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  1. #1
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    Default Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Dear Basenoters,

    Almost new to the art, I was asked by a 60 years old lady to concoct for her a jasmine based fragrance.

    I have never tried to imagine to make a jasmine fragrance myself, as it's not personally my cup of tea, but this could be an intriguing challenge for me to take on and learn something.

    She is, I would say, conservative fragrancewise, and I imagine she's thinking of a classic jasmine fragrance, sweet, strong, with a personal twist. Now, my problems are basically 2: first is my limited palette - I have some 50 ingredients, which is not bad for a beginner but there are some must-have that I haven't get hold of yet (a good rose, lily of the valley, oud and many others. I have some basic chemichals though: ambergris, civet, castoreum, aldehyde c-11 and c-14, musk ketone, coumarin, indole).
    Second: I have no idea how to work around jasmine. I thought to start from a combination of jasmine, black pepper, frankincense and bergamot, which I found out works fine, but I feel it's not enough. I am wondering what basenotes I may use, for example, but cannot figure out a solution.

    Any suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    This is quite a challenge you've taken on.

    First off, if it was me I'd look at using two different jasmine absolutes - not least because the regulatory restrictions are so harsh on the regular jasmine absolute - so I'd want to boost it with a nice Jasmine sambac absolute as well. I don't see Hedione on your list, if you don't already have it I would buy some. It's hugely valuable in many, many fragrances but it's a no-brainer for jasmine: you could make half your concentrate of hedione and get good value from it. Methyl anthranilate works well with jasmine too and some floralozone would help to lighten it a bit - jasmine can be very heavy.

    In terms of base notes the the two vital things are musk and civet / indole - as you have civet and indole I'd use both but of course only in tiny amounts. With the musk you really want more than one and for this application, to go with the musk ketone I would be looking at ambrettolide, exaltolide or romandolide (galaxolide would also be an option but personally I don't like it's persistence in the environment and people so prefer romandolide instead).

    Your back pepper and frankincense will also contribute to the base and you might also consider adding some atlas cedarwood or one of the cedar-toned aroma chemicals (or both) and you'd almost certainly get value from a small amount of one of the synthetic ambergris too.

    For top-notes I'd consider neroli as well as bergamot perhaps supported with some ethyl linalool plus ethyl linalyl acetate or linalyl acetate if you have them. You might also find Schinus molle (pink pepper) gives a nice bright effect with the black pepper and jasmine combination.

    I hope that helps.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Can you list what you have?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    This is quite a challenge you've taken on.

    First off, if it was me I'd look at using two different jasmine absolutes - not least because the regulatory restrictions are so harsh on the regular jasmine absolute - so I'd want to boost it with a nice Jasmine sambac absolute as well. I don't see Hedione on your list, if you don't already have it I would buy some. It's hugely valuable in many, many fragrances but it's a no-brainer for jasmine: you could make half your concentrate of hedione and get good value from it. Methyl anthranilate works well with jasmine too and some floralozone would help to lighten it a bit - jasmine can be very heavy.

    In terms of base notes the the two vital things are musk and civet / indole - as you have civet and indole I'd use both but of course only in tiny amounts. With the musk you really want more than one and for this application, to go with the musk ketone I would be looking at ambrettolide, exaltolide or romandolide (galaxolide would also be an option but personally I don't like it's persistence in the environment and people so prefer romandolide instead).

    Your back pepper and frankincense will also contribute to the base and you might also consider adding some atlas cedarwood or one of the cedar-toned aroma chemicals (or both) and you'd almost certainly get value from a small amount of one of the synthetic ambergris too.

    For top-notes I'd consider neroli as well as bergamot perhaps supported with some ethyl linalool plus ethyl linalyl acetate or linalyl acetate if you have them. You might also find Schinus molle (pink pepper) gives a nice bright effect with the black pepper and jasmine combination.

    I hope that helps.
    Helps tremendously, Chris, thanks

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    This is quite a challenge you've taken on.

    First off, if it was me I'd look at using two different jasmine absolutes - not least because the regulatory restrictions are so harsh on the regular jasmine absolute - so I'd want to boost it with a nice Jasmine sambac absolute as well. I don't see Hedione on your list, if you don't already have it I would buy some. It's hugely valuable in many, many fragrances but it's a no-brainer for jasmine: you could make half your concentrate of hedione and get good value from it. Methyl anthranilate works well with jasmine too and some floralozone would help to lighten it a bit - jasmine can be very heavy.

    In terms of base notes the the two vital things are musk and civet / indole - as you have civet and indole I'd use both but of course only in tiny amounts. With the musk you really want more than one and for this application, to go with the musk ketone I would be looking at ambrettolide, exaltolide or romandolide (galaxolide would also be an option but personally I don't like it's persistence in the environment and people so prefer romandolide instead).

    Your back pepper and frankincense will also contribute to the base and you might also consider adding some atlas cedarwood or one of the cedar-toned aroma chemicals (or both) and you'd almost certainly get value from a small amount of one of the synthetic ambergris too.

    For top-notes I'd consider neroli as well as bergamot perhaps supported with some ethyl linalool plus ethyl linalyl acetate or linalyl acetate if you have them. You might also find Schinus molle (pink pepper) gives a nice bright effect with the black pepper and jasmine combination.

