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  1. #1

    Default perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Hi,

    Can anyone suggest some perfume formulas that would use perfumers alcohol, glycerin, distilled water and the fragrance oils?

    I want to use between 10-15% fragrance oil

    Thanks so much!

  2. #2

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Why would you want to put glycerine in it? You will create all sorts of solubility problems and make your fragrance sticky on the skin to boot.

    Distilled water is also not necessary but with 10-15% fragrance materials you could probably get away with 5% water to make it a bit cheaper to produce, depending on what's in your perfumer's alcohol. If your perfumers alcohol contains isopropyl myristate I wouldn't risk adding water as it's likely to go cloudy.

    Also be aware that you need to use pure or near-pure fragrance materials for this to work - pure essential oils and aroma chemicals rather than the sort of fragrance oil often sold for use directly and confusingly often called 'pure perfume oil' by those who sell it - it's really at best 30% fragrance materials, with the rest some kind of carrier oil that may or may not dissolve in ethanol.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    My fragrance oil supplier suggested the following percentages for the perfume I am planning to create:
    Fragrance: 10.48%
    Alcohol SDA-40: 79.00%
    DiH2O: 10.52%

    And I was reading the mixed reviews of adding dipropylene glycol or a glycerin for the scent to last longer on the skin. It seems the consensus on basenotes is that dipropylene glycol with do nothing to help with scent lasting on skin???? but with many online searches the consensus is that it does help with staying power....really confused on this one.

    My fragrance oil is pure and does not have any additives or carrier oils added to it.

    Thanks so much for any advice.

  4. #4

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Oh Gawd, this again. I don't care what anyone has read, all I know is what I have experienced in over 30 years as a perfumer. To my knowledge DPG is not used as a fixative in Perfumery.

    If you are unsure, why not experiment yourself? Take two samples of your fragrance mix; to one add some DPG (about 10.0%), leave the other alone. Dip your two samples and compare strength, and change in odour over a couple of hours. Should you wish, extend this over a couple of days. Smell, at first, every 30 minutes, then after an hour or so, smell every hour. Make notes, and come to a conclusion.

  5. #5

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Maybe we should go back to basics:

    Perfume is a mixture of a fragrance compound and alcohol. You don't add a fixative afterwards to a fragrance, the fragrance compound needs to have enough fixative power of its own. So in general: don't add glycerin, DPG, DEP, IPM, glucose syrup, BB, Herculyn D or whatever substance to your perfume as a fixative, purchase a good fragrance compound instead.

    When you paint the walls and the rain whashes the paint down you could spray a fixative (like a lacquer) over the wall, it might help, will affect the appearance, but it would be much better to use water resistant paint in the first place.

  6. #6

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    janmeut, you are exactly right. Thank you.

  7. #7

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Totally agree with Jan and David;
    however, there seems to be one "additive" called Glucam P-20, which acts as a post-added fixative for top/middle notes:

    Quote PerfumersApprentice: "This is a material used for the fixing of top and some middle notes. For example, experiments performed in house show that Sweet Orange essential oil (one of the most fleeting of scents- usually lasting only two minutes on the skin) was increased to last half an hour or more on the skin.
    Use up to 5% of your fragrance formula concentrate, but experiment! Using too much will "flatten" a fragrance."


    Website: http://www.lubrizol.com/PersonalCare...lucamP-20.html

  8. #8
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Thanks JSPARLA for reminding peeps of this one.

    And Still, adding glycerin is supremely BAD.
    but, "It's on the Internet, so it must be true!"

    WRONG!!!
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  9. #9

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by jsparla View Post
    Totally agree with Jan and David;
    however, there seems to be one "additive" called Glucam P-20, which acts as a post-added fixative for top/middle notes:

    Quote PerfumersApprentice: "This is a material used for the fixing of top and some middle notes. For example, experiments performed in house show that Sweet Orange essential oil (one of the most fleeting of scents- usually lasting only two minutes on the skin) was increased to last half an hour or more on the skin.
    Use up to 5% of your fragrance formula concentrate, but experiment! Using too much will "flatten" a fragrance."


