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  1. #1

    Default Onion and/or garlic

    Is there any common perfumery ingredient used to reproduce an onion or garlic note? I now that sulfides and generally "thio" compounds are the main chemical components of these products smell but can they be used in perfumery? Or is it possibile to use directly onion and garlic EOs?
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  2. #2

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    What a coincidence. Just yesterday I was wondering when someone would start this very thread.

    for swap/sale:





  3. #3

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Onion scents could replace the current "oud" trend...


    Prada "Infusion d'Onion"

    Montale "White Granex Aoud"

    Le Labo "Vidalia 13"

    Any Takers??

  4. #4

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    I saw a garlic EO only yesterday... could it really smell nice?

    Add some red wine EO for

    Halitosis "L'eau de le matin"

    Add some cumin for

    Le Pits "L'extrusions magnifique"

  5. #5

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Have smelt both onion and garlic extracts, used in flavouring. You certainly don't need much! Also smelt leek extract, which is utterly vile; the worst of the three. A touch of either works really well with very green notes, especially Galbanum. More common to Perfumery (although not that common) is Asafoetida which smells like Garlic that has gone bad. Used in Indian cooking, and is often used to extend Galbanum oil. Add a touch of Asafoetida and dilute your Galbanum with some Pine oil. Happens quite often.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    I just love the fact that a really fairly horrid smell can enhance another. The stinkier factions of perfumery are something I have been toying with recently and finding all sorts of interesting nuances that I wouldn't have investigated. I am going to have to smell these because I find it hard to imagine how garlic or onions can enhance anything other than food. I think I may have smelled Asafoetida. I wonder how much the word fetid is a coincidence.

    I found this:- http://www.gourmetgarlicgardens.com/...anchoroverview

    and this:- http://www.herballegacy.com/Wilson_Chemical.html

  7. #7

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    From Wikipedia: Asafoetida's English and scientific name is derived from the Persian word for resin (asa) and Latin foetida, which refers to its strong sulfurous odour.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  8. #8

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Laughing at the "new" onion-based frags... Vidalia 13, by usual Le Labo standards, will smell not of sweet onions but of garlic.

    cacio

  9. #9

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Gosh I wasn't aware of this new fashiong coming up. I guess I'll wait for it to pass before trying something with onions
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  10. #10

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    EO of garlic is awfull, you smell it trough several layers of well sealed plastic foil. I think that even a 0.1% solution is useless in perfumes. In case you want an awfull fragrance: use lots of it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    The "stinkers' are vital to perfumery. Think of them as you would a touch of spice in a meal. Imagine a soup without any salt, it would taste dull. Imagine swallowing a spoonful of salt, you would throw up. But, imagine a sprinkle of salt in your soup; it comes alive.

    Garlic and Onion oils, as well as Asafoedita should be used (if at all) as 0.01% solutions at the very most. A little goes a very long way.

    I have always maintained that perfumers and flavourists should talk more. Flavourists use the most amazing, and often disgusting, materials to achieve wonderful results. We should follow suite. Sulphur containing chemicals often provide a unique tropical fruit note. Pyrazines should be used to provide anything from pop corn to bell peppers. DiMethyl Sulphide (which occurs in Geranium oil) is very volatile and smells of boiled cabbage. If you want a lychee note, you have to use it.

    I could go on.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    For the record, the reason why we feel so heavily the odour of these sulfur containing molecules is that our nose evolution brought it to be able to detect very tiny amounts of hydrogen sulfide, a highly toxic gas, which is somehow a very close "relative" of the organic sulfides found in onion and garlic. Actually we could be able to detect it down to a concentration of 1 ppb (parts per billion, like 1 mg of it every 1000 kg of normal air) even though the first damages come at concentrations about 50000 times higher.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  13. #13

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    I'm so happy that somebody started this thread - multiple times before I assumed that I must be demented when I think to myself "Onions, that could be so interesting in perfume". I'm wondering which part of the "onion smell" it is that most of you are hoping to work with. The fresh cut smell? The smell during a sauté? Caramelized? I always thought that the smell that is left on your hands after you cut onions is such an interesting one. To me, it repels as much as it attracts in a very strange, compulsive way.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    After reading a bit about the scent of oceans I was wondering if I could use either of these as an alternative to DMS for a longer lived salty note. Don't have neither, so I can't really tell right now. Anyone has any thoughts or experience? Thanks.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    It's one and a half years after we last had a thought about it. Maybe just try ambergris.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Doesn't the real thing cost a fortune? Does it have that oceanic impression? I was trying to find GC of Ambergris to find what could give it an edge.
    I also thought that if I could find a DIY flavoring shop, I would find various sulfides there, but no luck so far..

