Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    Basenotes Junkie anomie et ivoire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    life on the mississippi
    Posts
    544
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    This being my first autumn as a perfume-wearer, I am already awed at the difference season/weather makes. Perfumed lotions become very appealing to enrich now more wearable intense scents. With the winter months coming, here are some burning emollient questions!:


    1.How do you use your scented lotions: alone or with the matching perfume or with contrasting scents?
    2. Which brands or specific scents have you found very good, "true to perfume?"
    3. Were any perfumed lotions a disappointment and why?
    4. Why are so many perfumed lotions glittery or shimmery? Does this also bother anyone else?
    5. For any expensive or difficult to find scents: is the lotion almost as good as the fragrance as a stand-alone or replacement?
    6. Do you know of any perfumed lotion or creme that is better than wearing the perfume?


    Some specific lotions about which I am curious:
    Theorema (it's glittery, ack)
    original Fendi
    Guerlain body cremes
    Piguet lotions

    "Now it places the lotion in the basket."

  2. #2

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    1. No mixing. If you are using good perfumes to start with, you can only make things worse.

    2. The best I've found is Piguet Bandit. Almost as dark and butch as the perfume. Long lasting too, and there's a great shower gel as well. It can be had very cheaply on ebay. I have not tried the other Piguet lotions, but if they are as faithful and good as this, they should be good buys.
    I also like some of the Le Labo, especially oud. The Oud lotion is more the dirty part of the frag; quite long lasting too. Of course you need to like dirty musks. Too bad they don't do a patch lotion (they do an oil, it's the fantastic drydown of the frag). I also have their iris, which is not particularly long lasting, but has at times created an interesting effect post-swimming pool which I have described elsewhere.
    I have not tried the Ormonde Jayne, but I have tried their oils and they are very good. If the creams are as good as the oils, it could be worth to look into them.

    3- Knize Ten. The cream is a light plain leather, sort of Tuscan leather lite - nothing like the butch perfume. (The shower gel is even less faithful, a nice but undistinguished soapy floral). The Amouage creams I tried in store didn't impress me much, given their cost, but that was a quick test which may not be indicative (the Gold man shower gel is wonderful though, not as huge as the perfume, but a wonderful incensy floral nonetheless).

    5-6 never as good. The perfume is always richer, long lasting etc. Still, they are sometimes good purchases that give an impression of the $$$ perfume. I have bought a few myself and have been happy. Given the price of Theorema, the lotion seems a good idea (I have not purchased it though, so I wouldn't know the specific). Bath oils are a different story, but then, good vintage bath oils cost (much) more than the perfume. Which brings me to the question: why do I seem to be the only one who collects bath oils as well?

    On the topic of creams, I would like to mention the face cream and the hand cream for men by Farmacia SS Annunziata (I have not tried their for woman). One is a very rich mossy, the other hay coumarinic. They do not correspond to any perfume, but they are lovely (more so than their scents, I'd say).

    cacio

  3. #3
    Basenotes Junkie anomie et ivoire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    life on the mississippi
    Posts
    544
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Wow, thanks cacio! Very valuable tips.

    In my limited experience, every vintage Dior, YSL, and Guerlain lotion/creme has been very, very good (mostly borrowed from relatives, friends). Especially the Poisons. Lotion is usually not very exciting unless layered with the matching perfume while the body cremes seem to work as excellent stand-ins for closer to the skin but still fairly rich scent.

    Ditto on bath oil of course, but the stuff often looks very scary and the vintage bottles are often smeared due to oiliness, even if unused. I'd love to collect it more but so far have only Rive Gauche, L'Air du Temps, Youth Dew, and Opium. All so incredible in oil form, but that is well-known. Of course there's also the dry oil sprays out there, which I don't really understand yet. Anyone have experience with these modern body oils?

  4. #4
    Super Member Scent-imental's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    261
    Blog Entries
    21

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I always give creams and lotions away, my mother loves them. I hate the feeling of them on my skin, and the same with bubbles in my bath. It makes me shudder. I only use moisturiser when my skin gets so dry that its itchy, but i hate, hate, hate the feeling of it. I just realised quite how weird i really am.
    A quick update - those dry oil body sprays, i used to get the Avon Skin So Soft ones, and i loved them, they were non-greasy. I get to Alaska, and i find out they use it here to keep the mosquitoes at bay.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Thoughts of vintage Heure bleue body cream ...

