Anytime you add water and/or Glycerine you run the risk of solubility problems; depends how much, of course. To make your fragrance last longer I would reformulate, and add some more Back note/Fixative. That's what they are there for.
I mixed 15% perfume oils with 85% perfume grade solvent and the fragrance is perfect but doesn't last longer than an hour. The oils and solvent have been mixed for 3 months and stored in 1 litre aluminium canisters.
The question: Whether to add a small amount of distilled water to slow the evaporation on the skin and how much and/ or add Glycerin.
Any informed contributions would be appreciated...
Anytime you add water and/or Glycerine you run the risk of solubility problems; depends how much, of course. To make your fragrance last longer I would reformulate, and add some more Back note/Fixative. That's what they are there for.
The scent oil I am buying is already formulated in a "close to XYZ famous brand" so I am diluting the Strong Pure oil with perfume solvent to make larger batch.
Specifically when should the Glycerin be added. There's a lot of contradictory advice online regarding mixing Glycerin with oil fragrance and then adding vodka/ Everclear/ perfume solvent.
So when to add the glycerin? Directly into the oil and then add the solvent/ vodka?
Your copycat fragrance is clearly not very good if it doesn't last long. Does the original last longer? If you must add Glycerine, I would add it to the alcohol before mixing with your fragrance concentrate.
Thanks for the tip about adding the Glycerine into the alcohol/ solvent and then adding the oil fragrance.
I'm not sure it's a fair assumption to say the copycat fragrance is not very good because it lacks the staying additives of the original. The scent is the same. Professional fragrance houses use various ingredients to make their scents have staying power and this is simply what it lacks.
When is the best time to add distilled water? Is it advisable to also add this to the alcohol/ solvent before the oil fragrance?
The longevity of a fragrance is a part of the fragrance; it is very rare that the longevity is controlled after the fragrance has been formulated. That's one of the reasons we use base note materials that are fixatives. In all my years as a perfumer (over thirty) I have never modified the staying power of a fragrance in the way you describe. Thus the two fragrances you mention (the original and the copy) cannot be the same. Whoever matched the original didn't do it properly. The top note may be the same but it clearly doesn't perform in the same way.
I would add water to the fragrance when it is mixed into the alcohol. As I do not know the composition of the fragrance nor the type of alcohol you are using it is impossible for me to tell you how much water to add.
I agree with David here. Personally I don't generally add either glycerine or water to my alcoholic fragrances and when I do add water it is not in the expectation of it acting as a fixative, which it does not.
There is an excellent explanation of the physical and chemical factors involved in Louis Appel's work Cosmetics, Fragrances and Flavors from 1984. He starts from the basis that
Raoult's Law will apply, gives the resulting calculations of partial vapour pressure of volatile material in solvents and demonstrates that although the general form of the law predicts that there will be a reduction in partial pressure in water (which you would expect to yield reduced odour and therefore longer lasting odour) but goes on to demonstrate that experimental evidence does not support this and to derive a simple version of the law that applies to volatile aromatic substances in solvent, irrespective of the solvent, showing that the dependency is on concentration of the aromatic only.
There was also some very good evidence published in the 1970s which demonstrated that the presence of various tested fixatives did indeed have the effect of reducing the rate of evaporation of a range of tested volatile aromatics. Fixatives tested (and found to be effective) included some which might be surprising such as isopropyl myristate and hedione as well as musks, resins and so on. The same work also demonstrated that the effect of a given fixative is not uniform across a range of aromatics.
What all this science goes to prove is that there are good, evidence-based reasons why perfumers have to work hard to match the right fixative with a given blend of more volatile aromatic substances in order to make it last longer. There isn't a magic ingredient, somehow kept secret by perfume manufacturers, that is popped in at the end that somehow makes it last when before it did not. Certainly adding water will not have that effect.
Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 10th September 2012 at 06:27 PM. Reason: minor corrections
Thanks to you both for your informed replies.
Only in case reformulation is not possible you could think of other options, in that case glycerin is usualy not the best choice for an alcohol based fragrance, DEP and DPG are better choices.
How much DPG/100ml of the previous batch which had poor longevity should I add?
I still have 200ml of the fragrance oil. To reformulate with projection and Longevity in mind would it be advisable to do the following with a new batch:
Begin with 200ml fragrance oil with a view to add just 570ml alcohol and 30ml fixers in the following way...
