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  1. #1

    Default Help me identify this chemical

    Hello everyone - seeking your wisdom!

    There is a chemical that is prominent in a few scents, and I absolutely love it. Here's what I can tell you about the chemical

    -It is most evident in the dry down.
    -It smells fairly synthetic
    -It smells rather smooth, metallic, minty, with hints of vanilla
    -Could be seen as futuristic or 'space-like' - somehow strikes me as a space-like floral (no immediate earthly floral analogs come to mind)
    -It also has a bit of a white gauze/bandage feel (not exactly the regular band aid smell of some ouds - more sterilized/white)
    -Its color would be white or silver (at least that's how my mind eye perceives it)
    -There is a hint of something dirty in it. A hint of indoles or something.
    -I'd say it has a crystalline/smooth texture, and could even be seen as generally ozonic or marine-ish, with slight hints of vanillic amber.
    -Despite overall being smooth,fresh and crystalline, it is still fairly 'thick' in texture (ok, I know this sounds paradoxical). It's like if you took calamus, added a minty crystalline zing to the top of it (and maybe a bit of lavender), and some vanilla and indoles on the backend.


    Here are some scents I get the note in:
    Fahrenheit 32 (very clear in this scent)
    Bond Montauk (the late dry down of this scent seems to me like it is almost all this chemical)
    Secretions Magnifique (that crystalline floral/bandage note)
    Reflection Man (noticeable in the late dry down - a bit less obvious here than in the above scents)

    Maybe it's a base, something like Ultrazur? Anyhow, I'm quite sure that the same chemical is present and fairly noticeable in all of the listed scents - they all strike my nose in a very peculiar way that only this chemical seems to do. I really must know what it is as I intend to use it as the central theme for one of my own compositions.

    Thank you in advance!
    Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 12th September 2012 at 07:33 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    I was incidentally hunting for a note I saw described as an oyster note. I don't yet know what it is, but I wonder if this is the same thing as it was mentioned as an ingredient in SM.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think I remember reading it was supposed to be a nitrile making SM metallic, bloody and marine-ish.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I found a floral nitrile with anisic properties. It may be bandage-ish.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Mumsy; a nitrile!! Now now, naughty.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Do you think SOS's might be one? Or the oysterish smell. You have a broad knowledge of these things. Any suggestions?

    Naughty me indeed... I was sent some chems in a fellow DIYers ingredient swap and keep them for reference and understanding. I may choose not to use them but it is important to know the smell.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Did some more research and think it might be one of the chemicals listed below. One of the common notes listed (which I know means little) in the scents I originally referenced is iris. Are there any of the ionones or other irisy chemicals that display the qualities I mentioned in the original post (and also below)?

    Also though, I get jasmine nuances and something kind of hyacinth-ish, too. Metal, camphor, mothballs, coumarin and bandages, too. So, with all of that in mind, I came up with this list; maybe someone with experience with the chemicals listed below could tell me if they are metallic (something rarely seen in the descriptions).


    (Also, thanks for that link Mumsy. From what you posted that sounds like a contender too - unfortunately I can't get more info on it at the moment as it seems like The Good Scents page is currently down (seems like it's been going down a lot here lately. Odd)).



    So, in a sort of most likely to least likely order, here goes:

    indolene
    strong narcotic-floral moth ball naphthelene erogenic-floral animal jasmine orange-flower less fecal than indole
    Question: Just how fecal is this? How strong are the napthelene/mothball notes? How floral?

    2-methyl undecanal (aldehyde C-12 mna)
    fresh amber aldehydic moss citrus tuberose metallic waxy coumarinic

    beta-naphthyl ethyl ether
    naphtha floral orange blossom powdery grape
    substantivity: 400 hours


    benzyl alcohol dd
    Odor Description: very mild, nearly neutral, little characteristic, slightly reminiscent of almond and naphthalene
    Question: what is the longevity like of this stuff?

    Orriniff
    OLFACTORY DESCRIPTION
    Orris, mimosa, violet leaf, amber complex with a leather, woody nuance. Imparts warm orris amber tones to fragrances. Gives compounds volume.
    Long lasting
    Question: Doubtful based on the description, but anything metallic/radiant about this stuff?


