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  1. #1

    Default Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I'm making 10% diluted oil/ alcohol perfume ( 30% oil vs. 60 % alcohol), rest is essentials. I grow the frag for two days but the alcohol seems to rise above the oil an hour or so after every shaking. I thought the alcohol will somehow "marry" the oil but I think something's wrong.

    What shall I do?

    The oil is Jojoba Oil, while the alcohol is 90% pure grain.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Jojoba oil will not mix with alcohol; that is what you are seeing. As I understand it you are taking your concentrated fragrance and diluting it to 10.0% in Jojoba oil; then taking 30.0% of that and diluting it in 60.0% alcohol. If this is correct I have to ask why? Why not take your concentrated fragrance and dilute it to 10.0% in alcohol, you will stand a better chance of solubility.


    "I'm making 10% diluted oil/ alcohol perfume ( 30% oil vs. 60 % alcohol), rest is essentials." I have no idea what you mean by this.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    What I meant is that the essential oils comprise 15/% of it, while oil is 25 %(correction), vodka is 60%. Anyway, I made new dilution again -15% EO vs. 85% vodka(Smirnoff triple distilled). I wanted more EdP than EdT dilution. Checked this morning, smells much better than last nights's mixing. BUT there's still some 10% clear vodka or water remains on top and 90 % milky-oily substance that falls bellow. When I shake it, it gets all milky. I thought is going to be clear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and on why I put both Jojoba and Alcohol? I've read on numerous occasions through the web. :P

  4. #4
    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Commercial vodka has too much water in it for it to be any use as a perfume solvent. You need to get some Perfumer's alcohol, which has less water in it. And remove the Jojoba and any other fixed oil (e.g, Almond or Grape Seed) completely, they will not dissolve in alcohol but either turn the whole thing milky, or form to layers; as you have observed.

  5. #5
    Super Member racuda's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    If you have access, 190 proof Everclear may also be a good choice. It is more available to me than perfumer's alcohol.
    Randall

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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlia Noir View Post
    Oh, and on why I put both Jojoba and Alcohol? I've read on numerous occasions through the web. :P
    that's just proof that you can't trust the web. but you can trust david ruskin. :)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    As I said, I did make another mixture of 15% EO vs. 85% commercial vodka, without carrier oil. I just checked - still milky, with crisp layer on top... Is there possibility that the EO's quality (said to be top -notch), may cause this milky substance? No carrier oil this time! Can you recommend some bonding solution?

    Switching to Perfumer's Alcohol immediately though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Theoretically, if most of the water from the alcohol goes above the oils, the alcohol should stay with the EO's and not turn milky. Just wondering...

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, what should I do with this dilution? I desperately want to use it, but it looks grose when I see layered, somewhat poorly mixed "fragrance".

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    toss it, or use it if you like, but there's nothing you can do to fix it. and it might turn rancid at some point. as you probably understand by now, the problem is that there is too much water in there.

    please do some reading on this forum before you go ahead. issues like these have been addressed before many times, you can learn a thing or two without making the mistakes yourself. a valuable lesson does not have to be expensive. ;)

    people like david campen, chris bartlett, janmeut and others share a wealth of knowledge here, and deflate a few silly myths every now and again while they're at it.
    Last edited by gido; 10th January 2013 at 08:41 PM.

  9. #9
    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I think gido's advice is good (and thanks for the compliments!!); there is not much you can do with your cloudy mix. It is possible to remove some of the water but you will need to get a separating funnel and a couple of chemicals to help you. It's a two stage process. Look up "Drying agents" on Google, where there is a complete description of this process. However, I don't think it is really worth it. As you have your concentrated fragrance you can make up a new sample when you get your Perfumer's alcohol.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Thank you guys! You're such a treasure!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Just quickly to agree with the advice already given: I've seen some of the useless advice that seems to be constantly promulgated on the web, including in at least one case by someone claiming to be a qualified chemist, and it makes me very cross: so many people waste so much time & resources on this nonsense!

    To make perfume you need ethanol, aroma chemicals, essential oils & absolutes. You don't need water, glycerine, jojoba, almond oil or any of the other things so often recommended by people who have obviously never actually made anything according to the "formulas" they publish!

    Ok, rant over…
    Chris Bartlett
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    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Im happy to quote: if you want free advice, thats what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    To Chris; 1.What exactly are aroma chemicals? What types are out there? Which types, if any, to use in perfume dilutions and in what dosage?
    2. What is an absolute? Why is it used besides the strong odour of an EO itself?
    3. What is fixative? Why is it used. (read somewhere else about this, so I use this opportunity to learn a few more things from an expert).
    3. Will non-denatured ethanol (96%) dillute the EOs in proper manner? Because what I've found at home from 96% ethanol smells big time. I understand that Perfumer's Alcohol and Everclear don't smell so much. Just asking, in case I decide to use the regular ethanol.

    I think I've seen your website and I find it interesting that you're one-man-show, doing all your stuff by yourself. Does this mean that you make ALL of your perfumes by yourself or you mass-produce some?