    Website: http://www.lubrizol.com/PersonalCare...lucamP-20.html
    It's certainly true that Glucam P-20 works as a fixative and is more-or-less odourless, but I still don't recommend adding separately - if I use it I build it in to the fragrance formula - just like benzyl benzoate, which is also an almost odourless fixative.

    Any fixative will have a differential impact on some components of the fragrance - so you may need to adjust other parts of the formula to compensate for it's effect - if you add some at the end the resulting fragrance will likely have more lasting power but may not smell the same as it did before you added it, even though the additive itself is odourless.

    I realise that's counter-intuitive but is essentially the same thing that David and others have describe in relation to materials they are anosmic to: even if you can't smell Benzyl salicylate on it's own you can detect the smoothing effect it has when it's in the blend. Hope that helps.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  10. #10

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I would like to find a recipe for Dior's Tendre Poison?

  11. #11

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Ok, so I'll hijack this one as well - since I'm having some trouble with my supposed-to-be base notes..
    Thought of trying those almost-odorless fixatives, but I don't have any.. I know benzyl-benzoate,
    benzyl-cinnamate and cynnamyl-cinnamate.. Is there anything else I should consider buying to fix
    things?
    Thanks

  12. #12

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Ok, so I'll hijack this one as well - since I'm having some trouble with my supposed-to-be base notes..
    Thought of trying those almost-odorless fixatives, but I don't have any.. I know benzyl-benzoate,
    benzyl-cinnamate and cynnamyl-cinnamate.. Is there anything else I should consider buying to fix
    things?
    Thanks
    A couple of much-underrated fixatives with low-odour that you could consider are IPM and Hedione: they both have a wide-spectrum fixative effect and IPM is as good as odourless, while Hedione has a distinct odour it is easily pushed in the direction of other things itís used with.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  13. #13

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    ...while Hedione has a distinct odour it is easily pushed in the direction of other things itís used with.
    Is that what is meant when its called an exalter? I assumed it meant it provided a kind of harmony...making other notes "better" without taking over. Is that sort-of correct?

    I've been wanting to try using it, but was hesitant that it might really add jasmine as a note that might overpower (nothing's wrong with jasmine per se, just not where it's not needed).
    Last edited by Meriem; 18th March 2014 at 05:44 PM. Reason: HTML fix

  14. #14

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Meriem View Post
    Is that what is meant when its called an exalter? I assumed it meant it provided a kind of harmony...making other notes "better" without taking over. Is that sort-of correct?

    I've been wanting to try using it, but was hesitant that it might really add jasmine as a note that might overpower (nothing's wrong with jasmine per se, just not where it's not needed).
    Yes thatís pretty much it - exalt also often implies an improvement in diffusion and radiant certainly carries that implication.

    I wouldnít worry about introducing jasmine with hedione: thereís a good reason itís in 80% of the perfumes on the market, you can use it with almost anything and itís especially effective with citrus as well as many other florals besides jasmine. You can use anywhere from 1-50% of the formula too so well worth experimenting with.

    For even bigger impact you could also try Hedione HC, which I especially like in more masculine compositions.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  15. #15

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Thanks for explaining further. This is clearly something I do need to experiment with.

  16. #16

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Hmm.. too scared to use hedione - it always takes things to unexpected places..
    I'm a little confused about IPM - I thought that the bottom line was not to think of
    it as a fixative..
    Anyhow, I just ordered some cinnamyl cinnamate from Adam.. And some ambermax

  17. #17

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Hmm.. too scared to use hedione - it always takes things to unexpected places..
    I'm a little confused about IPM - I thought that the bottom line was not to think of
    it as a fixative..
    Anyhow, I just ordered some cinnamyl cinnamate from Adam.. And some ambermax
    I thought I'd let you know I've tried the hedione in different amounts in both things I'm trying to make, and I think (so far...) it's nothing to be too frightened of. When I opened it, I recognized it immediately from umpteen products (especially from a coworker's perfume, which must have it as a major note); it really does have a distinct scent (though, curiously, a friend who sniffed it couldn't actually smell it at all.) But when I added it, I really couldn't smell it in either mix -- except that the other elements really were immediately fattened up a bit. I think it's what's making the citrus-based mix I'm making, where I used a bit more of it, smell so juicy. We'll see, though, in a few weeks after it's all settled and blended.

