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Thread: Osmanthus

  1. #1

    Default Osmanthus

    I'm trying to create an osmanthus perfume and am wondering what chemicals are good for supporting it. It reminds me, strangely, of oud and I can imagine it in an oud perfume. Would other woods be good? I read somewhere that benzaldehyde, C-16, and amyl butyrate can be used. Any thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    I would use Aldehyde C14 (gamma Undecalactone) rather than C16 (Ethyl Methyl Phenyl Glycidate). C14 smells of Peach whilst C16 smells of Strawberry. Other lactones would also be useful ( gamma Decalactone etc.) Osmanthus has an Apricot note to it, so anything used to make an Apricot accord would be useful. There is a speciality material called Apritone, but I don't know if it commercially available. And a base called Nectaryl (can't remember who makes it). A touch of Buccu or Cassis would also help. I see you mean about Oud; there is a leathery animalic aspect to Osmanthus. Chinese Cedarwood could be useful. Anything ussed to make Leather accord (iso Butyl Quinolene and Birch Tar, in very small amounts).

  3. #3

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Oh, thank you that's very helpful. I will get into the lab and start experimenting. I've ordered 3 different osmanthus absolutes from Eden Botanicals, Enfleurage (in New York), and White Lotus Botanicals to compare them. I'll report back on my findings.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I would use Aldehyde C14 (gamma Undecalactone) rather than C16 (Ethyl Methyl Phenyl Glycidate). C14 smells of Peach whilst C16 smells of Strawberry. Other lactones would also be useful ( gamma Decalactone etc.) Osmanthus has an Apricot note to it, so anything used to make an Apricot accord would be useful. There is a speciality material called Apritone, but I don't know if it commercially available. And a base called Nectaryl (can't remember who makes it). A touch of Buccu or Cassis would also help. I see you mean about Oud; there is a leathery animalic aspect to Osmanthus. Chinese Cedarwood could be useful. Anything ussed to make Leather accord (iso Butyl Quinolene and Birch Tar, in very small amounts).
    Very sound advice here, just to add that I've seen Apritone listed by Bedoukian though I've never used it.

    Nectaryl is available at a reasonable price - it is made by Givaudan - and has a lovely peachy note that is almost good enough to be a peach accord on its own.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Also don't forget the floralicy of Osmanthus. It has aspects of both Jasmin and Tuberose (and Narcisse) so they shouldn't be forgotten.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    I know you can get Nectaryl from the Perfumers Apprentice, and I think I saw Apritone available on creatingperfume.com (http://www.creatingperfume.com/apritone.aspx) but I don't see it on their site now.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Osmanthus

    I just got an osmanthus absolute here: https://havenessence.com/?s=osmanthus. I cannot compare with other suppliers, but the smell is mind blowing (although I didn't expect the grey-ish, autumnal note that emerges from beneath the sweet, apricot note which reminds of the fresh blossoms).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Osmanthus absolute has a wonderful and complex smell. I wish it were used more often, and I wish there was more available.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    I agree it's amazing stuff. I notice form the Hermitage Oils newsletter Adam sent out late last night that he's promoting Osmanthus absolute in it - I'll copy in his write-up for those that are interested. I must say it's inspired me to want to build a fragrance around it - perhaps for release next autumn . . . anyway here's the write-up, with suitably flowery language to match the material:

    Osmanthus Absolute

    This is the absolute oil that makes a real statement and I regard it as the jewel in every perfumerís crown. This is the ultimate timeless floral aromatic, as soon as you remove the cap from the bottle the world stops for you and Osmanthus exudes with one aim in mind which is to seduce you. For me the initial top note is somewhat fruity and sweet comparable maybe to eating yellow Mirabelle plums late in the summer. However it is the heart note that makes this utterly spectacular as I detect an infusion of sweet juicy Apricots, fresh cream and a thick helping of Greek Honey. This absolute is truly beautiful, incredibly tenacious and if allowed will stimulate you, inspire you and satisfy all of your floral desires.

    This absolute is of Chinese Origin and is produced by solvent extraction of the fragrant flowers. The colour is golden yellow and it takes approximately 3000 kilos of flowers to produce just one kilo of this sensational absolute oil.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I agree it's amazing stuff. I notice form the Hermitage Oils newsletter Adam sent out late last night that he's promoting Osmanthus absolute in it - I'll copy in his write-up for those that are interested. I must say it's inspired me to want to build a fragrance around it - perhaps for release next autumn . . . anyway here's the write-up, with suitably flowery language to match the material:

    Happy that you want to do that, as I am kind of obsessed with osmanthus - is one of the olfactive memories that triggered my desire to learn perfumery. When you'll have done it, I'd love to try!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Hi Chris,
    I've had mixed results with osmanthus absolute from different makers. Can you tell me where you get yours? It sounds spectacular. So far I have too examples, one from Enfleurage in New York and the other from White Lotus Aromatics. The one from White Lotus seems richer and more complex. What you're describing sounds even better.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Tuberolactone comes to mind, esp since it is actually found in Osmanthus...

    Advanced Biotech's Floraline Osmanthus Natural Replacer is a very good product...
    See here:
    http://www.adv-bio.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProdNo=1430


    You can look through the GC of the Absolute for ideas here:
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/gca/gc1000081.html
    (Albeit it doesn't list the Tuberolactone I mentioned above...)