    Re dry oils, not a big experience here either, but my understanding is that they are simply alternatives to lotions - they get absorbed and don't stain clothes. I agree with you that they're kind of pointless relative to a lotion, though I have not compared their moisturizing action relative to that of a lotion. (The other use, which I am not interested in, is hair - I was just reading a book that talked about the use of scented bear fat for hair during Victorian times, and the corresponding appearance of lace doilies on sofas and high chairs. Dry oils seem a technological improvement for the purpose). I do own Dyptique voile satin, a nice smooth jasmine.

    Real oils work really well to moisturize and protect the skin, but they remain oily on the skin for a long time and stain. Still, occasionally I do use almond or similar oils with a few drops of perfumed bath oil for extended protection and moisturization. They would work very well for massage too, but so far, regrettably, I have not found anybody who wanted to perform. Still, the thought of a nice massage with oud 27 oil is nice ...

    cacio

  6. #6

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I actually wear unscented lotions(L'Occitane or Elemis), but for something amazing and instead of wearing the actual perfume.

    Then(we are talking cream not the lotion)
    Opium
    Angel
    Feminite du Bois(now discontinued but totally fabulous)

    These three have amazing longevity and sillage and really don't need extra such as wearing the perfume on top.
    DONNA

  7. #7

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I'm a huge fan of lotions and creams ...if I love a perfume and it comes in a cream, then chances are I have it.

    The most beautifully perfumed and luxuriously rich creams come from Chanel - my favorites are Coco and No5, but as has apparently been your experience with lotions, I find theirs to be thin and watery - nothing to write home about. But you can get away with wearing the creams sans perfume and you'll be beautifully smelly for hours, but you won't project much, which is one of the reasons that this is my favorite way to perfume myself before bed (Lorenzo Villoresi's Teint de Neige cream is perfect for bedtime, btw.) I also have the incredible No5 bath oil, but I generally use it aprés le bain for extra moisturizing, and the sublime fragrance can stand on its own ...although I rarely let it, lol!

    But donna mentioned Angel, and the old "Celestial" Body Cream (as opposed to the newer "Perfuming" Body Cream) is possibly the most divine body cream I've ever come across, and the scent is simply the best form of Angel there is. It sort of makes a glutton of me - it's so amazingly delicious-smelling and feeling that I'm always tempted to just pick up gobs in my hands and smear it all over my face and mouth, hehe. Seriously, if you love Angel and you ever see this cream, don't hesitate, just buy it!

    I'll use various vanilla-based lotions and creams for some fragrances that don't offer their own, and lightly rose-scented lotions are good with rose perfumes, obviously. Oh, the Frederic Malle body butters (I've tried them in Lipstick Rose and Iris Poudre) are outrageously wonderful, but the way I go through creams makes them rather cost-prohibitive ...then again, they're so intensely fragranced that you really don't need perfume with them, and you don't need to slather much of it on to be quite perfumed.

    I completely disagree with cacio's rules about mixing. I say there are no rules - it's just perfume, and playing with different fragrance pairings via cream + perfume is one of my favorite ways to layer ...this technique seems to work particularly well within the same house. EL's Youth Dew cream layers very well with anything spicy, and can cut the sweetness of anything you might find too sweet, like Spellbound. But if there's a scent that reminds you of another, sometimes they can work well this way even if they're not related. I recently discovered that Boucheron's Trouble has something in common with Dior Addict, but since I don't have Addict cream or lotion, I tried the edp with some Trouble lotion (which is okay but thin and comes in an annoying bottle) and the combination is fabulous! I won't be buying the Trouble lotion again though since it's not great on its own. I have good unscented creams that I'd prefer to a matching but inferior product.