  18. #18

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    del
    Last edited by Nadia76; 20th January 2015 at 12:26 PM.

  19. #19
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    So, We all say: "Don't Use Glycerin in any Perfume". However I have no clue about glycerin based extracts.

    I'm not quite sure how to interpret that comment, "they... are less harsh on the skin for allergic people."

    Allergies come in many shapes and sizes, and using all natural ingredients is actually the opposite to me of what it seems like you are trying to do... The more the molecules, the more chance of allergic reactions. Natural have more molecules that synthetics, and there seems to have the assumption that synthetics are bad/evil, and naturals are good and sweet. This is not accurate in either case.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  20. #20

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    del
    Last edited by Nadia76; 20th January 2015 at 12:25 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Dear Mr. Chris Bartlett,
    Could you please give me an advice or correct my formulas in making perfume
    100 ml perfume bottle:

    70% ethanol (95) {medical}
    20% essential oil
    5% distilled water
    2% propylene glycol
    2% benzyl benzoate
    1% glycerin

    what are the accurate percentage of benzyl benzoate and propylene glycol according the essential oil
    if its better to omit glycerin ... and add any other material such as coumarin or ...

    looking forward to hearing from you

    Regards,
    Last edited by Maher_AlKhouja; 28th September 2014 at 12:39 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I suggest you read the stickies first. All this information you require from Chris is written in them already.

  23. #23

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    where are the (stickies) pages please?
    thanx alot for your kind reply

    ohh ..OK just reading them
    Last edited by Maher_AlKhouja; 28th September 2014 at 01:32 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Dear Chris and Mumsy,

    I've read the stickies , found that using glycerin is not good
    but what about other materials and their ratios to 20 ml essential oil

    100 ml bottle :

    70% ethanol (95) {medical} [or 75% if I don't use distilled water]
    20% essential oil
    5% distilled water [or not]
    3% propylene glycol [what about this ratio]
    2% benzyl benzoate [what about this ratio]

    what are the accurate ratios of benzyl benzoate and propylene glycol ?are they according the essential oil or the final product


    looking forward to hearing from you

    Regards,

  25. #25

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I think that there are too many variables to answer you in such a direct fashion.

    I use perfumers alcohol and the perfume material only. Do you have a reason to want to use these other things? I suggest a lot of reading and typing in all your questions in the search box. There are many reasons to use other substances and you need to know why you are doing so.

    Type in each ingredient to the search box and research what the reason for using it is. There is no overall standard formula as such. Not that I'm aware of anyway.

  26. #26

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    There aren't particular required ratios of propylene glycol: indeed propylene glycol is usually not used.

    Nor is there a particular required ratio or amount of benzyl benzoate: rather, often is not used at all, and if it is used, the amount is decided specifically for a reason, or in some cases may be a consequence of its presence as a diluent of other materials, rather than from following a rule or general amount.

    For some reason, not specifically meaning you, seasplash, but in general, from new posters there seems far more concern than needed for ingredients such as those, and not nearly enough on the actual aroma materials! Very much majoring on the minors or even the unnecessary.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 28th September 2014 at 08:45 PM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Could be people are looking for magic formulae to make something good.
    If that's what you're after, just use a lot of Hedione and Iso E

  28. #28

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Lol... the real road to a good perfumer is called lots of study and hard work... for many years too....

    It is very easy to make a smell.... It is making a really good perfume that is so elusive.

    Just for all those interested in the magic wand approach...... 'pouf'...... the secret formula just vanished into thin air....!

  29. #29

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Maher_AlKhouja View Post
    Dear Chris and Mumsy,

    I've read the stickies , found that using glycerin is not good
    but what about other materials and their ratios to 20 ml essential oil

    100 ml bottle :