    Paul Kiler


    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh Yes, Apritone is available... but I do prefer my Osmanthus a little bit more on the drier side than the wet juicy fruity side...
    Last edited by socalwoman; 19th January 2013 at 08:41 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    So less of the juicy fruits and more of the dry fruits (like delta damascone).

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Osmanthus

    As Osmanthus absolute is now not too expensive -at least in the UK & France courtesy of HermitageOils and Proxisante- perhaps a look at extending it would be useful? Here are 3 ways I have found- two synths and one natural.

    Philip Kraft of Scent & Chemistry book & facebook fame suggests in his book: 1) beta-ionone, dihydro-beta-ionone (a less well-known ionone), gamma-decalactone, methyl jasmonate, linalool, nerol, and geraniol.
    2) beta-ionone, gamma-decalactone, hedione, and beta-damascenone. All these except for methyl jasmonate are available at HermitageOils and Olfactik.

    The first one could be done sort of naturally except for the methyl jasmonate which is a common in plants as a defense hormone but strangely only available as a nature identical. Hedione is similar to it being Methyl dihydrojasmonate.

    As to naturals, thanks to Paul Kiler above for suggesting Floraline Osmanthus Nat which is a mixture of ionones, geraniol and linalool. Now can anyone suggest a Do It Yourself version of this? Presumably beta-ionone, dihydro-beta-ionone, geraniol and linalool?
    Last edited by nemenator; 9th March 2014 at 09:45 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Hello,

    i also love my osmanthus-absolute with its clear green tea-like aroma of peaches.
    But i also have C-14 (gamma-undecalactone) which to me has this huge cream note beside the peach and i couldn't find any creamy note in my osmanthus-absolue.(i can only get an tiny creamy note if i labor myself.)
    Are you sure about the C-14 in the natural osmanthus...?

    as a key compound i read:
    gamma-decalactone (character-compound) 4%
    beta-ionone 10%
    beta-damascenone
    theaspirane
    theaspirone
    megastigmadienone
    megastigmatrienone

    I didn't have gamma-decalactone but i think it won't be so strong creamy like the C-14(gamma undecalactone).
    Would be also in my interest to know if the gamma-decalactone has a slight creamy note...?
    (if i remember right most lactones have something creamy/milky the ones more the other less)...as cumarin should be also an lactone but didn't have an creamy/milky side to me.


    Greets:

    Hondo

    P.S.:
    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    2) beta-ionone, gamma-decalactone, hedione, and beta-damascenone. All these except for methyl jasmonate are available at HermitageOils and Olfactik.
    Something interesting comes to my mind:
    I read in a book a while back (think it was from Monsieur Ellena) that if you mix in the right proportions beta-Ionone and hedione one would get an green-tea impression.
    As i wrote earlier i get also an clear green-tea impression beside the peach in my osmanthus-absolue.
    Last edited by Hondo; 10th March 2014 at 03:19 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    gamma Decalactone is available, and is more Apricot than Peach. Not as strong as Aldehyde C14, but a lovely material and very useful in its own right.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Hello,

    thanks for the information i like apricot as well i have to try it out.

    Greetings:

    Hondo

  18. #18

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    I think it also matters if you are after a similarity between the fresh flower, or the Absolute... They're different animals...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Another Osmanthus accord from Philip Kraft-
    10 β-ionone
    20 β-dihydroionone
    10 γ-decalactone
    2 γ-dodecalactone
    1 α-Irisone (viz 90% α-Ionone)
    10 nerol
    10 nerolidol
    10 Hedione HC
    1 Rose oxide
    2 Damascenone 10%/DPG

    Details from https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scent...63202847040070

  20. #20

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    Another Osmanthus accord from Philip Kraft-
    Good Spot there Nemenator!

    That formula will go perfectly right into my Osmanthus formulation comparison with others I've been working on, and comparing the Fresh, and the Absolutes to come up with good accords... THANKS!
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  21. #21

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Many osmanthus accords I tested seem to recreate the lighter, fresher, more tea-like silver variety of osmanthus. I personally love the gold variety, which is prevalent in my hometown and gives off a stronger, sweeter, more sensual aroma...

  22. #22

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    Osmanthus accord
    10 γ-decalactone
    2 γ-dodecalactone
    I was making this, and realized that my lactones collection lacked (or is that lacted) the γ-dodecalactone.. OOOPS!

    Do I want it bad enough to buy a Kilo? (Since no one sells in small qty...?)
    Maybe I should buy it and pass it onto Perfumer Supply House to sell...?

    I guess for now, I'll have to try it with UN-decalactone, instead of DO-decalactone...

    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 5th May 2014 at 11:17 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Osmanthus

    γ-dodecalactone is available at Perfumer's World from 10gm and as 100gm at SAFC and as a natural at 3 x the price. This accord is all natural except for the Hedione.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Osmanthus

    Thanks Nemenator, So far, I have resisted buying anything from Perfumers World. I think I am happy to continue abstinence. Or should that be obstinance? :-)

    Yes, I saw the SAFC price, thanks.

    I substituted in for the y-dodecalactone that small amount of Apritone instead.
    I also didn't have the 1 α-Irisone (viz 90% α-Ionone) and so, subbed in Irisone Pure and a bit of Aplha ionone not so pure.

    We'll see how it smells...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

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