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  1. #1

    Talking The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    This is my first post, I used to be a serial stalker (as others put it).
    I am raising what seems to be a common topic but adding a few specifics that have not been previously covered. I am in search of the 'perfect' solution, if it exists.

    The following assumes I am making a
    50ml bottle of perfume spray (atomiser) that will be applied to skin.
    Using 2ml of essential oils and the rest alcohol with a preservative added at the end.

    Making perfume with Alcohol

    Many people have tried and tested the idea of an alcohol free perfume and gone back to alcohol for it's ease of use. Yet alcohol based perfumes present us (especially myself who already suffers from allergies) with some ethical dilemmas. This is mainly caused by what is added to alcohol products we buy, such as denatured alcohol/ethanol. Which is effectively poisoned (denatured) so that it avoids alcohol taxation and in some countries 'it's allowable use' for general things (i.e. aromatherapy). The additive chemicals can be anything from a carcinogenic compound to an industrial petroleum based product. What concerns me is that; now I know what's in these 'denatured' mixes and having researched their effects on lungs, skin and organs. I wouldn't want to spray them on myself or sell them and be liable for the consequences.

    If I was to make an alcohol based perfume that I feel is safe, then it seems a Russian or Polish Rectified Vodka is the safest solution for a small business/hobbyist. However, it's highly taxed here in the UK and as of such, is overpriced (when compared to denatured ethanol).

    Which brings me to my first 3 questions to this community:
    1. Is there a denatured alcohol/ethanol that you feel is truly safe for the skin, if so I'd love to hear of it, with links?
    (truly safe would not contain methanol, Diethyl phthalate, acetone, Dipropylene Glycol Methyl Ether).
    2. Has no one got around the denatured alcohol justification rules by just adding Tea tree or citronella to ethanol. i.e. making it undrinkable and as a result can call it denatured without adding poisonous additives?
    3. Spirytus Rektyfikowany (rectified spirit) can be found here for 50/litre:
    http://www.ampmdirect.co.uk/spirytus...y-95-50cl.html
    Is this the cheapest in the UK? Has anyone found a cheaper alternative?

    I also know that I can use a diluent or emulsification process to mix the oil. However, I think it best I stick to the simple subject of alcohol for this post. I have a lot more experience in emulsifiers and I will likely share my knowledge, worries and question later.
    I'd also like to not use industrial made ethanol, so that really rules out the word ethanol altogether (as you can never be positively sure where they sourced it). I wish to rule this out; as industrial ethanol can also carry worries about the effects it has on the nervous system.

    Thanks to all in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Welcome Attract.
    First you need to read this poorly titled sticky thread near the top of this forum: http://www.basenotes.net/threads/261...fumers-alcohol

    That thread should really be titled "Everything you ever wanted to know about alcohol for perfumery".

    It seems the situation in England is quite bad for obtaining pure 95% ethanol for perfumery. Here are my answers to your questions.

    1. Some types of denatured alcohol have extremely small amounts of denaturant. You might search for something like that for sale in the UK. The problem is that every jurisdiction is different. Here in Canada I can get denatured 95% ethanol that has less than one part per million of Bitrex, also known as Denatonium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatonium. This is present in such minute quantities that honestly, if you did not know it was there, you would probably not have an allergic reaction. I'd suggest a double blind experiment where you obtain some alcohol denatured with Bitrex and some pure 95% ethanol and see if you can tell the difference (not drinking it but just spraying a fraction of a ml on your skin). In general, when I want to use a denatured alcohol for perfume, before I buy it, I simply ask the shopkeeper if I can put a drop on a piece of paper. Usually they are amenable to this. I then wait ten or twenty seconds and smell the paper. If I cannot smell anything, then I consider the stuff good for perfumery. Very often I *can* smell something, so that quickly ends the idea of buying that bottle of denatured alcohol. You can always try this with various brands available in the UK until you find one that works.

    2. I have never heard of this tea tree idea. I would suggest however that by doing this, you are adding hundreds of different molecules to your alcohol, many of which will have distinctive smells that will perturb your perfumery results, and many of which might be sensitizing or allergenic, so it kind of defeats your purpose.