    70% ethanol (95) {medical} [or 75% if I don't use distilled water]
    20% essential oil
    5% distilled water [or not]
    3% propylene glycol [what about this ratio]
    2% benzyl benzoate [what about this ratio]

    what are the accurate ratios of benzyl benzoate and propylene glycol ?are they according the essential oil or the final product


    looking forward to hearing from you

    Regards,
    I remember propylene glycol being one of my first great mistakes, horrible, sticky, flattening and useless in a perfume. Why not try something not that ambitious at first and then test your limits? Why not limit the essential oils to 10% and raise the ethanol to 90% and do that in a small bottle, just to experiment? Sounds like basic, can be challenging. Forget the water, focus on the perfume, the water won't provide fixation or moisturize the skin, you are using essential oils and you are killing them, if you use water. If your experiment turns out good, then you can implement the benzyl benzoate or another fixative. With essential oils, hedione would be a good solution, as already said, essential oils can really use the lightness hedione has. At least I wish I had used it back in the day as I was using essential oils extensively. Or use 1% Glucam P-20. That would be 89% ethanol, 1 % Glucam P-20 and 10% essential oils, Glucam is also good to the skin. But that would come after the experiment. 20% aroma is heavy, I think, heavy on the nose, on the skin and on the pocket, not a very economical approach. In my humble opinion: a. simplify b. use less.

  30. #30

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    But I read about perfumers alchol and let's say it contains ethanol and other matirials
    such as fixative (like benzyle benzoate),and co-solvent (like propylen glycol)
    I read about these two materials(PG & BB) in many sites;
    that they are used for what I said above.

    Is it good to add only BB as fixatve ,and if so what's its good ratio to essential oil
    Finally,I know that the esiest way to blend perfume is to use
    Bothe good EO and alchol only
    But I wase wondering about using or adding other materials to
    To make the final blend better.

    Thank you all for your kind reply
    Last edited by Maher_AlKhouja; 29th September 2014 at 10:10 PM.

  31. #31

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I recommend listening to who you choose to. Answers have been given here, and other statements have been made elsewhere. There's a choice to be made as to what source to accept. Some reasons have been given here already. You can also simply try both approaches yourself (with propylene glycol and without) and see what happens.

  32. #32

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    The only way to learn is to do it…. try with what you have and subject all our comments to personal experimentation and see. There is no particular right or wrong way, just your own personal best way.

  33. #33

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    There are ways, though, that will have about 100% of people trying one's product saying it's not as good, or is not good at all. If making entirely for oneself though that may not matter.

    Although, often when others point out what they experience as flaws in a formulation, it becomes a learning experience and after the learning, one may get more enjoyment from the redone material than from the old.

  34. #34
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Maher, we get a lot of people coming to us with previously "learned" knowledge. We have to beat it out of people for them to make better perfumes than whatever the heck they've learned in the past, from what we consider extremely questionable and ill-informed sources.

    Do what you want. We're not going to stop you or yell at you. But if you ask a question with bad previous information, expect to get contrarian information that YOU must filter and use appropriately.

    Your path of discovery is your own, not mine. Please, make as many mistakes as possible, to learn as much as possible.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  35. #35

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Sage advice, Paul, but why can't people understand that the ONLY solvent that should be used is ethanol? And adding water, glycerine and all sorts of other things is a complete waste of effort?

  36. #36

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Thank you all for your kind advice,
    I've already made some samples and let them rest about 20 days 10 in the freezer and 10 in the wardrobe
    1 2 3
    EO 20% 20% 20%
    BB 3% 2% 1%
    Glycerin 1.5% 1% 1%
    PG 1% 2% 1%
    water 5% 5% 5%
    Ethanol 95 69.5% 70% 72%

    all of these samples was good in both colour and sent as well
    but sample 1 lasts the longest then 2 then 3 on paper

    I'll do my best to do so and so with and without fixatives and co-solvents
    I appreciate your cooperation ,nice discussion and notes

    looking forward to hearing from you,

  37. #37

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Thank you all for your kind advice,
    I've already made some samples and let them rest about 20 days 10 in the freezer and 10 in the wardrobe
    Samples ratio:
    S1:
    EO 20 _ BB 3 _ Glycerin 1.5 _ PG 1 _ Water 5 _ Ethanol(95) 69.5
    S2:
    EO 20 _ BB 2 _ Glycerin 1 _ PG 2 _ Water 5 _ Ethanol(95) 70
    S3:
    EO 20 _ BB 1 _ Glycerin 1 _ PG 1 _ Water 5 _ Ethanol(95) 72

    all of these samples was good in both colour and sent as well
    but sample 1 lasts the longest then 2 then 3 on paper

    I'll do my best to do so and so with and without fixatives and co-solvents
    I appreciate your cooperation ,nice discussion and notes

    looking forward to hearing from you,
    Last edited by Maher_AlKhouja; 30th September 2014 at 01:08 PM.

