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  1. #1

    Default Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I'm making 10% diluted oil/ alcohol perfume ( 30% oil vs. 60 % alcohol), rest is essentials. I grow the frag for two days but the alcohol seems to rise above the oil an hour or so after every shaking. I thought the alcohol will somehow "marry" the oil but I think something's wrong.

    What shall I do?

    The oil is Jojoba Oil, while the alcohol is 90% pure grain.

    Thanks

  2. #2

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Jojoba oil will not mix with alcohol; that is what you are seeing. As I understand it you are taking your concentrated fragrance and diluting it to 10.0% in Jojoba oil; then taking 30.0% of that and diluting it in 60.0% alcohol. If this is correct I have to ask why? Why not take your concentrated fragrance and dilute it to 10.0% in alcohol, you will stand a better chance of solubility.


    "I'm making 10% diluted oil/ alcohol perfume ( 30% oil vs. 60 % alcohol), rest is essentials." I have no idea what you mean by this.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    What I meant is that the essential oils comprise 15/% of it, while oil is 25 %(correction), vodka is 60%. Anyway, I made new dilution again -15% EO vs. 85% vodka(Smirnoff triple distilled). I wanted more EdP than EdT dilution. Checked this morning, smells much better than last nights's mixing. BUT there's still some 10% clear vodka or water remains on top and 90 % milky-oily substance that falls bellow. When I shake it, it gets all milky. I thought is going to be clear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and on why I put both Jojoba and Alcohol? I've read on numerous occasions through the web. :P

  4. #4

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Commercial vodka has too much water in it for it to be any use as a perfume solvent. You need to get some Perfumer's alcohol, which has less water in it. And remove the Jojoba and any other fixed oil (e.g, Almond or Grape Seed) completely, they will not dissolve in alcohol but either turn the whole thing milky, or form to layers; as you have observed.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    If you have access, 190 proof Everclear may also be a good choice. It is more available to me than perfumer's alcohol.
    Randall

  6. #6

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlia Noir View Post
    Oh, and on why I put both Jojoba and Alcohol? I've read on numerous occasions through the web. :P
    that's just proof that you can't trust the web. but you can trust david ruskin. :)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    As I said, I did make another mixture of 15% EO vs. 85% commercial vodka, without carrier oil. I just checked - still milky, with crisp layer on top... Is there possibility that the EO's quality (said to be top -notch), may cause this milky substance? No carrier oil this time! Can you recommend some bonding solution?

    Switching to Perfumer's Alcohol immediately though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Theoretically, if most of the water from the alcohol goes above the oils, the alcohol should stay with the EO's and not turn milky. Just wondering...

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, what should I do with this dilution? I desperately want to use it, but it looks grose when I see layered, somewhat poorly mixed "fragrance".

  8. #8

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    toss it, or use it if you like, but there's nothing you can do to fix it. and it might turn rancid at some point. as you probably understand by now, the problem is that there is too much water in there.

    please do some reading on this forum before you go ahead. issues like these have been addressed before many times, you can learn a thing or two without making the mistakes yourself. a valuable lesson does not have to be expensive. ;)

    people like david campen, chris bartlett, janmeut and others share a wealth of knowledge here, and deflate a few silly myths every now and again while they're at it.
    Last edited by gido; 10th January 2013 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I think gido's advice is good (and thanks for the compliments!!); there is not much you can do with your cloudy mix. It is possible to remove some of the water but you will need to get a separating funnel and a couple of chemicals to help you. It's a two stage process. Look up "Drying agents" on Google, where there is a complete description of this process. However, I don't think it is really worth it. As you have your concentrated fragrance you can make up a new sample when you get your Perfumer's alcohol.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Thank you guys! You're such a treasure!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Just quickly to agree with the advice already given: I've seen some of the useless advice that seems to be constantly promulgated on the web, including in at least one case by someone claiming to be a qualified chemist, and it makes me very cross: so many people waste so much time & resources on this nonsense!

    To make perfume you need ethanol, aroma chemicals, essential oils & absolutes. You don't need water, glycerine, jojoba, almond oil or any of the other things so often recommended by people who have obviously never actually made anything according to the "formulas" they publish!