    3. It appears that in the UK for the price of a few litres of that Rektyfikowany stuff you can probably buy the equipment you need to set up a small distillation apparatus and make your own pure ethanol from cheap wine or beer. Maybe start here: http://www.stillsmart.co.uk

  3. #3

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Also, look up Prima Sprit on eBay, if you're commited to using non-denatured alcohol. You'll find options closer to €25 per litre.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    bshell, thank you for your response. Sorry I am replying a week later.
    1. from a personal point of view, I think we are all pushing the boundaries of health and safety when using any denatured alcohol in our perfumes. In a perfect world, our governments would license us to not pay tax and be able to buy it and sell the alcohol in perfume without any denaturant added. Red tape free and healthy.
    2. you are right, it's probably a poor idea at avoiding the tax policies.
    3. I had a look at this, but I feel this could be a bigger headache than it's worth.

    Renegade, I could not find prima spot.

    Based on your feedback and my experiments, I have found a way to use 15% alcohol by volume with water and polysorbate to mix in what I need and get a good spray. This reduces costs of alcohol, I can use drinkable alcohol and I don't need to worry about someone getting ill from my product. It's a delicate process and it doesn't work with resins but it's a small price to pay.

    Thanks to everyone who read this post and to those that replied.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    If you're making this stuff for sale with drinkable alcohol, be careful. I don't know about where you are, but in most instances it is illegal to sell your fragrance with drinkable alcohol as the carrier, hence why denatured alcohol is used in almost all commercial fragrances. The denaturant carried in a quality fragrance alcohol in used such minute amounts as to present no health risk whatsoever, unless perhaps you're filling a bath and soaking in it, then all bets are off.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by attract View Post
    bshell, thank you for your response. Sorry I am replying a week later.
    1. from a personal point of view, I think we are all pushing the boundaries of health and safety when using any denatured alcohol in our perfumes. In a perfect world, our governments would license us to not pay tax and be able to buy it and sell the alcohol in perfume without any denaturant added. Red tape free and healthy.
    2. you are right, it's probably a poor idea at avoiding the tax policies.
    3. I had a look at this, but I feel this could be a bigger headache than it's worth.

    Renegade, I could not find prima spot.

    Based on your feedback and my experiments, I have found a way to use 15% alcohol by volume with water and polysorbate to mix in what I need and get a good spray. This reduces costs of alcohol, I can use drinkable alcohol and I don't need to worry about someone getting ill from my product. It's a delicate process and it doesn't work with resins but it's a small price to pay.

    Thanks to everyone who read this post and to those that replied.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Drinkable alcohol becomes denatured when Perfume concentrate is added. But as far as Alcohol Goes, Australia is very different from other countries.

    USA perfumers can use drinkable alcohol, because all the Gov't cares, is if the taxes on the alcohol have been paid or not.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  7. #7
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Most denaturants are perfectly safe for dermal application, just not for ingestion.
    Currently wearing: Pulp by Byredo

  8. #8

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    I hear you and agree with you. I am an aromatherapist of 20 years and I specialise in botanical perfumery.

    Being an advocate of natural health and wellbeing I simply can not support using alcohol (ethanol and methanol) in anything we apply to our body or put into it.

    I do not even use the word 'Natural' or 'Organic' anymore because both have been misused and abused.

    Personally I feel that perfumes smell so much better being purely botanical and why interfere with something so divine...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Julie, You can use as you wish. Some/many materials used for perfumery only dissolve into alcohol, and not into oils.

    Blending an oil based perfume is quite different from blending an alcohol based perfume. Purely botanical perfumes are a choice.
    Blended alcohol dissolved/carrier based perfume are another quite viable choice, the choice is of course yours.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #10

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    I spent a long time looking for myself. In the UK, it is generally not possible under normal circumstances for anything other than purely personal use. The only answer there was to use chemist lab ethanol that is utterly pure…… the only drawback is that it has to be obtained by a qualified chemist and is highly regulated therefore unworkable unless you know a pet chemist who will give you a small amount for your own use.