To the 200ml fragrance oil and add 5ml Glycerin and 20ml DPG and shake frequently over 48hr period to bond. After 48hrs add 570ml Ethanol 96% (which contains distilled water) and add 10ml DPG.
store and shake frequently for 4 weeks.
Adding DPG and in this method will add "lasting properties" or not? If not what is the best way to formulate for adding longevity from start to finish...
Last edited by smellsliketeenspirit; 16th September 2012 at 12:53 AM.
DPG will have little effect on the longevity of the fragrance and by diluting the fragrance with extra solvent you will end up with a weaker product. Why not face the fact that your copycat fragrance is not a good match of the original and that nothing you can do will improve things. The only way to improve the performance is to reformulate.
I agree mainly with David, DPG or DEP (2-5%) might help a little bit, but not in all cases (depends of the formulation of the fragrance). In case you use too much it will dillute the fragrance.
The best advise is probably to make a product like a body splash: that does not need to last long.
In case you know something about formulation a fragrance you might try to improve the fragrance by adding the basenotes and fixatives it seems to lack. For instance, in case your too-cheaply-purchased-bad-formulated-copycat-fragrance was intended to smell like Chanel no5 you could add some coumarin, oakmoss absolute, benzyl salicylate and musks, for Opium you could try vanillin, coumarin, EO Patchouli, benzyl salicylate and benzoin siam resinoid. In both cases the fragrance will change, it will smell different.
There is not a good general solution to your problem. Best solution is therefor: reformulating the fragrance or, in case you don't want to do it yourself: purchase a better formulated fragrance. Be prepared to pay the higher price if needed and test it before purchasing a large amount.
I am also confused about this issue of the role of fixatives. So I reformulate and I have my DPG delivered and ready to integrate.
In relation to fixatives/ back notes
When Searching for previous threads on DPG Others are clearly confused about this issue and the responses strayed off the original question
Reading other threads about DPG it is more often mentioned in relation to it being an option as a carrier (like vodka, ethanol, everclear etc).
1) Considering DPG is more expensive than ethanol is there a reason why it would be preferred over ethanol as a carrier...Is it a better quality carrier?
2) If the desired result is Parfum strength, using Ethanol as the carrier what percentage should DPG be? For example 30% Fragrance oil, 60% Ethanol as a carrier and 10% DPG as a fixative.
Or would this be better:
3) 30% Fragrance oils, 35% DPG and 35% Ethanol
DPG is cheaper than ethanol when considering excise and transport cost due to the flamabilty of ethanol, besides that in bulk both are cheap.
DPG is most used in the fragrance industry as a solvent. That can be either a way to make the product cheaper (for DPG is cheaper than most fragrances), to adjust the fragrance strength (for instance you sell 10 different fragrance compounds and want all to be used at 3%, in that case you could add some DPG to the stronger of the fragrances), to solve solid fragrances (in liquid it is easier to handle). DPG is compatible with most water based products and helps solubilizing in more oil based products. Then it is not flamable.
Let 's assume that your fragrance oil consists of only fragrance materials, it is not dilluted with cheap solvents, in that case 12-20% fragrance oil would make perfume strenght. If it would be a cheaply made product it might consist of 20% fragrance materials and 80% solvents. Therefor it is not possible to give a general formulation for fragrance oils, you simply have to try what works.
For perfume I would use only ethanol + the general additions like UV protection and antioxidant. No reason in general to add DPG. In an alcoholic perfume replacing ethanol partialy by DPG will make it less radiant and the perfume may be longer as a liquid on the skin.
Sorry , if you are not going to take any notice of me, I'm not going to play. DPG is not a fixative; OK?
I've found that ISO Super extends the longevity to some fragrances.
Apologies David. Some stated that DPG might help a little and would be a better alternative to Glycerin and in the 2 days from those posts to your reply I had ordered some DPG. I have 200ml - 500ml of different fragrance oils remaining and rather than just throw it away I'm wondering if simply increasing the ratio from the original 15% to 30% and WHICH fixatives MIGHT help to add longevity. Now I know that DPG is more a solvent and not a fixative. Thanks to Silverbullet with note about ISO Super.
Chris B mentioned several materials that have been shown to have fixative properties. However using any or all of them will change the structure of your original fragrance. Once again I will repeat what I have written before. Your copycat fragrance(s) is (are) not good. If the original fragrance has greater longevity than your match, the match is not good. Get it matched properly. Other than than that, there is little you can do without changing the fragrance. If that doesn't matter, then go ahead.