    ORIVONE
    Woody, dry, Orris, Camphoraceous
    Question: Doubtful based on the description, but anything metallic/radiant about this stuff?

    Maritime
    fresh air watery buttery clean wet costus metallic
    304 hours

    Jacinthaflor
    Question: Is this metallic at all? A long lasting base note?


    nerolin
    sweet naphthyl strawberry fruity orange blossom

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by SculptureOfSoul; 14th September 2012 at 08:17 AM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    There are a couple of chemicals described as Orris or Iris like. Iris Nitrile, Violet Nitrile, Irival, All very powerful, all having a metallic edge to them. Marenil (the nitrile in SM) and Maritima, have the metallic note but are more marine like.

    However from the complexity of the description the unknown material is probably a base of some kind rather than a single chemical.

    Indolene is the reaction product between Indole and Hydroxycitronellal. It is more floral and less naphthalinic than Indole, and more Jasmin floral. As Jasmin has a faecal edge so to does Indolene.

    Aldehyde C12 MNA is usually described as Pine/Amber. Never heard it described as Tuberose before, and I don't think it smell like that either. If you can remember the original Badidas foam bath, there is a huge amount of C12 MNA in it.

    Benyl Alcohol is very mild, slightly floral with a hint of almonds due to the inevitable presence of traces of Benzaldehyde. I always think of it as a top note solvent.

    Jacinthaflor is a wonderfully complex base that smells of animalic Hyacinth. There is a strong Scatole like note (think bad breath and drains) which works well with the green floral part. Lasts a long time. Used in trace amounts. There is a slight metallic note.

    really difficult without smelling the stuff to know what is being described. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 14th September 2012 at 10:53 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Thanks a ton David. I'm going to be getting as many of these chemicals as I can, although not all of them are easily sourceable in small amounts, sadly.

    I'm trying to remember where I got the description of Aldehyde C12 MNA. It was either Symrise's site or one of the suppliers' sites. Sadly I've never even heard of, much less smelled, Badidas foam bath.

    Jacinthaflor seems like it could be a contender. I think you're right that it may be a particular base, or, even more difficult, an accord that has been adopted (perhaps with slight alterations) within/between the scents. For instance, in Bond's Montauk there is less of the indole/jasmine element, more of the hyacinth element, but the radiant metallic quality is still present (with that weird amber/sweet quality). I think the drydown of Montauk shows it best, with Fahrenheit 32 showcasing the other elements I've mentioned best (the jasmine/indole/violet tonalities). I actually remember it being very prominent in Secretions but I'm hesitant to put that back on skin. I'll dig out my sample of that and see if it's noticeable on paper.

    If anyone who has a lot of experience with aroma chemicals is up for it, let me know and I'll procure new/fresh samples (mine are mostly empty) and ship them to you if you'll help me with this. Thanks!
    ***For sale:

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    and more!
    - http://www.basenotes.net/threads/301...n-Man-and-more

  8. #8

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    I didn't know if Badidas reached America. How about a toilet cleaner called Frisch? Original Pine fragrance for that product was a trickledown of the original Badedas. Aldehyde C12 MNA is used a lot in pine fragrances; but I'm sure you guessed that!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    What a lovely question! David already gave some wonderful ideas.

    Badedas is also in the US, here:
    http://www.amazon.com/Badedas-Classi.../dp/B0006NXAHQ

    I would also think it's a base, with maybe some captives included.

    Other iris note that has some metallic tones to me is violiff (violet methyl carbonate).
    But I haven't smelled the frags you mention (besides SM) so I have no idea.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    I don't think it's a captive as Antoine Lie (Secretions) and Laurent Le Guernec (Montauk) are both from IFF, although Lucas Sieuzac (Reflection Man) is from Symrise and Louise Turner who did Fahrenheit 32 is from Givaudan.

    Adding violiff on my list of chemicals to track down.