    Thanks a lot in advance!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    you need to learn a lot before you can make perfume. i you have a question on a certain subject, use this way to search: enter site:www.basenotes.net/ query into the google search box, query being some keywords to search for, like 'aroma chemicals'.

    to answer one of your questions, aroma chemicals are the molecules we can smell, in particular the ones that are useful for perfumes and artificial flavouring in drinks and foodstuff (most of it is the same, for example raspberry candy can use largely the same molecules as raspberry lemonade and raspberry perfume).

    essential oils and absolutes (please look up this current thread about the differences) consist more or less entirely of these. there can be hundreds of them in a single oil.

    some of them are famous, like vanillin (think vanilla sugar, but also present in large doses in a vanilla bean; or caron pour un homme) but most of them aren't and have strange names like para-cresyl phenyl acetate (which is also know as benzene acetic acid 4-methylphenyl ester and a host of other names, but everybody seems to use the former).

    there must be thousands of these molecules. i do not really know how many. new ones are constantly being developed. people probably still are discovering some natural ones, too.

    in general, small molecules evaporate fast and these are topnotes, the big ones go slower, all the way up to the musks, and beyond that we can't smell them no longer and thus they aren't considered aroma chemicals any more.

    aroma chemicals can come from a natural source, they can even be isolated from their source, or they can be manufactured synthetically. the result is in theory the same (impurities can make a difference though!) some aroma chemicals are not known to exist in nature, they where invented by men in white coats.


    i think this should do for now as a basic introduction on this topic. there is a lot more to learn about them, and you will find a plenty to read when you browse and search this forum. use it to your advantage. good luck!
    Last edited by gido; 12th January 2013 at 06:29 PM.

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    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Dahlia, there is a basic introduction to Perfumery on this very site. Before you plunge into trying to create fragrances I think it would be a good idea to get to know the basics.

    I didn't realise how very little you knew about the subject.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlia Noir View Post
    To Chris; 1.What exactly are aroma chemicals? What types are out there? Which types, if any, to use in perfume dilutions and in what dosage?
    2. What is an absolute? Why is it used besides the strong odour of an EO itself?
    3. What is fixative? Why is it used. (read somewhere else about this, so I use this opportunity to learn a few more things from an expert).
    3. Will non-denatured ethanol (96%) dillute the EOs in proper manner? Because what I've found at home from 96% ethanol smells big time. I understand that Perfumer's Alcohol and Everclear don't smell so much. Just asking, in case I decide to use the regular ethanol.

    I think I've seen your website and I find it interesting that you're one-man-show, doing all your stuff by yourself. Does this mean that you make ALL of your perfumes by yourself or you mass-produce some?

    Thanks a lot in advance!
    I'm afraid you are really asking for a whole lifetime training in perfumery with this question! Nevertheless I'll try to provide some pointers:

    1). Gido has already given a good answer to this. I'll add this link to my blog post suggesting which ones are useful for a starting-out perfumer to experiment with first. There are about 3,500 aroma-chemicals currently commercially available for fragrance work and quite a lot more that are used in flavourings, some of which are occasionally used in perfumery. That's without the natural materials that, as guido says, are composed of multiple aroma-chemicals - anything from one (sweet almond oil) to many hundreds (rose oil contains over 700 aroma chemicals).

    2) Absolutes are extracted cold, using a solvent to avoid loss of material due to deterioration caused by the heat involved in distilling an essential oil and also the loss into the water of those materials that are water soluble. There is a lot more to it, but the point is they are different and capture a different part of the scent of a natural material.

    3) Yes. However denatured alcohol designed for perfumery use will do the job perfectly well at a fraction of the price, because you don't have to pay tax on it as you do for drinkable alcohol.

    Finally, yes being in business alone means that I make everything myself, by hand. I use the sort of basic equipment that I've recommended to others on my blog and all my fragrances are hand made. Very occasionally my other half will help out with making something (she's also been trained in basic perfumery techniques) but the vast majority of things are made by me alone. And I'm chief bottle washer too . . .

    I do however also design fragrances for other people, who may well have them mass-produced afterwards, but in that case they go out under someone else's brand and generally I don't get a mention in the marketing at all, much less my brand-name on the bottle.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 12th January 2013 at 06:03 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Im happy to quote: if you want free advice, thats what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I wouldn't throw away the failed mixture. The milkiness that you describe is down to a temporary emulsion being created. An emulsion forms when tiny particles or droplets become suspended in a medium. The milkiness is down to the suspended droplets scattering the light, which is known as the Tyndall effect. Your mixture is no good for using in a perfume but it can be incorporated into a liquid soap no problem. The soap will fully emulsify it and you'll end up with a nicely fragranced soap.

  17. #17
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    *IF* the cloudiness is caused by too much water, (which happens) then if you add 190 proof alcohol, and a bit more concentrate to make up for the added dilution, at the right ratio of water to alcohol, the solution will clear.

  18. #18

    Default Alcohol Perfume turns milky white: pls. help

    Hi,
    I am new to this forum. Tried making perfume from fragrance/ essential oil.

    Steps that i had followed:

    1) took ethanol 99.9% absolute half cup and added oil drops in it

    2) let it stay for 48 hours in dark place

    3) when i added distilled water and glycerin (few drops 98%), the solution turned milky.

    Why, what was wrong.
    Thanks

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Alcohol Perfume turns milky white: pls. help

    As mentioned in post # 11 - don't add glycerine & water.
    Maybe reading this thread (and the suggested links) thoroughly will be helpful.

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