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  1. #1

    Default Leather, now what?

    I have been working on for the past 8 weeks or so a leather accord using only naturals. I had some stinky stuff that I thought was irredeemable but did, in some moments have a vague reminiscence of leather....sort of. But it was hollow, metallic and just odd. When my new materials arrived recently I thought why not and dabbled some more with this concoction just trying to see if it could be turned into anything at all. After another 2 weeks rest I have....a leather accord. It's quite a strong leather note, being like the smell of a fine pair of boots or a leather folio. It's not light like gloves or suede or handbags. And dries down powdery, floral but still leather.

    My question is, what do I do with this? Leave it and wear it as it is. It's quite nice and I can't stop sniffing it. But a straight leather fragrance has never been anything I'd been into before. Or should I try and evolve it into something more? I'm a bit scared I'll upset the balance and end up with a mess again. Maybe I should just enjoy the delightful accident for what it is.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    *I THINK* that you should do this:

    1. Enjoy it for what it is. Be with it, wear it, learn from it, learn what it might be when it grows up.
    2. Savor your victory that you've sought for. Fragrance Creation is a patient pastime. It cannot be rushed usually.
    3. Work on something else now, and after you relish your success, wear it, and learn what is in it's facets, then, put it aside.
    4. Come back to it in 3 months when you've forgotten what it smells like, and conduct an evaluation as to what you think of it then.
    5. Upon your 3 month review, envision what will compliment it and fill it out even further, and build a fragrance with it as a major part.
    6. HAVE FUN!
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Thanks. Nice idea. I think I will do that.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    I am no perfumer, so I cannot help with the details. But two of my favorite frags are leathers, and you could play on the same accords. Bandit is leather + galbanum - s&m effect. Jolie Madame is leather + violet: whips and laces.

    cacio

  5. #5

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    I think pkiler has given some very sound advice; these things take time. Apart from the two fragrances mentioned, you could look at an Aromatics Elixirs type of fragrance; leather plus jasmine. I have thought that Leather with Sandalwood and Tea Rose would make a fabulous fragrance.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Loads of good advice here.

    I'll just add that whatever else, I trust you have the formula carefully recorded so that you can make more of it when you want to: if not get it recorded now before you forget what you did.

    That being so you can always have a play with it whenever the mood takes you. If you find you've upset it with whatever you added, you can always make some more of the original version and start again. I do this all the time. In fact when I've made a successful accord I often split it into several equal parts so that I can try out a few different things and compare them.

    Paul's item 6 is the key!
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Thanks Chris, I did carefully record the formula in every incremental step and wrote notes on what each incarnation smelt like. Looking back I see I have frankincense in there which surprises me because I don't remember adding it. Good reaon to keep notes I suppose. I think I might make another batch just to ensure its repeatable and to play with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I think pkiler has given some very sound advice; these things take time. Apart from the two fragrances mentioned, you could look at an Aromatics Elixirs type of fragrance; leather plus jasmine. I have thought that Leather with Sandalwood and Tea Rose would make a fabulous fragrance.
    Nice suggestions David. I adore Jasmin and can't get enough if it. I'm thinking about a Jasmin\tobacco scent soon. I have a lot of trouble with rose though, it seems watery and tends to just meld into other materials rather than standing out. I guess I'll have to get some aromachemicals to help it out if I want to make it a feature note. My first inclination was for a rose leather combo but the leather kept drowning it, adding a little geranium bourbon helped but then I get a herbal note with that which isn't always desirable.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    [QUOTE=ClaraAus;2820387Nice suggestions David. I adore Jasmin and can't get enough if it. I'm thinking about a Jasmin\tobacco scent soon. I have a lot of trouble with rose though, it seems watery and tends to just meld into other materials rather than standing out. I guess I'll have to get some aromachemicals to help it out if I want to make it a feature note. My first inclination was for a rose leather combo but the leather kept drowning it, adding a little geranium bourbon helped but then I get a herbal note with that which isn't always desirable.[/QUOTE]

    These things take time, and a lot of trials. I'm sure you will get there. Rose notes can be difficult to play with, depends what you have available.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Well, I'll update since I let this sample sit for a year. It's better than ever although a good deal more powdery in the drydown than previously. I've used it all up just dousing myself in it. Never did get around to doing anything else with it. Silage wasn't great (it doesn't have any synthetics) but it was enjoyable and I'll mix up some more in the future for the fun of it. Thinking I want it to be more astringent this time, more wood I think and a touch more herbals, maybe I'll add a hint of galbanum to cut through the powder. Vetiver just becomes powder on me so does Jasmine. I dont get any exotics from them even though they smell great in the bottle.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Hello again. Nice to hear your leather was enjoyable. Another idea may be to type in leather in the search by notes and see what other perfumes get suggested to see what they used with a leather accord. Might spring some nice ideas.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Hello again. Nice to hear your leather was enjoyable. Another idea may be to type in leather in the search by notes and see what other perfumes get suggested to see what they used with a leather accord. Might spring some nice ideas.
    Will do. Liking the bandit-variation, idea as a starting point. But I think I really want to tweak the original formulation to make it more horse sweat and less powder. It's a bit too polite as it is, I'd like it to be stronger and more raw. Funny thing was, it did go through a horse sweat stage, now if only I can figure out which materials produced that.....

  12. #12

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Okay so I reworked this one. I wanted it drier and edgier, so I took out the softening elements like vetiver and redid it with the strident herbal notes then filled in what was missing. I think (fingers crossed) I got rid of the powder. It needs to rest but the bones seem okay, It's a bit herbal still but what I've been wearing around the last 2 hours is very wearable and it lasting too. The green tea notes in the Jasmin sambac oddly work really well with birch tar and cedar. I've been comparing it to an italian leather travel bag I have. The bag doesn't smell as exciting but they echo each other in some respects.