    Guerlain has fabulous creams too, when you can find them. I currently have my heart set on a big tub of Shalimar Parfum Initial body cream, yet I've never even set eyes on it ...I'm not even sure it's available. Oh, Annick Goutals creams are also highly-perfumed and posh - I've had them in Songes and Eau de Charlotte and I highly recommend them.
    Last edited by Evangeline; 8th October 2012 at 08:54 PM.
    Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. ..Carl Sagan

  8. #8

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Agree about the Annick Goutal creams. I used to wear Gardenia Passion, and on me, the creme smelled heavenly whereas the perfume smelled "meh"

  9. #9
    Basenotes Plus
    knit at nite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    CA, Central Coast
    Posts
    4,791

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    The doilies were called antimacassars because of the popularity of one Brand of hair oil in particular- Macassar oil.



    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    Thoughts of vintage Heure bleue body cream ...

    Re dry oils, not a big experience here either, but my understanding is that they are simply alternatives to lotions - they get absorbed and don't stain clothes. I agree with you that they're kind of pointless relative to a lotion, though I have not compared their moisturizing action relative to that of a lotion. (The other use, which I am not interested in, is hair - I was just reading a book that talked about the use of scented bear fat for hair during Victorian times, and the corresponding appearance of lace doilies on sofas and high chairs. Dry oils seem a technological improvement for the purpose). I do own Dyptique voile satin, a nice smooth jasmine.

    Real oils work really well to moisturize and protect the skin, but they remain oily on the skin for a long time and stain. Still, occasionally I do use almond or similar oils with a few drops of perfumed bath oil for extended protection and moisturization. They would work very well for massage too, but so far, regrettably, I have not found anybody who wanted to perform. Still, the thought of a nice massage with oud 27 oil is nice ...

    cacio
    A Scent Rescuer
    Every great perfume deserves a good home

  10. #10

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Indeed, as per the book, "said to be made of plants native to Macassar in Indonesia, it claimed to promote the most luxuriant tresses, while preventing everything from baldness to greyness." Also interesting, there was no shampoo back then, hair was cleaned with regular soap (but evidently not often enough) and shampooing meant massaging (body, hair, what else) with Indian oils.

    cacio

  11. #11
    mihailo
    Guest

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Fracas body lotion is hallucinogenic. My skin feels like silk. The smell is maybe even better than edp.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Yes Celestial Body Cream is the one I still have.
    DONNA

  13. #13

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I forgot to mention Aromatics Elixir cream, which is another one that's very highly-perfumed, but it's softer and gentler and much easier to wear than the original perfume spray, and the patchouli is very subdued ...although it still has a lot of presence, even a bit of projection. I find that the cream smells exactly like the Velvet Sheer as well as the Perfumer's Reserve, significantly more so than the perfume spray. It's very nice, but actually even more as a fragrance than as a moisturizer - it's really almost too perfumed to slather all over, but I'd recommend this particularly to anyone who likes AR but finds the spray too strong, especially the assertive patchouli.

    They have a Body Smoother too which is very nice but not quite as rich or luxuriously-perfumed as the cream, but that very well might be a selling point in this case ...although I still don't think I'd moisturize from head to toe with it. AR is just some potent stuff, even in creamy moderation.
    Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. ..Carl Sagan

  14. #14
    IngaMi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Red Deer area in Alberta
    Posts
    568

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeline View Post
    I'm a huge fan of lotions and creams ...if I love a perfume and it comes in a cream, then chances are I have it.

    Evangeline, you must have the most luxurious collection of perfumes and lotions! Just makes me want to feel "southern" and get a good collection of creams and lotions. I don't have nearly enough! I adore your posts.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by IngaMi View Post
    Evangeline, you must have the most luxurious collection of perfumes and lotions! Just makes me want to feel "southern" and get a good collection of creams and lotions. I don't have nearly enough! I adore your posts.
    Oh my goodness IngaMi - you're sweet!! Thank you so much!

    Honestly, I do have a good assortment of creams, but they really aren't as readily available as I'd like, and many brands just don't make them. And of course some of them can be outrageously priced, Chanel for instance, but they're really the cream of the crop (hehe) and I don't use these every day. There are body creams, and then there are body creams, see.