  38. #38

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Thank you indeed Mr. Paul

    That's why am here asking experts specialists like you and the other persons at this forum ;
    to get the right answers and good advice

    Really appreciate that and happy to hear from you all

    Regards,
    Maher

  39. #39

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    OK.......
    lets get it straight....
    making a perfume is like making a car.speed and strength of car is already been made by the company.
    now you are paying for a 800 cc and would like to improve you car speed like 5000 cc?
    if you want to do so you have to re as amble the whole car.if you have skill to do that.DO IT.
    and if you think that you are not that smart.then get some money and get another car like Ferrari.
    strenght of a perfume is all about the quality of perfume oil.if perfume oil is made by an expert of mixing and blending then
    you ll have strenght silage and diffusion at the same time as its not possible for a kid who still have spots
    and if you would like to get all these things is just becose you add somthing like DPG IPM and BB then you are trying to convert you 800 cc car
    into 5000 cc

  40. #40
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    Wink Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by seasplash View Post
    Hi,

    Can anyone suggest some perfume formulas that would use perfumers alcohol, glycerin, distilled water and the fragrance oils?

    I want to use between 10-15% fragrance oil

    Thanks so much!
    I know I am new here and this is a dead thread but for those inquiring similarly and arriving here I have something important to point out-

    The misconception about glycerine as a carrier for perfume comes from it's use in the fragrance oil industry- few fragrance oils, that is the $5 for 10ml variety are uncut- and generally with a vegetable oil. Everyone should also know that soap makers frequently will cut/mix their fragrance oils with glycerine before adding them into the soap base. We often then test our mixes out in the glycerin base on ourselves but we do not actually believe we are making perfume! (well, maybe some, this is the internet after all!!)

    The use of alcohol for soap or wax is as bad an idea as glycerin is for the perfumer. Alcohol will have bad reactions with the mix, but not glycerin which blends well.

    Hope this helps to explain the plethora of misinformed information regarding the use of fragrances and glycerin.

    Next time just ask the questioner if they are making perfume or soap!!

  41. #41

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    To visitors, for what it's worth:

    I believe people can trust the information they get here because there are so many experienced, learned and even professional people posting here regularly or semi-regularly, that BS misinformation is typically exposed within hours or even minutes. I have been afraid to post things here a number of times, for fear of looking like a fool, and have had some significant number of mistakes exposed despite over 20 years learning about this stuff. Professionals have had mistakes exposed as such, and it's not unusual.

    I would trust the community here more than any random internet site, especially if there has been a significant amount of discussion of the topic here already. Misinformation about perfuming is quite common on the internet, generally.

    This is the preeminent perfume site on the world wide internet in a number of ways, in my opinion.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 20th January 2015 at 03:45 AM.

  42. #42

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    del
    Last edited by Nadia76; 20th January 2015 at 12:22 PM.

  43. #43

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    A very old thread indeed, which has been resurrected and modified to wander into the area of Soap Perfumery. May I make something clear? There is absolutely no difference at all between the way a fragrance designed for use is Soap is made and the way a fragrance is designed for use in any other application. Exactly the same ingredients are used, and the same restrictions apply. No fragrance that I know of uses Glycerin, because Glycerin is a lousy solvent and causes more harm than good. The only difference when creating a fragrance for a specific application, is the choice of ingredients. One selects for cost, stability, and functional suitability. Each fragrance application presents its own problems.

    Now there is nothing to stop you adding Glycerin to your Soap base, and Fragrance can then be added as well. Indeed one way of making a transparent soap base is to use Glycerin ( another way is to use Ethanol). But do not ever put Glycerin into your Fragrance concentrate; you will be asking for trouble. OK?

  44. #44
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Have you ever added alcohol or fragrances containing alcohol to soap?

  45. #45

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Personally no; why would I? The best solvent for a Soap fragrance is DPG. I do know that one way of preparing transparent soap involves the use of ethanol, but that has nothing to do with creating a Soap fragrance. Indeed perfuming a transparent Soap, is slightly harder than perfuming a standard soap base.