Last edited by David Ruskin; 21st September 2012 at 07:02 PM.
Are you even saying increasing the ratio of oil from 15% to 30% won't increase longevity?
Sorry to be absent from this discussion for so long, things are very busy with me at the moment, so I'm going to make this brief and come back to the complicated question of partial pressures another time.
Increasing the concentration will almost certainly increase the strength of your fragrance, it will probably have only a very slight effect on it's longevity however.
Given that you have a lot of concentrate already, rather than waste it, try this (with a small amount first):
30% fragrance oil
10% IPM (isopropyl myristate)
8% DEP (diethyl pthalate)
2% BA (benzyl alcohol)
50% ethanol at 96%
If you don't have BA, IPM or DEP use any two or one alone or just miss out all and see what it's like with the 30/70 ratio but all ethanol. Don't use more than 2% BA as it's restricted.
That's the only way I think you might increase longevity without significantly altering the fragrance.
Adding Iso E Super will increase longevity, but will also change the smell - but could be worth a try - 1-5% would probably have a beneficial effect, but the fragrance will seem 'thicker' and more robust than before.
Ok Round Two!
I've bought some new fragrance oil from a large producer in Grasse. I noticed immediately that their samples were more refined and testing in the remaining ethanol I had the longevity was better. This time I'm using Perfumer's Alcohol from Mistral which contains IPM and some DPG is on the way. ISO E Super from Holland arrived today.
If I may... Some questions please?
Once I have the fragrance oil should I add the Perfumers Alcohol, DPG and ISO E Super at the same time or should the ISO E Super be added last (weeks later) as I intend to let the fragrance oil and alcohol mix for a few weeks.
In the previous threads when I was trying to get longevity from apparently poorer oils Chris mentioned other additives like 2% Benzyl Alcohol and 8% DEP would be worth a go! I have gone for DPG as it was offered as try one or the other. This leaves Benzyl Alcohol missing. I will try the longevity with the combinations above and see if it's satisfactory, in the meantime are there any thoughts that BA is a must?
I would mix them all at the same time. You certainly want the Iso E Super in early on. I think you'll know within a day or two whether this has been a success - you won't need to wait weeks to try it out.
I don't think BA is necessary unless the plan you've come up with does not work satisfactorily - it will act slightly differently than the other fixatives and I suggested it because it is such a common constituent in natural scents and works well to fix florals in particular, which the other things do less well, on the other hand the restriction limits what you can do with it.
I wouldn't use more than about 10% DPG or you may find the resulting perfume is too sticky - it's much thicker than IPM or DEP.
BTW if you need more Iso E Super I have an excess and can sell some on - I bought loads because it was a bargain (!)
Why do I or anyone else bother; "smellsliketeenspirit 'do what the hell you like, and good luck. No point in giving you advice as you will do whatever you want.
I would like to come back to the open question in this thread of partial pressures and fixatives. I understand it now and I will boil it down to the main idea: We observe a group of school-boys as they play football and stick together. Then we observe a group of school-girls as they stick together. After these two observations we still don't know what happens if we mix boys and girls. Raoult's law assumes that interactions between boys and girls don't make a change and can be neglected in a mixed group. But we know from experience that boys and girls are very different so that the interactions between boys and girls change things a lot. We might observe that boys and girls attract each other even more and won't let each other go, so the vaporization decreases. Raoult's law is only applicable for two materials with similar properties regarding polarity, mass etc. There is an interesting paper from 1976 about fixatives, see for example the discussion section:
let me tell you that how to make a perfume..
first of all you need 200% pure alchol .......if it is not posibul then get 100% to make a solvent
the second one you need pg(propilane glacol)
the third one you need dpg(de propilane glacol)
and 4th one you need ipm(iso proplen mearstate)
and after that you need methnool
ofcourse you need distiled water
now all you have to do is just take a dark optical bottle and pure 50% alchol
then add 5%methnol so that you perfume get sharp and sparkling
after that add 5%dpg and 5%pg
stir the liqurad slowly and then add 5% ipm
and finly add 30% perfume oil and stir slowly
once its dillute completly put it into the chiller for minmum 45 days
after 45 days ad 5 ml disteld water and put it once agin in chiller for 15 days
after 2 months complet just take your accord and put it into a perfume bottle and enjoy it with all the power and long lasting you are looking for.........
