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Thread: banana

  1. #1

    Default banana

    Hi all, I'm looking to figure out the best way to add a very subtle banana note to a perfume.

    Here are results of the research I've done so far, some possible candidates:

    "banana essence"
    banana shrub oil mischelia fuscata
    musa sapientum fruit extract
    musa paradisiaca leaf ex
    2-pentanone
    furfuryl acetate
    musa acuminata fruit extract
    2-methapropyl acetate
    hexan-2-yl butanoate
    pantan-2-yl acetate
    octenyl methyl butanoate
    butyl acetate
    isoamyl proprionate
    allyl levulinate
    z-octenyl acetate
    isoamyl acetate
    isoamyl decanoate
    isoamyl butyrate
    isoamyl proprionate
    isobutyl acetate
    butyl butyrate
    furfuryl propionate
    goodscents banana fragrance
    banana fleuressence perfumers world
    ethyl butyrate
    2-methylpropyl acetate

    And here was another, prefabricated list:

    2-t-butyl-4,5,5,-trimethyl-3-oxazoline banana, butter, cool, fresh mint, mint,
    pentanal (valeraldehyde) aldehyde, banana, grass, lower aldehyde, oily green, pungent,
    2-methylbutanol alcoholic, banana, iodoform, vinous,
    3-methylbutanol (isoamyl alcohol) alcoholic, banana, green, malt, sweet, vinous,
    4,5-dipropyl-2-isopropyl-3-oxazoline banana, cool,
    (Z)-4-octen-1-yl butanoate banana, bright, fruity, heavy, ripe, smooth, sweet, whiskey,
    pentan-2-yl acetate banana, bright, fruity, pear, solvent, succulent, sweet,
    pentan-2-yl pentanoate banana, fatty, heavy, pear, sweet, wine,
    hexan-2-yl butanoate banana, bright, fruit flesh, fruity, pale, ripe, sweet,
    pentan-2-yl butanoate banana, fruit flesh, pale, slimy, sweet,
    (Z)-4-decen-1-yl butanoate apple, banana, blood orange, fatty, vegetable,
    2-methylbutyl acetate banana, ester, solvent, sweet,
    2-methylpropanal baked potato, banana, grain, green, green malt, harsh, melon, pungent, repulsive, sour, sweet, varnish,
    3-methylbutyl acetate apple, banana, ester, solvent,
    2-methylpropyl acetate banana, fruity, sweet,
    (Z)-4-octen-1-yl 3-methylbutanoate banana, bright, cool, fruity, green, melon, sweet,
    3-decanone banana, sweet,

    As you can "plantainly" see, () this list is somewhat overwhelming. At this point, these are just words on a page, and I'm not sure how many of these things are serious candidates. However, all these things appear to pass muster in terms of available info. So if anyone is experienced with this particular scent, any advice to narrow things down would be appreciated.

    IMO, things that are generally very useful for perfumes should take precedence, and I'm not personally looking to create "the most comprehensive banana accord ever", necessarily; or a complete banana perfume. -- Just a smooth, creamy hint of banana that is almost below awareness; an olfactory shape, quality and texture. I do realize that in order to have the musky, creamy and musky aspect, some other aspects, such as a sulfuric or rotten note, might be required.

    Hopefully the list provided can be of some use to someone also, overkill notwithstanding.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st November 2013 at 08:16 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: banana

    The basic Banana accord consists of amyl acetate, cis-3-hexenol, and eugenol. Add anything else that you think is suitable.

  3. #3

    Default Re: banana

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The basic Banana accord consists of amyl acetate, cis-3-hexenol, and eugenol. Add anything else that you think is suitable.
    This is great, David!

    Probably what I'll do is combine that with one of the natural items listed, and one or two stinky things for the rotten, animal aspect (sulfuric, cheezy, animal), and one or two other listed chemicals that relate closely to the other notes in the perfume, as a bridge. I already have eugenol in the perfume.

    Nice to have a plan! Thanks.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st November 2013 at 10:37 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: banana

    Other things you might want to experiment with in addition to Davidís basic accord not instead, would be: cis-3-Hexenol Acetate (distinctively green-banana to me), Helvetolide and or Applelide (to give a fruity-creamy-musk base).

    Plus one or more of the following to give a ripeness to the smell: ethyl butyrate, ethyl-methyl-2-butyrate, isopropyl methyl-2-butyrate. The first is a bit more pineapple than banana, the others are very generic ripe-fruit notes that I think are useful in lots of accords.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and I read in Arctander that allyl uncdecylate has both a banana aroma and is a useful fixative. It isnít something Iíve ever used myself though.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: banana

    Before its use was restricted many folk thought that Methyl Octine Carbonate had a banana note. Undecavertol does too.

  6. #6

    Default Re: banana

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Other things you might want to experiment with in addition to David’s basic accord not instead, would be: cis-3-Hexenol Acetate (distinctively green-banana to me), Helvetolide and or Applelide (to give a fruity-creamy-musk base).