    I only have one bottle and I use it for my ambergris tinctures so that they are totally pure. However, if they are going into other peoples already denatured perfumes, the point becomes arbitrary anyway…..
    Currently wearing: Yendi by Roberto Capucci

  11. #11

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Nelson Aromatique View Post
    I hear you and agree with you. I am an aromatherapist of 20 years and I specialise in botanical perfumery.

    Being an advocate of natural health and wellbeing I simply can not support using alcohol (ethanol and methanol) in anything we apply to our body or put into it.

    I do not even use the word 'Natural' or 'Organic' anymore because both have been misused and abused.

    Personally I feel that perfumes smell so much better being purely botanical and why interfere with something so divine...
    So I assume you do not drink anything alcoholic. Do you eat bread? That will have ethanol in it. Do you eat any carbohydrate? You will produce some ethanol when you metabolise it.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Hello and thanks for a great thread as always.
    I have read several threads here regarding ethanol but remain confused. If licencing and cost aren't really an issue here in South Africa (our taxes on alcohol that hasn't been denatured are highish, but you will land up paying about 10 pounds for a liter, not the end of the world) and I can get my hand on 99,9% ethanol absolute (from sugarcane) is this my best option? Or are these alcohols for perfumer actually better products?

  14. #14

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Nelson Aromatique View Post
    Personally I feel that perfumes smell so much better being purely botanical and why interfere with something so divine...
    Hi Julie,

    what is the definition of 'purely botanical' here ?

    Pierpaolo

  15. #15

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnne View Post
    Hello and thanks for a great thread as always.
    I have read several threads here regarding ethanol but remain confused. If licencing and cost aren't really an issue here in South Africa (our taxes on alcohol that hasn't been denatured are highish, but you will land up paying about 10 pounds for a liter, not the end of the world) and I can get my hand on 99,9% ethanol absolute (from sugarcane) is this my best option? Or are these alcohols for perfumer actually better products?
    Sounds good to me. Your 99.9% ethanol will gradually become about 96.0% as it will absorb water. If the Sugarcane ethanol is potable then you can use it.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Sounds good to me. Your 99.9% ethanol will gradually become about 96.0% as it will absorb water. If the Sugarcane ethanol is potable then you can use it.
    Ok great, thanks David! So in this case I would consider it superior to "perfumers alcohol"? And from what I understand this wouldn't effect shipping issues either way as all alcohols have high flash points (also a consideration when shipping) and once the alcohol is part of a perfume it should be considered denatured I imagine?

  17. #17

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnne View Post
    Ok great, thanks David! So in this case I would consider it superior to "perfumers alcohol"? And from what I understand this wouldn't effect shipping issues either way as all alcohols have high flash points (also a consideration when shipping) and once the alcohol is part of a perfume it should be considered denatured I imagine?
    Don't know what you mean by "superior to 'perfumers alcohol'". If it has a low odour then it will work the same as Perfumer's Alcohol. My only slight concern is that how such concentrated alcohol was obtained in the first place. Distilling will achieve about 96.0% purity, to get any more you need to co-distill with, I think, benzine. If this is true then it should not be used. That is why I asked if your ethanol was potable (i.e. you can safely drink it). Alcohol is denatured (render non-potable) to avoid paying tax. There are many chemicals used to denature alcohol; some smell, some do not. The best denaturant for Perfumery use is Bitriex, as it has no odour but tasted very bitter. You are correct though, once the ethanol is mixed with your fragrance it will be considered denatured.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Ah! Makes sense. Yes it's definitely drinkable hence the tax. The denatured perfumer's alcohol I've smelt here is a bunch cheaper (well less than half) by I find it just has the slightest solvent smell. I haven't been able to smell this absolute (the 99,9%) as the minimum order is 10 liters and I have to bring it in from another province, its not a train smash if it the wrong stuff but wanted to try research before placing the order! Much appreciated David