    I dont really know what leather scents actually smell like, since that's never been my style of perfume and I dont have access to a large perfumery where I live. But I'll revisit this one in a week or so and see how it's melded and what the dominant notes are then.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaraAus View Post
    I dont really know what leather scents actually smell like, since that's never been my style of perfume and I dont have access to a large perfumery where I live. But I'll revisit this one in a week or so and see how it's melded and what the dominant notes are then.
    Apparently the leather fragrance to compare to is Knize Ten. I really hope there are better leathers than this,
    but it has a dryness and dirtyness that might interest you; almost a cat-pee phase in the middle.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaraAus View Post
    Will do. Liking the bandit-variation, idea as a starting point. But I think I really want to tweak the original formulation to make it more horse sweat and less powder. It's a bit too polite as it is, I'd like it to be stronger and more raw. Funny thing was, it did go through a horse sweat stage, now if only I can figure out which materials produced that.....
    Well cumin is supposed to smell like human sweat, so add some horse. I'm not very familiar with horsy smells. Castoreum trace plus musk plus hay notes perhaps.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Well cumin is supposed to smell like human sweat, so add some horse. I'm not very familiar with horsy smells. Castoreum trace plus musk plus hay notes perhaps.
    para Cresyl Phenyl Acetate does a pretty good imitation of horse, especially if you put it with some other animalic ingredients. Itís a big, powerful ingredient, so approach with caution: when Iím dissolving a batch of crystals the entire place reeks for a couple of days afterwards.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    I'd have to disagree about knize ten being the reference leather though.... :-) and not just because I make leathers... :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  17. #17

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    So I'd like to use some synthetics but I hate working with alcohol. Mostly because alcohol based sprays just do not last on my skin. It doesn't matter whether it's a commercial perfume or a homemade one, if it's in spray format the effect last about 5 secs. But I get good longevity with an oil based perfume. But I'm assuming all these synthetics require dilution in ethanol?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaraAus View Post
    So I'd like to use some synthetics but I hate working with alcohol. Mostly because alcohol based sprays just do not last on my skin. It doesn't matter whether it's a commercial perfume or a homemade one, if it's in spray format the effect last about 5 secs. But I get good longevity with an oil based perfume. But I'm assuming all these synthetics require dilution in ethanol?
    Well they require dilution in something but it doesnít have to be ethanol. IPM works well with many fixed oils, so para Cresyl Phenyl Acetate could be pre-disolved in that, or for that matter directly into your other ingredients (itís just harder to use a small enough amount doing it that way).

    Most synthetics are liquid to start with though and so no more difficult to handle than, for example, lavender oil.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Well they require dilution in something but it doesn’t have to be ethanol. IPM works well with many fixed oils, so para Cresyl Phenyl Acetate could be pre-disolved in that, or for that matter directly into your other ingredients (it’s just harder to use a small enough amount doing it that way).

    Most synthetics are liquid to start with though and so no more difficult to handle than, for example, lavender oil.
    Okay. The other problem then becomes sourcing a relevant solvent, how does one find out the solubility information for the more common chemicals? I understand they are all sourced from various manufacturers so does that mean I have to track down the origin for each one and have a look at the MSDS for the solvency information?Here in AUS for small amounts (less than commercial quantities) we have very limited access to solvents. I think I can only get DPG for a reasonable price the others are prohibitively expensive, even getting ethanol here is a hassle.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaraAus View Post
    Okay. The other problem then becomes sourcing a relevant solvent, how does one find out the solubility information for the more common chemicals? I understand they are all sourced from various manufacturers so does that mean I have to track down the origin for each one and have a look at the MSDS for the solvency information?Here in AUS for small amounts (less than commercial quantities) we have very limited access to solvents. I think I can only get DPG for a reasonable price the others are prohibitively expensive, even getting ethanol here is a hassle.
    Some solubility information is on the TGSC site, though it is far from complete, even an MSDS wonít usually tell you that. Other than reference books Iím afraid itís just stuff you have to know. In most cases it really isnít a big deal though - the main exception being the solid musks, which can be a pain. Most things will work in DPG.

    Iíd have thought IPM was available somewhere that will deliver to Australia - if it isnít you might be able to persuade Mark Evans to stock it as part of the Hermitage Oils Australia outfit (although Iím involved with Hermitage main business I donít currently have any involvement with the country specific ones): worth asking.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    The animalis base has some "horse" character. Also, goat hair musk can contribute to a horse like note. Vertofix coeur can add to a horse effect, I think.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    The animalis base has some "horse" character. Also, goat hair musk can contribute to a horse like note. Vertofix coeur can add to a horse effect, I think.
    Never tried goat hair musk but it sounds a likely candidate. Vertofix is a good call - and thereís a very good chance para-Cresyl Phenyl Acetate will dissolve in it too - vertofix is a very versatile material, but with animalics it does tend to go particularly well.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Never tried goat hair musk but it sounds a likely candidate. Vertofix is a good call - and thereís a very good chance para-Cresyl Phenyl Acetate will dissolve in it too - vertofix is a very versatile material, but with animalics it does tend to go particularly well.
    Thinking about it Tonquitone is decidedly horsey too
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Leather, now what?

    I've tested my mix again after resting overnight, very happy with this on late drydown it has something of real leather, but I do think it needs some musk or animalics to bring it alive. Off to the Hermitage Oils site I go. I'll take a chance DPG will do the trick and get a little handful of synths. Funny you mention goat hair musk because I used labdanum for exactly that goaty quality it has. In fact I get more goat from that material than anything else, it's a strange mix of stinky goat and cola.

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