    Ok, rant over…
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    To Chris; 1.What exactly are aroma chemicals? What types are out there? Which types, if any, to use in perfume dilutions and in what dosage?
    2. What is an absolute? Why is it used besides the strong odour of an EO itself?
    3. What is fixative? Why is it used. (read somewhere else about this, so I use this opportunity to learn a few more things from an expert).
    3. Will non-denatured ethanol (96%) dillute the EOs in proper manner? Because what I've found at home from 96% ethanol smells big time. I understand that Perfumer's Alcohol and Everclear don't smell so much. Just asking, in case I decide to use the regular ethanol.

    I think I've seen your website and I find it interesting that you're one-man-show, doing all your stuff by yourself. Does this mean that you make ALL of your perfumes by yourself or you mass-produce some?

    Thanks a lot in advance!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    you need to learn a lot before you can make perfume. i you have a question on a certain subject, use this way to search: enter site:www.basenotes.net/ query into the google search box, query being some keywords to search for, like 'aroma chemicals'.

    to answer one of your questions, aroma chemicals are the molecules we can smell, in particular the ones that are useful for perfumes and artificial flavouring in drinks and foodstuff (most of it is the same, for example raspberry candy can use largely the same molecules as raspberry lemonade and raspberry perfume).

    essential oils and absolutes (please look up this current thread about the differences) consist more or less entirely of these. there can be hundreds of them in a single oil.

    some of them are famous, like vanillin (think vanilla sugar, but also present in large doses in a vanilla bean; or caron pour un homme) but most of them aren't and have strange names like para-cresyl phenyl acetate (which is also know as benzene acetic acid 4-methylphenyl ester and a host of other names, but everybody seems to use the former).

    there must be thousands of these molecules. i do not really know how many. new ones are constantly being developed. people probably still are discovering some natural ones, too.

    in general, small molecules evaporate fast and these are topnotes, the big ones go slower, all the way up to the musks, and beyond that we can't smell them no longer and thus they aren't considered aroma chemicals any more.

    aroma chemicals can come from a natural source, they can even be isolated from their source, or they can be manufactured synthetically. the result is in theory the same (impurities can make a difference though!) some aroma chemicals are not known to exist in nature, they where invented by men in white coats.


    i think this should do for now as a basic introduction on this topic. there is a lot more to learn about them, and you will find a plenty to read when you browse and search this forum. use it to your advantage. good luck!
    Last edited by gido; 12th January 2013 at 07:29 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Dahlia, there is a basic introduction to Perfumery on this very site. Before you plunge into trying to create fragrances I think it would be a good idea to get to know the basics.

    I didn't realise how very little you knew about the subject.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahlia Noir View Post
    To Chris; 1.What exactly are aroma chemicals? What types are out there? Which types, if any, to use in perfume dilutions and in what dosage?
    2. What is an absolute? Why is it used besides the strong odour of an EO itself?
    3. What is fixative? Why is it used. (read somewhere else about this, so I use this opportunity to learn a few more things from an expert).
    3. Will non-denatured ethanol (96%) dillute the EOs in proper manner? Because what I've found at home from 96% ethanol smells big time. I understand that Perfumer's Alcohol and Everclear don't smell so much. Just asking, in case I decide to use the regular ethanol.

    I think I've seen your website and I find it interesting that you're one-man-show, doing all your stuff by yourself. Does this mean that you make ALL of your perfumes by yourself or you mass-produce some?

    Thanks a lot in advance!
    I'm afraid you are really asking for a whole lifetime training in perfumery with this question! Nevertheless I'll try to provide some pointers:

    1). Gido has already given a good answer to this. I'll add this link to my blog post suggesting which ones are useful for a starting-out perfumer to experiment with first. There are about 3,500 aroma-chemicals currently commercially available for fragrance work and quite a lot more that are used in flavourings, some of which are occasionally used in perfumery. That's without the natural materials that, as guido says, are composed of multiple aroma-chemicals - anything from one (sweet almond oil) to many hundreds (rose oil contains over 700 aroma chemicals).