    But even in this humidity one can have dry skin, so I really do use something smooth and smelly after every bath or shower and then some, so I don't feel too grabby by just buying things I don't use just to have them ...which btw, I only say to keep me from doing it - it can easily turn into a compulsion since they are just such a luxurious and simply heavenly indulgence, lol!
    Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. ..Carl Sagan

  16. #16

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Back in the day when I wore one or two signature scents I often used the body cream or lotion version of the scent, especially in winter. It was a very sensuous, indulgent way to wear the fragrance. Guerlain's and YSL's were my favorites, in terms of quality, and exactness of the fragrance. They were strongly scented and lasted for ages. I suppose that is still true but I don't know. Annick Goutal does have nice lotions/creams. So does Jo Malone, and I use Jo Malone Red Roses bath oil as a body oil on shower damp skin. I use it on my arms and legs, which are the driest parts of my body and I don't find it to be too greasy. My skin sucks it right in. It scents the entire upper floor of our house when I do that. I used to like those dry oil body sprays. I wasn't sure they were even being made anymore.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lilybelle View Post
    I used to like those dry oil body sprays. I wasn't sure they were even being made anymore.
    I agree, dry oils are wonderful, but they're really hard to come by. One of my very favorites is still around though, it's Avon's original scent Skin So Soft and I've loved this herbal, outdoorsy fresh scent since I was a little kid. I was amazed and overjoyed to discover years later that Balenciaga's Prélude is a very good match for it, and they're wonderful together! But Avon has dry oils in their entire Skin So Soft range now, and they all smell pretty great, and they're very affordable ...like, about $5 affordable.

    Sorry anomie, I don't mean to bogart your thread ...I seem to have a lot to say on the subject.
    Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. ..Carl Sagan

  18. #18

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I didn't know Avon made dry oils, Evangeline. I will check those out. Do you remember Skin So Soft's reputation as a mosquito repellent? I don't think it worked for me, though. If you go to little country stores you can still see Avon Skin So Soft sold with beer, bait and ice.

  19. #19
    Lifelong Sniffaholic
    30 Roses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    11,380
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I have an assortment of floral scented body creams by Perlier that I apply at bedtime when my skin is only slightly dry-- occasionally in spring or fall, or in summer if the AC has dried my skin.

    I own several lotions and creams by Crabtree & Evelyn and Provence Santé with their matching perfumes. Even so, I don't layer them very often! I'll tend to use the creams solo during the day, when I want a lighter version of the scent.

    These perfumed creams and lotions are not as generally useful to me as the mildly-scented lotion I use regularly in winter, which doesn't clash with my SotD. It also comes in an unscented version. (Beyond Belief Nourishing Lotion with Grape Seed Extract, see here: http://www.sallybeauty.com/nourishin...efault,pd.html)

    As to dry oils, I have a linden scented one that I sometimes use immediately after stepping out of the shower, while my skin is still damp. Any oil will do for this purpose; it seals in the moisture. Dry oil applied to dry skin is less beneficial.


  20. #20
    Basenotes Junkie anomie et ivoire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    life on the mississippi
    Posts
    544
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Evangeline- bogarting? More like Bacalling! You're bringing the elegance and knowledge. Thank you!

    I had forgotten that this type of layering--multiple fragranced products--is considered sort of Southern. And on the dry body oils: they seem to be sold as a summer type product by several brands these days. I've seen various Nina Ricci, Clarins, Boucheron, and a few others still on the market. All were somewhat expensive and smaller novelty products. The generously sized dry oils seem a lovely thing of the past now too luxe to survive, much like all of these richer creams and powders.

    As for the Aromatics Elixir body cream, I have one from just before reformulation and it's *very* strong on a bitter-rough note (as opposed to the spray's sour warmth) TMN to the point that I lose my appetite from wearing the stuff. It's not disgusting or awful, just quite potent. I find it better applied very lightly to the legs or ankles and allowed to drift upward. Conversely, the spray is not overpowering to me. Maybe it has to do with oily skin type vs. dry. Or I do suspect the cream could be going off. Some lotions and creams do seem to go bad fairly quickly.
    Last edited by anomie et ivoire; 9th October 2012 at 06:17 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Yes, use 'em or lose 'em. They should keep well in a cool, dark place, but not forever.