    Are there any really metallic/radiant ozonics? The 'texture' of the chemical is definitely smooth - and it calls to mind mirrors or reflective surfaces. A pool of mercury.

    Btw, just PM me if you'd like me to get you some samples. It may take a few weeks as I need to track down extra samples, but I will gladly do so and get them to you free of charge.
    ***For sale:

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    and more!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Will pm you, although I think David's nose would be a much better choice.
    You are not trying to find out more about S01E04 are you?

    As for 'bases' and captives, it is my understanding that it works something like this: one of the big 5 discovers a nice aromatic molecule that gets patented and published on. Then it gets added to a formula of a base, like the Ultrazur you mention, thus getting 'buried' by the proprietary thing. The makers of the base (one of the big 5) use it first in (some of) their perfumes and then they sell it to the competition for a fee.
    So it is very possible that different perfume houses sometimes use the same captives for different perfumes. Sometimes the clue is to see which house came up first with a perfume that includes those captives.

    Anyways I will need to look for the metallic ozones (with some floral qualities) you are talking about. Maybe David can chime in?

    Some that pop into my head are:
    myroxide (ocimene oxirane)
    anther (green ether)
    vernaldehyde (green carbaldehyde)
    petiole (phenethyl isopropyl ether)
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Just hopping in here real quick - will make a more detailed reply tomorrow night when I've got more time...

    I've been re-smelling Montauk today as I think the chemical is more isolated there and I really should have emphasized the camphor element of the chemical.

    It's quite like white camphor but smoother - like white camphor with the smooth/metallic/radiant qualities of a high irone orris extract. The other thing is, the chemical is quite strong - it's still projecting strongly 8 hours after application. My guess is that its strength is fairly constant and tends to be 'covered up' earlier in the composition by aromachemicals that have a more traditional diffusive opening and linear dropoff thereafter, while this seems to hum along at a steady 5 or 6 out of 10 in volume (if I had to try and rate it).

    So - maybe you can help me by naming any long long (8-12 hours or more) lasting camphory components with good and steady diffusiveness?

    Thanks!
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    For the camphoreous + iris aspect I have no idea. But maybe you mean more herbal-agrestic/green/leafy? In that case it could be

    Violettyne MIP
    Odor: Nice fruity-green, strongly violet-leaf note reminiscent of Methyl Octine and Methyl Heptine Carbonate with a nice Galbanum under note
    Use: Can replace MOC or MHC, or used as a new fresh green note. A very stable and powerful green violet leaf note with a unique cucumber or bell pepper aspect.

    Parmanyl
    Odor: green, floral, violet and cucumber-like
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Maybe Ambroxan?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    Your unknown is getting more complex by the minute. Now we have to add a camphoraceous ( and long lasting camphoraceous) note to the rest of its properties. I am more and more convinced that this cannot be a single chemical; it is either a base or an accord. Good luck.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    David, you're definitely right. I'm thinking it's at least two chemicals if not more. When I get the chance I'm going to retest all scents side by side and see if I can't find the precise points of overlaps (ha, difficult!).

    One of the chemicals is an ambiguously minty (not clearly peppermint, definitely not spearmint, maybe hints of wintergreen) camphor orris like thing. It's cold, metallic and radiant (this is just going on memory, but I think it might be in Creed's SMW as well, providing the cold 'air from a freezer' note many have noticed in the scent). The other note is a sort of lactonic jasmine/lilac/hyacinth with a slight animalic backdrop.

    Thing is, as I've little experience with pure aroma chemicals, I'm having a hard time finding the 'borders' of this chemical(s). I'm quite sure that the scents listed all share the camphory/radiant note, but not all of them have the lactonic animalic floral quality (it is most clearly evidenced in Fahrenheit 32).

    I'm going to explore all of the notes listed above as well as a few other jasmine-y ones that sound like they might fit the bill (dijasmone, for example).
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Help me identify this chemical

    SOS, I agree with David. It is hard to guess without smelling Do you own any aromachems? Maybe the first step is to try and narrow it down by looking where you can get some small quantities of the aromachems with the odor profile you are describing?
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

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