    2) Absolutes are extracted cold, using a solvent to avoid loss of material due to deterioration caused by the heat involved in distilling an essential oil and also the loss into the water of those materials that are water soluble. There is a lot more to it, but the point is they are different and capture a different part of the scent of a natural material.

    3) Yes. However denatured alcohol designed for perfumery use will do the job perfectly well at a fraction of the price, because you don't have to pay tax on it as you do for drinkable alcohol.

    Finally, yes being in business alone means that I make everything myself, by hand. I use the sort of basic equipment that I've recommended to others on my blog and all my fragrances are hand made. Very occasionally my other half will help out with making something (she's also been trained in basic perfumery techniques) but the vast majority of things are made by me alone. And I'm chief bottle washer too . . .

    I do however also design fragrances for other people, who may well have them mass-produced afterwards, but in that case they go out under someone else's brand and generally I don't get a mention in the marketing at all, much less my brand-name on the bottle.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 12th January 2013 at 07:03 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I wouldn't throw away the failed mixture. The milkiness that you describe is down to a temporary emulsion being created. An emulsion forms when tiny particles or droplets become suspended in a medium. The milkiness is down to the suspended droplets scattering the light, which is known as the Tyndall effect. Your mixture is no good for using in a perfume but it can be incorporated into a liquid soap no problem. The soap will fully emulsify it and you'll end up with a nicely fragranced soap.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    *IF* the cloudiness is caused by too much water, (which happens) then if you add 190 proof alcohol, and a bit more concentrate to make up for the added dilution, at the right ratio of water to alcohol, the solution will clear.

  18. #18

    Default Alcohol Perfume turns milky white: pls. help

    Hi,
    I am new to this forum. Tried making perfume from fragrance/ essential oil.

    Steps that i had followed:

    1) took ethanol 99.9% absolute half cup and added oil drops in it

    2) let it stay for 48 hours in dark place

    3) when i added distilled water and glycerin (few drops 98%), the solution turned milky.

    Why, what was wrong.
    Thanks

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Alcohol Perfume turns milky white: pls. help

    As mentioned in post # 11 - don't add glycerine & water.
    Maybe reading this thread (and the suggested links) thoroughly will be helpful.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Hello David:
    I am new to this forum and I was trying to find a solution to my problem but, I still don't understand why my perfume stays milky. My essential oils were mixed with Everclear 151 proof at a ratio of 20% essential oils and no water was added. Any suggestions?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Im using Everclear 152 proof but still when mixing it with 20% essential oils it turned milky. No water added. Any suggestion?
    Last edited by Yani; 4th October 2014 at 10:05 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yani View Post
    Im using Everclear 152 proof but still when mixing it with 20% essential oils it turned milky. No water added. Any suggestion?
    Everclear 151 proof is roughly 25% water: that's too high to sustain a 20% solution of most essential oils.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  23. #23
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    Unhappy Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Everclear 151 proof is roughly 25% water: that's too high to sustain a 20% solution of most essential oils.
    Ummm! I thought that the higher the proof the better. I was told Everclear is a better choice since perfumers alcohol is really hard to get. What do you mean by too high? Am i using to much oil concentration? I just Used vodka 80 proof just to see. Same happened. Great smell but milky. Very disappointed. Am I doing something wrong? I just want to make eau de perfume.
    Last edited by Yani; 4th October 2014 at 11:43 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yani View Post
    Ummm! I thought that the higher the proof the better. I was told Everclear is a better choice since perfumers alcohol is really hard to get. What do you mean by too high? Am i using to much oil concentration? I just Used vodka 80 proof just to see. Same happened. Great smell but milky. Very disappointed. Am I doing something wrong? I just want to make eau de perfume.
    I mean 25% water is too much. Unsurprisingly then 60% water is far too much Ö
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I mean 25% water is too much. Unsurprisingly then 60% water is far too much …
    Thanks.
    If the water content is to high using vodka then why many people's perfume recipes required add even more water at the end? Very confusing. What should I use instead? I am very excited about my home perfume making but even though they smell fantastic to me, they don't look like a eau de perfume jajajaj

  26. #26

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yani View Post
    Thanks.
    If the water content is to high using vodka then why many people's perfume recipes required add even more water at the end? Very confusing. What should I use instead? I am very excited about my home perfume making but even though they smell fantastic to me, they don't look like a eau de perfume jajajaj
    There are many threads on this here and detailed information on my blog: have a read and you'll understand.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Very interesting your blog.
    I have read most of it and learned from it, but still could not find the answer to my question. Since It is very difficult to get pure ethanol or perfumers alcohol I need to use other substitute. My substitute has 25% water, thats what causes the solution to appear milky and cloudy. Do you think polysorbate 80 will clear the solution?