  19. #19

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnne View Post
    Ah! Makes sense. Yes it's definitely drinkable hence the tax. The denatured perfumer's alcohol I've smelt here is a bunch cheaper (well less than half) by I find it just has the slightest solvent smell. I haven't been able to smell this absolute (the 99,9%) as the minimum order is 10 liters and I have to bring it in from another province, its not a train smash if it the wrong stuff but wanted to try research before placing the order! Much appreciated David
    If you think that the denatured perfumer's alcohol has "the slightest solvent smell" then I would be very surprised if you don't find the same smell with the 99.9% ethanol. Everything David says is correct. You are taking a risk buying 10 litres of something you won't like, when you can easily buy 1 L of something that is just fine. I don't see the logic, unless you are into this for major production and product development and so you will ultimately have a use for all that 99.9% ethanol. Even then, 99.9% ethanol is not the typical solvent used by the perfumery industry because it DOES attract water over time and that introduces an unknown into your products, because you may find they go cloudy after a few months because of the added water. NOTE: there is no way to prevent this. It is a natural process and it just happens by itself. Better to use a KNOWN product designed for perfumery.

    But the number one reason not to buy 10 litres of this stuff is that you don't know what it smells like. All ethanol has "the slightest solvent smell" and one of your jobs as a perfumer is to have something in there that disguises this smell for 10 seconds while it evaporates off. This is where top notes come in.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    When ethanol reaches 96.0%, it will no longer absorb any more water (I think!!).

  21. #21

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    When ethanol reaches 96.0%, it will no longer absorb any more water (I think!!).
    That's true David, but if her perfumes start with 99.9% ethanol, she's going to end up with about 4.4% water after some time, and depending on what's in her perfumes, that could force some things to precipitate out of solution. That's all I'm saying. It actually probably won't happen, but it could happen and then it will be a surprise. I guess she could buy the 99.9% stuff and then leave it open on the counter for a week or two and let it equilibrate and become 95.6% ethanol before using it. That would be a good idea.

    Another question so far absent from this discussion is: what is the 0.1% un-named substance in the 99.9% absolute ethanol she is thinking of buying? I.e. what's that missing 0.1%? Is it benzene? That is very likely. I think most people could smell a concentration of 0.1% benzene, don't you?

    From the Wikipedia entry on Ethanol:

    "Absolute alcohol
    Absolute or anhydrous alcohol refers to ethanol with a low water content. There are various grades with maximum water contents ranging from 1% to a few parts per million (ppm) levels. If azeotropic distillation is used to remove water, it will contain trace amounts of the material separation agent (e.g. benzene). Absolute alcohol is not intended for human consumption. Absolute ethanol is used as a solvent for laboratory and industrial applications, where water will react with other chemicals, and as fuel alcohol. Spectroscopic ethanol is an absolute ethanol with a low absorbance in ultraviolet and visible light, fit for use as a solvent in ultraviolet-visible spectroscopy."

    To me, this description would be enough to make me avoid buying the 99.9% absolute ethanol material that she is describing.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by bshell View Post
    That's true David, but if her perfumes start with 99.9% ethanol, she's going to end up with about 4.4% water after some time, and depending on what's in her perfumes, that could force some things to precipitate out of solution. That's all I'm saying. It actually probably won't happen, but it could happen and then it will be a surprise. I guess she could buy the 99.9% stuff and then leave it open on the counter for a week or two and let it equilibrate and become 95.6% ethanol before using it. That would be a good idea.

    Another question so far absent from this discussion is: what is the 0.1% un-named substance in the 99.9% absolute ethanol she is thinking of buying? I.e. what's that missing 0.1%? Is it benzene? That is very likely. I think most people could smell a concentration of 0.1% benzene, don't you?

    From the Wikipedia entry on Ethanol:

    "Absolute alcohol
    Absolute or anhydrous alcohol refers to ethanol with a low water content. There are various grades with maximum water contents ranging from 1% to a few parts per million (ppm) levels. If azeotropic distillation is used to remove water, it will contain trace amounts of the material separation agent (e.g. benzene). Absolute alcohol is not intended for human consumption. Absolute ethanol is used as a solvent for laboratory and industrial applications, where water will react with other chemicals, and as fuel alcohol. Spectroscopic ethanol is an absolute ethanol with a low absorbance in ultraviolet and visible light, fit for use as a solvent in ultraviolet-visible spectroscopy."