    I hope that helps.
    Helps tremendously, Chris, thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    The list (approximately):

    Bergamot, mandarin, lime, elemi, lavender, orange, grapefruit

    frankincense, myrtle, clary sage, black pepper, lavender, cardamom, clove bud, basil, rose (not good quality), geranium, vanilla, honeysuckle, marigold, osmanthus, rosemary,ylang ylang, rosewood, juniperberry, turmeric

    labdanum, benzoin, cedarwood, patchouli, oakmoss, tobacco, seaweed absolute, Australian sandalwood, myrrh, opoponax, birch tar

    Chemichals: aldehyde c-14 and c-11, coumarin, civet, castoreum, musk ketone, methyl ionone, indole

  6. #6

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Do you know what perfumes she likes and already wears? Might be good to find out in order to know what direction to take yours in to have it fully appreciated. They may be unrelated but they may indicate a strong taste in a certain direction. At 60, I would imagine she knows what she likes.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Do you know what perfumes she likes and already wears? Might be good to find out in order to know what direction to take yours in to have it fully appreciated. They may be unrelated but they may indicate a strong taste in a certain direction. At 60, I would imagine she knows what she likes.
    I do not know. She only told me she wants something Jasmine based, sweet (she also mentioned vanilla), strong and personal. No other details - I only know she likes Lorenzo Villoresi's fragrances

  8. #8

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Lets see what families you already have here...

    Bergamot/lime/grapefruit
    Mandarin/Orange/C14/C11

    Lavender/rose?/geranium/honeysuckle/marigold/osmanthus/ylang ylang/Methyl ionone
    Frankincense/Myrrh/oppopnax
    Myrtle/clary sage/basil/rosemary/rosewood/juniperberry
    Black pepper/cardomom/clovebud/turmeric

    Vanilla/labdanum/benzoin/coumarin
    cedarwood/sandalwood
    Patchouli/Oakmoss/seaweed
    Birch tar/tobacco (depends how floral a tobacco it is)
    Civet/castoreum/musk/indole

    You've got a pretty good spread here to play with.

    I'm rummaging in my ancient books for you...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I am not a perfumer, so I wouldn't know how to do. But I want to stress what others said: jasmine blooms with civet. The jasmine-civet combo is a staple of old french perfumery (see Joy).

    More recently, Serge Lutens came up with a scent named Sarrasins, a wonderful jasmine-leather-osmanthus combo (with a touch of candied fruits like plum and apricot). Not sure how easy it would be to approach this combo (birch tar?), but it smells glorious.

    cacio

  10. #10

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Another idea is to type in the key ingredients you are thinking of using into the search directory and see what perfumes pop up and see what else they have used for further inspiration.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Thank you very much

    I made it, and I made it with what I had (only one jasmin abs, and not with the chemichals Christ suggested - I just ordered them, though ).

    The result it's good, at least I like it. I will wait some weeks for maturation, and will probably reformulate once I'll have new ingredients as I am expected to have it ready for Christmas.

    One probably silly question. I have broken down the formula just listing the ingredients in grams (whereI have used materials already diluted, I have calculated the neat weight in grams depending on the dilution ratio). So, my question is: now that I have a line of numbers for the ingredients (0.16, 0.42, 0.03 etc...), how do I draw a formula with the percentage of the single materials in order to have a ready to use chart if I wanted to repeat it in other quantities? I know it's purely a mathematical question, but my maths is pitiful and you can probably help.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I think Chris has charts on his website that are for excel. I'm afraid I am not a computer maths whizz either. I tend to work everything out the hard way using paper and a pen.... I really must get excelled up. I'm sure it would be easier.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I'm a bit mathematically challenged too. What I've been doing so far is to formulate from the start by percentages - so I decide what percent of the material I want in the finished product and then use the appropriate weight.

    Is it better to formulate just using "parts" that add up to 1000?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I actually don't know why that is... Maybe to make sure an industrial formula is consistant.

    It sort of explains it here in paragraph seven:-

    http://www.grasse.fr/spip.php?page=d...id_article=718

  15. #15

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    While we're on jasmine, how indolic should a good jasmine absolute really be? I recently got some of the Egypt abs from Hermitage and after a while on the blotter it really smells predominantly of indole. I have the pure stuff to compare. I don't get this in the Sambac and I didn't get it in another Egypt abs I had a while ago. What percentage of indole would you typically add to a jasmine abs? I can't imagine this one would need any.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I would imagine it was a matter for the resulting smell. Wiki reckons jasmine contains approx 2.5% Indole. My Egyptian Jasmine wouldn't need any added at all.

    Found this article.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Oh i am jasmin lover!
    And there is one new great thing on jasmine called tawaf,
    Its jasmin sambac-indole-opoponax theme, i tried it just tiny dab, it smelled very indolic to me, but that perfumer doesn't use anything artificial only natural stuff:-)

    Recieved it just today

    No need to say i like sarrasins and i think for this lady you could make her jasmine-rose- sandalwood combination and add some mandarines to it heheh, citruses :-) how would that smell? And in the base i would put sandalwood cause its sweet , maybe some frankincense...and something more sweet that would be nice tonka?

    :-)
    Mumsy would you like it that way?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    I've always liked fragrances that added coconut with jasmine.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Jasmine based fragrance - help needed

    Thanks all for the insight. I have much more things to work out than time and ingredients to actually do it, but fine - plenty of food for thought and nostrils

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