    Ok, here's something eww...I bought a Chantilly lot on ebay because one of the small spray mist bottles had the label on the bottom "made in France" - and that's the one I like - plus there was another spray bottle, but they came with two large bottles of Chantilly lotion and two roll-on deodorants so ancient that I have not yet worked up the courage to even sniff them. And it appears that one of the deodorants leaked and dried (who knows how many decades ago). They really creep me out. I should have told the seller to just leave them out. So now I have this really old Chantilly stuff hiding in the bottom of the closet. I can only throw it out when the husband is away or he will get angry with me for buying stuff on ebay that I then throw away. It is crazy, seen through his eyes, but I just wanted that one little bottle that came in the lot, and I will jump through hoops for those.
    Last edited by lilybelle; 9th October 2012 at 08:32 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Lol, "eww" is right lilybelle! Old lotions are creepy - I'd throw them out, too. But old is one thing - what I can't get over is that people actually try to sell "gently used" creams on eBay ...used creams, that you reach into with your fingers! Who knows what other sorts of creepy crawlies might be lurking in there with the cream?? No thank you! But congratulations on the French Chantilly - I know how you love that one!


    Quote Originally Posted by anomie et ivoire View Post
    ...I had forgotten that this type of layering--multiple fragranced products--is considered sort of Southern.
    Is that considered a Southern thing? Well shut my mouth, I didn't know that!
    Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. ..Carl Sagan

  23. #23

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeline View Post
    Lol, "eww" is right lilybelle! Old lotions are creepy - I'd throw them out, too. But old is one thing - what I can't get over is that people actually try to sell "gently used" creams on eBay ...used creams, that you reach into with your fingers! Who knows what other sorts of creepy crawlies might be lurking in there with the cream?? No thank you! But congratulations on the French Chantilly - I know how you love that one!

    Is that considered a Southern thing? Well shut my mouth, I didn't know that!
    Blergh!

    I didn't know layering multiple products is a particularly southern thing either. Can a non-southern person explain? Not trying to start anything, I just find that interesting.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Knit at Nite and I encountered the Byredo lotions at Barneys in Vegas - she purchased the lotion of Pulp. They seemed to have a very nice texture and good scent, as do the Malle lotions. I have not splurged on any of them, though. I have a mini bottle of the Le Labo Rose 31 lotion and it is very intensely scented - you only need a little bit. I go through lots of lotion so I am more inclined to use unscented Lubriderm.

  25. #25
    Basenotes Junkie anomie et ivoire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    life on the mississippi
    Posts
    544
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lilybelle View Post
    Blergh!

    I didn't know layering multiple products is a particularly southern thing either. Can a non-southern person explain? Not trying to start anything, I just find that interesting.
    In several books I've read set in the South, these types of multi-step glamour rituals could be seen as part and parcel of the greater care paid to grooming and dress in the Southern US--where church dress and nice clothes to go out to eat are a little bit more expected-- than in the North. In an interview about the perfume she was launching, Nicole Richie (ho-hum) mentioned her mom being a Southerner and layering creams and powders to have a more noticeable scent. My few true Southern relatives always did this, as they claimed it made the scent last longer in the hot weather (hmm?), so I sort of went along with the idea of it being a Southern belle decadence thing, pride of grooming, and the greater extroversion of Southern culture. Not necessarily true or founded on much!

  26. #26

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    Well...I suppose it's a romantic idea of the south, but there are plenty of northern, western and eastern belles as well who are totally into the whole ritual of beauty. I can see what you mean, though, A&I.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Perfumed Lotions (Creams ,Cremes, Smoothers, etc.)

    I use the solid Lotion bars that LUSHUSA.com makes.
    All of Lush's products are just AWESOME! Plus it's a little more "manly" than the smelly tube or pump lotion.

Similar Threads

  1. Anti-aging Creams and Lotions for Men
    By LuciusVorenus in forum Men's Grooming
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 22nd September 2011, 07:53 AM
  2. amouage body creams
    By chaplain in forum Female Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 30th September 2010, 06:49 PM
  3. Creams/Oils
    By Cornflake in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 24th August 2010, 02:26 AM
  4. Best under eye creams (UK)?
    By WillC in forum Men's Grooming
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 30th January 2009, 03:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •