical glass. Which does have a very nice tinkle, and which always seems to get a smile from our guests when we pour!
    * * * *

  30. #150

    Default Re: Chandler Burr Untitled S01E03

    Quote Originally Posted by Perfume_Addict View Post
    Sadly, I wonder if I may be becoming anosmic to the citrus. When I sprayed it on my hand last night my nose went straight to the basenote, not percieving the citrus peel that I noticed in the first several wearings. I'll respray sometime today to see if I can detect it again.
    Citrus is back this morning. My nose must have been tired last night.

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