You need fragrance concentrate and ethanol, nothing else: the hard part is making the fragrance concentrate properly.
Propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, isopropyl myristate and water are all useful solvents for certain fragrance components and, in small proportions, will do no harm but none of them is necessary. Methanol is poisonous, foul smelling and completely unsuitable for use in perfume.
There is no such thing as 200% pure alcohol (or 200% pure anything for that matter). 200 proof alcohol is the same as 96% v/v ethanol, and is fine for making perfume. I don't know where the 100% and 50% alcohol are meant to come in - that bit just makes no sense at all.
30% 'perfume' would be too strong for most purposes (if 'perfume' meant fragrance concentrate). With all the other additions the resulting blend would be too sticky to use in most atomisers too and with the addition of water or use of ethanol at less than 96% it would also be as cloudy as milk, which in turn would likely mean it would go off too.
There is no need to chill fragrance in order to mature it - that will just mean it matures more slowly - cold storage is useful once the maturation process is complete.
Last edited by pkiler; 19th February 2013 at 07:21 PM.
when someone think about to make a perfume at home
what maximum step he can take to make an acoord like a frech perfume?
1) take a perfume oil (ready to dillute in alchol)
and have some alchol pure it into the perfume oil and
after a weak add some water.......your perfume is ready to wear........
now come to the second part..............
you need minimun 12 esenshal oils
4 for top note (citrus)
4for midlle notes(floral)
4 for base note(woody)
but the point is
esenshal oils are good but it is not the only option you have. you have to add lot of other chamical now what to do
spoze if we talk about top notes (the citrus note) you have estnshal oils like lemon lime bergamot and neroli..........but to make a modren perfume you need some chemicals also so what to do now ......?you have to add some chamicals like citral limonene geronal (in right amount......but the problum is some of citus chamical are to strong to add in top notes so its an art to collect the right one
if you have floral notes in the middle notes and now you have to give it a modran touch so you have to add some chamicals...............
spoze you are talking about benzil actate its have a light jasmin aroma and order is low (4 hours at smeling stip) this can be use in middle note due to its floral aroma but just becose of its low order you cant put it into the middle note so what to do now ?
now you have to take vernaldehyde its have a green mountain air carctor and have a good strenth and can blend well with citrus floral and woody notes
now to come to the third part
the base notes
in wich you have cedarwood oil sandalwood oil marrgum and ambergrees
now you have to add some chamical acoding to the streght of the bace oils
now its your scence of perfume making that what kind of chamicals you need to make a perfact blend
spoze you add sandalwood oil so you can add sandalwood assnece (its not an esanshal oils ) its a chamical compund and very pleazent
if you are making a perfume like this
yes there is no need 30% of perfume oil eaven 10% make a very strong scent
but if you are dealing with a perfume oil (in low strength) its up to you that what to do what not to do)
i know there is nothing like 200% but let me tell you what i mean
if have a vodka and it is 80% proof then its mean that its have 40% alchol
if you have 100% proof ethnol its mean its contain 50% alchol
and if you have 200% alchol then its mean mean its have minum 95% alchol like eaverclear and monshine
now come to the final point......................................
perfume making is not a kind of relgun in wich you dont have opstion that you are not allwod to do whateaver you want to do
all the perfumery methords are made by heumens like us..............
if there is a boy with toy and dont want to do something in wich he have to fight an uphill battle then there is no need to do any thing just have a rady made perfume oil and put it into the ethnol and its ready to wear
but if someone is serieus about perfumery then have to do somthing with the solvent to make a perfume
have to add some jojob or grapseed oil sweed almond oil
as far as cunsorn of methnol is poison
what about benzene?
and ethnol by himself ?
hundreds of chamicals out there is nothing but a poison
so what to do now if all perfumer companies are making such craps?
you said all these solvents make perfume cloudy
but give it a try...............
Tallat, it is quite clear that you do not know what you are talking about. There are those on this thread that have (collectively),centuries of experience; you are talking rubbish.
Ummmm, is it a troll?
Oh christ, is it?
Last edited by lpp; 27th April 2013 at 08:42 PM.
While it's difficult to measure and the math is even worse, ultimately what is happening in the transfer of aroma molecules from the skin and materials on the skin and the air is a function of the chemical potential of the molecules. Chemical potential refers to the energy. A good analogy is gravitational potential. The higher up an object is, the more potential energy it has. If it is on a ramp let's say, its direction of motion will tend (strongly!!!) to be down the ramp, in the direction where the gravitational potential is less.