  46. #46

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    To visitors, for what it's worth:

    I believe people can trust the information they get here because there are so many experienced, learned and even professional people posting here regularly or semi-regularly, that BS misinformation is typically exposed within hours or even minutes. I have been afraid to post things here a number of times, for fear of looking like a fool, and have had some significant number of mistakes exposed despite over 20 years learning about this stuff. Professionals have had mistakes exposed as such, and it's not unusual.

    I would trust the community here more than any random internet site, especially if there has been a significant amount of discussion of the topic here already. Misinformation about perfuming is quite common on the internet, generally.

    This is the preeminent perfume site on the world wide internet in a number of ways, in my opinion.
    Please never be frightened of posting on here and seeming foolish; if you are genuine in your opinions that will be obvious. Personally, if I disagree with something I will say so. I think I have a pretty good BS detector, and will use it. If I know something to be wrong I will point it out. But I will never regard a genuine person as a fool, nor will I be unpleasant in my criticism (hem hem).

  47. #47

    Thumbs up Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Please never be frightened of posting on here and seeming foolish; if you are genuine in your opinions that will be obvious. Personally, if I disagree with something I will say so. I think I have a pretty good BS detector, and will use it. If I know something to be wrong I will point it out. But I will never regard a genuine person as a fool, nor will I be unpleasant in my criticism (hem hem).
    Right. Yeah, people who want to learn should never hesitate to ask questions or relate their experiences. And if they are genuine then people are typically more than kind and helpful.

    I am struck in particular that there was much less "secrecy" here than I anticipated, contrary to the stereotype. You just witness these threads with a tremendous outpouring of information that you would be very hard pressed to find in any book. It's almost too bad perfuming is such a niche interest, because this site is in some ways a great model for other sites, except such other sites don't really exist (not to say that related sites such as Chris' don't have some elements and value for what they are also).

    There is a little bit of extra responsibility if you like to help others, because you don't want to misguide them. I like to help others, based on previous experience/learning. And yet, because there are areas I am very much learning about as well, there is sometimes some nervousness based on that. So far I haven't been attacked too much for trying to help innapropriately. But I think most people here are intelligent and generally post good information. I learn from just a great number of people, and quite often people(students) who are very much still learning, who nonetheless know a lot about something(s). I think it is WAY better than a lot of sites that talk about perfume/perfuming; otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time here after twenty-some years of previous interest. Thanks to you and everyone else who has taught us so much here.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st January 2015 at 04:24 AM.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post



    There is a little bit of extra responsibility if you like to help others, because you don't want to misguide them. I like to help others, based on previous experience/learning. And yet, because there are areas I am very much learning about as well, there is sometimes some nervousness based on that. So far I haven't been attacked too much for trying to help innapropriately. But I think most people here are intelligent and generally post good information. I learn from just a great number of people, and quite often people(students) who are very much still learning, who nonetheless know a lot about something(s). I think it is WAY better than a lot of sites that talk about perfume/perfuming; otherwise I wouldn't spend so much time here after twenty-some years of previous interest. Thanks to you and everyone else who has taught us so much here.
    Ditto- My thoughts exactly.
    I am new to soaping and extremely raw at the art of fragrances. But I have made soap that I am trying to infuse with fragrance- hence my arrival here.

    So knowing my limitations, I would never presume to inform anyone here how to make perfume- but I have a basic idea what does and does not work for soap. Diluting fragrance with glycerin as a first step in mixing is simple and easy in soap making particularly if adding after/during the cooking phase. Certain principals of soap fragrance are the same, but others are quite different from a more specialized body fragrance like perfume. For one, it is encased in fatty acid hydroxides with glycerin as a byproduct of this reaction and intended to be placed in solution with water for cleansing and moisturizing and not adorned per se. Often the objective is for the fragrance to make the bathing or shaving experience more enjoyable without lasting much longer than the routine.

    So it is common practice for soap makers to do what I have described previously. This may be heresy here, but not elsewhere. I am always open to more efficacious methods and hope this explanation is not perceived as a general endorsement of one method over another, particularly here where the audience is much more focused towards a different fragrance carrier base entirely. What we have in common is the joy of fragrances. I hope my posts are accepted in that spirit.