    To me, this description would be enough to make me avoid buying the 99.9% absolute ethanol material that she is describing.
    Thanks bshell. However, the solvent smell I'm getting from the denatured perfumers alcohol doesn't evaporate off that what concerns me, its hangs around after evaporation. I smelt 2 from 2 different suppliers so maybe I just need to keep searching for other suppliers in the same line.

    When I was still looking for undenatured alcohol I had found a company that sells 96% ethanol but filed the contact it away as I assumed the 99,9% (from the other company) was better, but maybe I need to revisit the 96%? What do you think the other 4% in the 96% would be? Just water (not benzene?). I can (and will) pose these questions to them but you know how big companies can be when they deal with thousands of gallons and you are asking a million questions while wanting to buy 2 litres!

  23. #23

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    96% ethanol will contain 4.0% water, because if you distill ethanol and water that is what you get. To get a more concentrated ethanol a third co-solvent is needed. This was (still is?) Benzine. However, I strongly doubt that even 0.1% Benzine could be sold for drinking. 96.0% ethanol is fine for Perfumery. The concern with fragrances going cloudy due to water absorption is, in my opinion, unfounded ,

  24. #24
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    96% ethanol will contain 4.0% water, because if you distill ethanol and water that is what you get. To get a more concentrated ethanol a third co-solvent is needed. This was (still is?) Benzine. However, I strongly doubt that even 0.1% Benzine could be sold for drinking. 96.0% ethanol is fine for Perfumery. The concern with fragrances going cloudy due to water absorption is, in my opinion, unfounded ,
    Ok so, they are perhaps less likely to use a co-solvent when preparing 96% as they aren't trying to achieve such a high concentration. I'm going to pose his question to them, curious to see their answer. I will also continue to source other companies selling perfumers alcohol as I'm sure there must be one that doesn't have the solvent smell. The tricky thing here is no medium market (for folk like us), there are massive cosmetics companies buying ethanol by the tonne and then there are small guys that are flogging really cheap knockoffs (they buy ready made compounds, mix them with the cheapest perfumers alcohol available and flog them, neither they or their market is particularly fussed with a slight solvent smell so I don't think the perfumers alcohol here has been "designed" particularly well as the market doesn't demand it. Thanks again David, if anything this is just quite interstsing!

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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    So I finally spoke to one guy at the company, and was told "We supply the Pure Sugarcane Alcohol for the manufacturing of perfumes", there is a 96% and a 99,9%. They also supply a 99,9% for labratory use only. If anybody is curious, here are the specifications (for the manufacturing of perfumes ones):

    Sky500Spec.jpg
    310 SkySpec.jpg

  26. #26
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    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeighAnne View Post
    Unfortunately, when photos are sometimes uploaded to BN, likely fairly large files, like from you phone directly, BN compresses them to the point of unreadability. So, I can't even begin to read these reports to give a response.
    Paul Kiler
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  27. #27

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    May i ask if the ethanol was indeed distilled with benzine to achieve 99% then it's not suitable for perfumery? Is benzine toxic when applied on the skin? I am asking because i have bought some 99% ethanol from the chemist who confirmed the remaining 1%is water.

    Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

  28. #28

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    It is recommended that the amount of benzene in the work place is 1 ppm. Very few things are toxic when applied to skin ( although some are); however, I wouldn't risk it.

  29. #29

    Default Re: The best type of alcohol for a spray perfume (my concerns).

    In general, and if you read the wikipedia entry for 99.9% absolute ethanol, the answer is: no, it is not designed to be used for perfumery. First of all you don't NEED pure ethanol, and secondly, it will attract water anyway from the air until it actually BECOMES 96% Ethanol. I don't even think it takes that long. I believe equilibrium is achieved in a few days if you leave the bottle open. To answer your question: there are many ways to get the water out of ethanol. A typical method of getting to 99.9% is to use Zeolite, which is an aluminosilicate mineral that absorbs water very readily when mixed with ethanol, and it is easy to filter out. So benzene is NOT needed. However, it is the classic method and the easiest and cheapest method to produce 99.9% absolute ethanol.

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