  17. #17

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    I carry a little garlic e.o. but I found it so repugnant that it was unusable in any type of natural perfume. This coming from a mama who eats durian weekly (so I am not easily offended by sulfur compounds in food). I have to store garlic e.o. in glass inside glass and even then I still smell it. Garlic doesn't lend itself to nice distillation - only brings out the harsh compounds.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Quote Originally Posted by otocione View Post
    For the record, the reason why we feel so heavily the odour of these sulfur containing molecules is that our nose evolution brought it to be able to detect very tiny amounts of hydrogen sulfide, a highly toxic gas, which is somehow a very close "relative" of the organic sulfides found in onion and garlic. Actually we could be able to detect it down to a concentration of 1 ppb (parts per billion, like 1 mg of it every 1000 kg of normal air) even though the first damages come at concentrations about 50000 times higher.
    Another reason we smell sulfur is simply that humans contain a lot of sulfur, and so we evolved accordingly to relate to it. It's one of the most plentiful minerals which make up the human body, after carbon. This fact, to me, helps make the case for the usefulness of sulfur. It's a similar logic to using a bit of leaf alcohol with vegetal smells. A perfume on a human body, in some part, imitates a human's smell and attempts to improve it (hence the use of musks, etc.). At least, that's my own perspective, rather than view a perfume as an independent smell, practically speaking.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    But have you ever applied this theory in your formulae? (Except for DMS).. From what people are saying, doesn't sound like the specific sulfides in onion and garlic are useful.
    Besides that, it seems hard sourcing them.. Why don't flavorists have a place to buy raw stuff?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    I have used tiny amounts of Onion Oil in fruit notes, especially Strawberry. As I wrote in post no.5 (in 2012) sharp sulphurous smells can be ted to enhance other notes. Asafoetida (gone off Garlic) is often used as a booster for Galbanum. I have used Onion as a booster for Strawberry (specifically the green sour part, not the sticky fruity part). It is a question of getting the dilution right.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Sorry for missing that :\
    Thanks! Now you've piqued my curiosity. Will add those to the never ending air train carrying funky smelling flasks to my home.

    Will 0.1% be too much from your experience? (I usually work with everything at 10%, so a 0.01% dilution will be 0.1% of the concentrate)

  22. #22

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    0.01% or even 0.001%. You should be able to judge how strong the Onion oil is by smelling it

  23. #23

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Smelling? What do you mean?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I have used tiny amounts of Onion Oil in fruit notes, especially Strawberry. As I wrote in post no.5 (in 2012) sharp sulphurous smells can be ted to enhance other notes. Asafoetida (gone off Garlic) is often used as a booster for Galbanum. I have used Onion as a booster for Strawberry (specifically the green sour part, not the sticky fruity part). It is a question of getting the dilution right.
    David, now that's interesting about the asafoetida. I haven't worked with mine because it hasn't called me to use it in formula. I also had the idea of letting it age some. I'm pretty big on aging certain oils.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    In the process of learning about the sulfuric notes. Sulfurol is often used, as is dimethyl sulfide, as David says.
    The notes seem to be used for almost anythihg, and the uses seem to overlap.

    These notes are a bit hard to find for sale, which is another issue. I want to learn more about all these.

    I wonder how many natural smells DON'T have a sulfur note buried deep in there somewhere.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    There are only a few sulphurous chemicals used in Perfumery; many, many more used by Flavourists. A lot of sulphur chemicals in nature. Dimethyl Sulphide, Thiolimonene, Thiogeraniol,Thioterpineol, Oxathiane, Sulphurol and Sulphuryl Acetate are the ones I know of from Perfumery.

    No idea what effects, if any, ageing Asafoetida will have. A very small amount goes a very long way.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Thanks, David.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    As a former flavorist I think the best thing for this note is using DMS itself. Is that allowed in perfumery? It can be used in all of those application David mentioned...
    Christine

  29. #29

    Default Re: Onion and/or garlic

    Dimethyl Sulphide is used in Perfumery, and is found in Geranium Oil. It is invaluable to re-create a Lychee accord, but useful in other applications. The other sulphur chemicals I mentioned earlier also are very useful.

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