  49. #49

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    OK: For many things, a thing to consider is Why?

    Here, Why add glycerin to the fragrance concentrate?

    You may have done it. I don't doubt that you have and were not dissatisfied with the result.

    But there is no perfuming reason to do so. The "Why do it" just isn't there.

    If you want to add glycerin to your SOAP or lotion of some kind you may well have a reason to do so.

  50. #50

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacetransient View Post
    Ditto- My thoughts exactly.
    I am new to soaping and extremely raw at the art of fragrances. But I have made soap that I am trying to infuse with fragrance- hence my arrival here.

    So knowing my limitations, I would never presume to inform anyone here how to make perfume- but I have a basic idea what does and does not work for soap. Diluting fragrance with glycerin as a first step in mixing is simple and easy in soap making particularly if adding after/during the cooking phase. Certain principals of soap fragrance are the same, but others are quite different from a more specialized body fragrance like perfume. For one, it is encased in fatty acid hydroxides with glycerin as a byproduct of this reaction and intended to be placed in solution with water for cleansing and moisturizing and not adorned per se. Often the objective is for the fragrance to make the bathing or shaving experience more enjoyable without lasting much longer than the routine.

    So it is common practice for soap makers to do what I have described previously. This may be heresy here, but not elsewhere. I am always open to more efficacious methods and hope this explanation is not perceived as a general endorsement of one method over another, particularly here where the audience is much more focused towards a different fragrance carrier base entirely. What we have in common is the joy of fragrances. I hope my posts are accepted in that spirit.
    To repeat; it is perfectly possible to add Glycerin to the soap base. What is not to be done is to add Glycerin to the Fragrance. If you wish to add Glycerin before, after or with the addition of Fragrance then go ahead. However, please do not mix Glycerin with the Fragrance.

    To repeat myself. There is no difference in the way a Soap fragrance is made to the way any other type of Fragrance is made; the ingredients are the same. The only difference is in the choice of ingredients; those for a Soap will be stable in Soap.

    Not sure if I can make this any more simple.

  51. #51
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    What is not to be done is to add Glycerin to the Fragrance. If you wish to add Glycerin before, after or with the addition of Fragrance then go ahead. However, please do not mix Glycerin with the Fragrance.
    Please explain the difference above?

    With all due respect I believe I have posted in the wrong forum. I apologize for any inconvenience to the respondents who have obviously never made soap but are indeed most accomplished with fragrances. I will return here on occasion to read and continue learning, but not to post, unless someone requests a most basic lesson in soap making- to which others are much more qualified to give, with other forums much more suited to that end.

    Thank you for your time.

  52. #52

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I think you are absolutely right that the focus will be different on different forums.

    Here, where we make a fragrance concentrate, it is the aromamaterials themselves mixed together, and nothing else. Or, it might be the aromamaterials plus certain solvents, where these solvents serve a purpose. For example, some of our aromamaterials might be solids or resins and there might be a reason to dissolve them first into a material such as IPM or dipropyleneglycol. Then all our aromaterials themselves plus these dissolved materials, including the solvent that is there for a reason, are mixed together and that is our concentrate.

    There is no reason to add glycerin to that. There could be problems due to poor solubility in glycerin, which is a more polar material than ethanol (does not want to dissolve low polar materials as well, and most aromamaterials have low polarity. Polarity has to do with the kinds of chemical groups that are present, and "like" dissolves better in "like." Adding unlike solvent can cause precipitation.)

    It might be done in specific cases without causing any problem, except for limiting use to where one wants to have at least that amount of glycerin in the final product. That might not always be the case, and would be limiting the use concentrate, with absolutely no "on the other hand" advantage.

    If you don't add glycerin to the concentrate, you can still use it just fine... if you want to add glycerin to your soap, you can add it separately as David suggested, correct? And you will be sure to not have the precipitation problems that can occur, and your concentrate will remain usable for other things if desired.

    Basically, there's just no advantage at all to adding it to the concentrate, and potential disadvantages.

  53. #53

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacetransient View Post
    Please explain the difference above?

    With all due respect I believe I have posted in the wrong forum. I apologize for any inconvenience to the respondents who have obviously never made soap but are indeed most accomplished with fragrances. I will return here on occasion to read and continue learning, but not to post, unless someone requests a most basic lesson in soap making- to which others are much more qualified to give, with other forums much more suited to that end.