Similarly, the higher the chemical potential of the aroma molecules on the skin and in the materials on the skin, the more the molecules will be driven into the air, and the less time they will last.
Materials which themselves only slowly evaporate into the air, and into which the aroma molecules are highly soluble (have low chemical potential when dissolved in them) serve as fixatives by lowering their chemical potential.
There can be other effects as well, such as causing some shallow and reversible dermal penetration, but I have exactly zero information on that.
To use your analogy, let's say that a teenager is milling around with thousands of other teens, of whom only a few are basketball players. As it happens, the teens having no interest in basketball are in a hurry to leave the area, and he himself ordinarily might not stay long if not repeatedly getting suggestions to play basketball. However, as those teens leave, now seemingly everyone he meets is interested in playing basketball and he keeps getting invited.
The result is, he continues to hang around!
That's the most elegant reprimand that I've ever read - apologies.
i have a perfume oil with a very good lasting power....
but its not as diffusive as i want...
is it possibul for me to add some iso e super and hedone in little amount so that its become more diffusive.....
as i have been told that you should not play perfume oil(becse its a finesd product)
and the second one.........
is it posibul to add some ipm and dep to give strenght the perfume oil or it will spoile......
I would look in the range of melonal, ultrazur, aldehydes, ambrocenide, cosmone, frankincense EO et cetera
Your'e welcome to visit my formulation blog, with a dozen of perfume formulations and accords to share!
A long lasting perfume has to built that way from the ground up. That is one thing that makes perfuming difficult. You are making a lime scent, and yet lime lasts about ten minutes. What do you do?
What you do is build a whole perfume that supports lime in, say, dozens of ways.
I'd say the bigger problem is having made the perfume with 85% percent alcohol without being sure that was the proper amount of alcohol. In my opinion, the ideal amount of both water and alcohol depends on the perfume.
- - - Updated - - -
It would be tough to do that with a finished perfume, however, because then you are dealing with water.
- - - Updated - - -
BTW, Chris also gives great info here, as per the usual.
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 29th April 2013 at 08:29 AM.
i would like to make a perfume at home with Essential oils
but i have been told that in some cases the Synthetic give far batter result as compear to Essential oils
is there any help...........
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 29th April 2013 at 03:53 PM.
Tallat, you have quite a fine capability to hijack a tread to try to get your own answer to your own question, instead of staying on the thread topic. You have tried to change the thread topic many times in recent history, for your own means.
If you wish to ask a question not in the original thread, or it's topic, please start your own thread... And ask your own question in that new thread, in the future... PLEASE!
Edited for further hand spanking!
On the other hand, I suppose that we could take a vote and get you thrown out for giving us such nonsense to talk about,, See above...!
Tallat - there's a 'sticky' thread near the top of this section entitled 'Primer on How to Make Perfume' - suggest reading that first as it's pretty helpful.
Last edited by lpp; 29th April 2013 at 07:37 PM.
my question is i add 5%of (dpg) 25% of (perfume oil) 10% Distilled water&rest is alcohol. So is that a correct way to make a perfume and a correct ratio of all? Thank you.
Last edited by sharif; Yesterday at 12:41 PM.
Hmm.. The link to the 1976 fixation paper doesn't work.. Does anyone know where
I can find it? Don't have enough info to oogle it.
I'm also curious about using different fixatives for different types of molecules.. Sounds
pretty bizarre. Would really appreciate if someone can share some links/papers on that.
Thanks for the informative thread (well, except the weird excursions..)
.................................................. .................................................. ................
Last edited by sharif; Yesterday at 12:40 PM.
Alcohol absorbs water. Just mix your fragrance concentrate with alcohol; it is that simple. Do not add any extra DPG, or extra water, or extra anything.
Last edited by sharif; Yesterday at 12:39 PM.
Why don't you ask someone in your company?
I explained above why you would use DPG, please read my post on this (No. 47). DPG is used as a solvent in Perfumery; to make solutions of solids or very strong materials, to dilute very sticky solids for ease of compounding, to dilute a fragrance to cheapen it. Water, distilled or otherwise is not necessary (this no for the third time).
I have no idea what the policy of ethanol buying is in your company; as Nizan suggests, ask them.
they r jealous & give me wrong information