    Plus one or more of the following to give a ripeness to the smell: ethyl butyrate, ethyl-methyl-2-butyrate, isopropyl methyl-2-butyrate. The first is a bit more pineapple than banana, the others are very generic ripe-fruit notes that I think are useful in lots of accords.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and I read in Arctander that allyl uncdecylate has both a banana aroma and is a useful fixative. It isn’t something I’ve ever used myself though.
    Thank you very much. Chris I fell asleep tying a reply to this post a couple days ago, and am just now trying again. Sorry. I appreciate the resource preserving guidance from you and David immensely: "Let's see, I'll have a botttle of each.".

    Appelide was an interesting suggestion. (It's great to find a musk that somewhat matches the non-musk note you're going after) I had wondered about that one for that reason, and hadn't remembered that Helvetolide was fruity. The perfume already has a shot of ambrettolide, but adding another fruity musk would provide more support.

    I knew butyric acid was a fruity "ripe" note and is freshening and uplifting in traces. Seems like this chemical has more cousins, nieces and nephews than most other fragrance chemicals. It's the chemical in parmesan cheese, and is also animalic in the sense of being prominent on the human body. I'm wondering what the chemistry explanation is for why that smells fruity? I don't recall seeing it on a GC/MS, though I suppose it's produced by bacteria that eat fruit. The other basic chemical I'd experienced is acetic acid, the active ingredient in vinegar. A little trace can ripen a fruit note, essentially. But I was suprised to find out that these things have so many related chemicals in perfume chemistry, while I'd rarely read about the basic forms of those nature identical chemicals being used.

  7. #7

    Default Re: banana

    Both acetates and butyrates are found extensively in fruits, and in Perfumery. These Esters and others (Propionates, Valerates, etc. etc.) are made by reacting an acid (e.g Butyric Acid) and an Alcohol. Sometimes those esters break down to their component parts. Butyric Acid is very strong (and smells of stinky cheese) as is Acetic Acid (in dilution vinegar). Traces of these acids are found in overripe fruit, and so, by association,we think of them as fruity (in trace amounts). You rarely see them on a GC/MS print out because the are present at such low levels. A little goes a very long way.

  8. #8

    Default Re: banana

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Both acetates and butyrates are found extensively in fruits, and in Perfumery. These Esters and others (Propionates, Valerates, etc. etc.) are made by reacting an acid (e.g Butyric Acid) and an Alcohol. Sometimes those esters break down to their component parts. Butyric Acid is very strong (and smells of stinky cheese) as is Acetic Acid (in dilution vinegar). Traces of these acids are found in overripe fruit, and so, by association,we think of them as fruity (in trace amounts). You rarely see them on a GC/MS print out because the are present at such low levels. A little goes a very long way.
    . Since you said that I looked at several GCMS from a couple fruits and found that these chemicals were in every one I read, so obviously I just hadn't read GCMS's for fruits too much and that's why I couldn't "recall". There do seem to be lots of variants, and the other chemicals involved, for example valerianic (valeric) acids, are also important to consider. Unfortunately, () the only soution is to obtain samples of these things and learn their functions. Then I could imagine a kind of fruit smell and immediately know how to create it, based in the typical ways nature creates certain effects. Of course, you guys know all this stuff already.

  9. #9

    Default Re: banana

    How about banana co2 from Hermitage?

  10. #10

    Default Re: banana

    Will check it out, Nizan; thanks! Sounds nice.

  11. #11

    Default Re: banana

    Sometimes Dr Smell the neat chemical can be a little too strong to be pleasant. Butyric Acid smells a lot like bad Parmesan or even vomit, Valeric Acid smells like sweaty feet. Usually there are trace amounts of the parent acid in the sample of ester you have, so Butyrates always have a slight cheesy nuance etc. It is often difficult to gauge how useful something is until it is used.

  12. #12

    Default Re: banana

    In case you also check their cherry co2, let me know

  13. #13

    Default Re: banana

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Other things you might want to experiment with in addition to David’s basic accord not instead, would be: cis-3-Hexenol Acetate (distinctively green-banana to me), Helvetolide and or Applelide (to give a fruity-creamy-musk base).

    Plus one or more of the following to give a ripeness to the smell: ethyl butyrate, ethyl-methyl-2-butyrate, isopropyl methyl-2-butyrate. The first is a bit more pineapple than banana, the others are very generic ripe-fruit notes that I think are useful in lots of accords.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and I read in Arctander that allyl uncdecylate has both a banana aroma and is a useful fixative. It isn’t something I’ve ever used myself though.
    Seems the three butyrates you mentioned are used a lot in combination. Even though ethyl butyrate is pineapply, it is literally in bananas too. So it can't be "non-bananaly". I saw the latter two listed together mostly. But it sounds like all three should be candidates.

    I'm taking you up on applelide, most probably, as it seems from internet descriptions to have more compatible character than helvetolide, which sounds cleaner and more generic, though pleasant, versatile, popular, and useful.. I'm minimizing expenses every step, because if you have 100 ingredients, and are getting two for every one you use, it adds up. I believe there was an undecyl-related chem also listed in a banana GC-MS, but I will have to look again.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 30th November 2013 at 09:36 PM.

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