    Thank you for your time.
    I have made soap. I have also made many, many fragrances that went into Soap and were sold in large amounts. The first fragrance I ever sold was a Soap fragrance. The difference between adding Glycerine to your Soap Base and adding Glycerin to your Fragrance is that Glycerin is not soluble in the Fragrance but is is Soap base. Add Glycerine to a Soap base, with, before or after the addition of Fragrance; fine. Add Glycerine to Fragrance; not fine.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 23rd January 2015 at 06:38 AM.

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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    This area is new to me so I must admit I may be wrong even if my argument seems to make common sense: mixing the fragrance with glycerin before mixing with the hardening soap rather than mixing the the fragrance first then mixing in the glycerin (or another oil or superfat/skin conditioner) should have no discernible effect on scent- except to simplify or complicate the final mixing results.

    I think most soap makers would admit fragrances are often a wild card and your points may well be a source for concern.

    But since this is a testable proposition I will indeed test this premise with a chosen fragrance oil/mix and vary their input into three batches of soap and report back here:
    It will be agreed that the results are not conclusive- only representative of that particular and very limited test. It appears I may have spoken too soon about not posting here again....
    Regardless, thanks again for your honest input into my own interests and experiences.

  55. #55

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    Not in any way to discourage your experiment, but a further thing to consider is, Still, what would be the advantage of mixing glycerin with the fragrance concentrate, rather than treating it as a potential part of the soap formula when and if desired, and in the specific amount desired for that purpose?

    If no advantage, then the question of "Why do it" remains unanswered, and reasons not to do it have been given.

  56. #56

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I will repeat myself once more, and only once more. Adding Glycerin to a Fragrance concentrate will not work because Glycerin is not soluble in most Fragrance materials. Try it and see. There is absolutely no advantage to adding Glycerin to a Fragrance concentrate. In the same way, there would be no advantage to adding water to a fragrance concentrate.

    "Why do it?" Don't do it.

  57. #57
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    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    There may be other factors involved. I will perform the experiments regardless as a learning experience. To be more precise I will be adding 5% of the total batch weight in fragrance oils to the glycerin which comprises15% of the batch weight- because it's easier mixing that 20% combination with a cooked soap that is already the consistency of mashed potatoes- that is because it is easier to mix a larger quantity of liquid into something semi-solid than to mix a small portion followed by a larger one, or even vise versa.

    I am somewhat perplexed by the reactions here. Even my chemistry teachers would have encouraged this experiment- especially if they were certain of an outcome contrary to my expectations. We learn more from our failures than we do our successes. It's almost as if I am attacking someones religion.

    Wisdom is knowing the truth of something often without direct experience of it. For the rest of us it's trial and error. Cut me some slack. Let's experiment.

    Perhaps the concern is that entertaining these ideas will promote them further? I will not tell anyone I am making perfume- I am making soap with a scent. But perhaps I will gain a more receptive audience with soap makers. Should I stay there?

  58. #58

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    No one told you not to experiment, and the business about "almost as if attacking someone's religion" is really getting into left field. People will do what they will do, end of story. Incidentally, doing something one way and not the other and advised way is not an experiment that does anything to establish whether it's better to do it. I should have left glycerin a matter of the sticky, there was enough there already.

    I'm outta here, no point in over-repetition.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 25th January 2015 at 02:52 AM.

  59. #59

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    If you can avoid wasting the time and expense of trial and error by learning facts from those who know them why would you insist on doing otherwise?

  60. #60

    Default Re: perfume formulas/recipes using glycerin

    I will just add that the notion of adding glycerin to fragance materials is one of the most often seen bits of bad advice on the internet. It's infamous, and I am not kidding. We encounter that all the time here, and I personally have been fighting that one off for more than several years. It's one of those things that if you repeat often enough it might seem true.

    If you add it, your fragrance mix will no longer be a solution, and any maturation of the scent will be interfered with. The fragrance won't smell like itself either, because the materials won't even be dissolved, or the dissolving will be haphazard and uneven at best.

    Lastly, we don't know everything. But we have yet to hear a single reason for putting glycerine in a fragrance.

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