  28. #28

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Yani, You must use only Everclear 190 or Spirytus 192. Everclear 150/2 is not enough alcohol to not cloud up with adding EO's, it has too much water.

    Better yet, use 190 Perfumers alcohol.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  29. #29

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Yani,
    If you're in the U.S., perfumer's alcohol isn't hard to get at all.
    Off the top of my head, you can find it here:
    http://www.creatingperfume.com/16oun...rsalcohol.aspx

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Thanks my friend.
    Yesterday night I spent good time looking for the perfumers alcohol and I finally found it here. " saveonscent.com" 16. Oz of the product $21 including Shipping. I am not sure if I paid too much but I think the price was very reasonable. I am very excited to finally complete my projects. I have 3 EO blends that really please me and I can wait to make the eau de perfume.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Thanks for the advice. I just found a site where I could finally get the perfumers alcohol. Not sure If I could trust this seller but it seems a serious company.
    Saveonscents.com.
    Prices are reasonable I think.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Several friends of mine use the SOS perfumer's alcohol and seem pleased with it. You shouldn't have any issues.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yani View Post
    Thanks for the advice. I just found a site where I could finally get the perfumers alcohol. Not sure If I could trust this seller but it seems a serious company.
    Saveonscents.com.
    Prices are reasonable I think.
    Yes, Saveonscents and Creatingperfume.com are the only two places in the USA that I am aware of, to buy perfumers alcohol that isn't organic alcohol ($$$$).

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  34. #34

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    I've always just used everclear with good results. You just have to find a county in a State where you can get it, if in the US. I would keep it simple. You can always dilute it by four and make a cocktail iif you get tired perfuming!

  35. #35

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Yes, you *CAN* use Everclear, *IF* it is the 190 proof version, and *NOT* the 150 Proof version.

    The 190 Proof version is a lot harder to find. While buying Perfumers Alcohol by internet mail order is A LOT easier.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  36. #36

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Yes, you *CAN* use Everclear, *IF* it is the 190 proof version, and *NOT* the 150 Proof version.

    The 190 Proof version is a lot harder to find. While buying Perfumers Alcohol by internet mail order is A LOT easier.

    PK
    Five minute walk to the liquor store to get 190 proof (and my favorite whiskey) is way easier than mailing and shipping, so just depends.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    There are also Internet liquor stores that sell the 190 proof, though there may be some states that they cannot ship to. That list won't be as extensive, though, as the list of states that don't allow it in stores.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Five minute walk to the liquor store to get 190 proof (and my favorite whiskey) is way easier than mailing and shipping, so just depends.
    Then Smellthis, you are fortunate. I can't get it in Calif or even Nevada. Haven't tried AZ yet, because I'm not there enough.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  39. #39

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Check the Wine Chateau web site. They offer Everclear, 95%, one liter, with shipping from New Jersey (which costs more than the product), came to $46. I appreciate that there is no denaturant in it. The laws about this stuff are odd. It is not legal for it to be sold in my state of residence (Florida), but it is legal to purchase via the internet and receive through the mail. They will only sell and ship to individuals in states where it is legal to purchase in like manner. They provide a list of the states that they cannot ship to in the terms and policies section.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Homemade Oil/ Alcohol Perfume Troubleshooting: Carrier oil doesn't bond with alcohol.

    Thanks Islarom,... I'm actually able here in So Cal to buy a gallon of 200 Proof undenatured alcohol for a price of about $25. same with 190 proof Perfumers alcohol. I just have to order it, and go pick it up. So, I don't have to seek out the other alternatives like Everclear.

    As long as I buy only 5 gallons per year, I can even avoid the taxes. Over 5 gallons, and I start to pay taxes on them.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

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