I went to the post office today to post something to America and was told that, not only could I not send the fragrance there even by surface mail, but as of July 15th 2013 you can't post fragrance Inland! I couldn't believe it. That means no more Internet sales of fragrances in the UK.
Last edited by lpp; 7th February 2013 at 12:18 PM.
Yeah, hadn't thought of other inland carriers. Royal Mail (or the Government) will only wreak international sales, then.
mmm - apparently they confiscate.
This'll get the economy on it's feet!
Somehow, fragrance has become the new plutonium. What did I miss?
sent from a mobile device - please excuse any swelling mistakes
Jesus, Royal Mail are a bunch of shirkers. I suppose if you're posting inland, you don't necessarily need to tell them that you're posting a fragrance. I know that with posting abroad you have to fill out a little form, but who says you have to tell them what you're sending within the UK?
Seriously though, Royal Mail need to get their priorities sorted.
Well - it's nice to know that I won't be receiving human remains, waste, dirt or filth, radioactive waste & uranium any time soon (or contaminated dressings, bandages & needles) - but deodorant? shaving & hair removal creams? (not on my to buy list really) high performance laptops? ELECTRIC BICYCLES!!!
Bit early for an April Fool's?
Might be a good time to set up a courier service.
- - - Updated - - -
- - - Updated - - -
Last edited by lpp; 6th February 2013 at 09:44 PM.
Seriously everyone, has the industry in general not reacted to these idiotic decisions? They are bound to drive some businesses who rely on web sales bust!! I agree with the comments that this is not going to help the economy get started (or even get tax revenues up!).
We need to take action from within the industry and get things moving!!
Since many letters are being replaced by emails & the parcel side was increasing due to the increase in online sales, it seems suicidal.
This link is for Business users currently posting within the U.K. - conditions differ from those applying to personal customers & detailed restrictions & conditions for scents apply:-
for personal consumers posting internationally:-
Not sure if this will all be altered again in July? The website was altered the other weekend.
Last edited by lpp; 7th February 2013 at 01:46 PM.
I can't believe this!! Another typical British fiasco from a bunch of freaks working in a desk in Whitehall. How on earth do they expect the economy to pick up or earn the country some extra tax revenue?
This is just trying to get online firms to close. Disgraceful.
What are we supposed to do now? Order from European sites that won't have these restrictions imposed on them? Or stop using Royal Mail and get ripped off by couriers?
I don't think it will effect professional online stores. They will have to use a courier service and it will go by land. There is a licence which operates in other countries for the shipping of perfumes etc. Its people selling on ebay and decants which it will hit.
Les Senteurs have had a notice on their site saying they can no longer ship internationally but are looking for a courier.
Maybe we can all start a perfume pass the parcel 'chain' where we each move any perfume parcels around the uk once a week only a very short distance each. Like a sort of collective package train that stops at certain stops on certain days and then gets collected by the next PPC (private perfume carrier).... It would take longer but it could work. Each sender could make a donation into a pot and the volunteer couriers chosen take mileage costs per month. No idea how to mastermind that, but it is possible in theory. Obviously time would not be of the essence, merely the delivery success.
I contacted Les Senteurs about the new UK rules starting on 13th July, here is the reply.
Our understanding is that we will still be able to provide our mail order service within the UK - provided packages contain fewer than 4 full bottles.
If the situation changes, we will be forced to use a different courier, and this may result in an increase in postage costs.
So below 4 bottles can be shipped okay within the UK.
Mumsy, there have been a few threads up on MUA about this. A woman in the UK had her perfume destroyed and she got the empty box back. She was sending to someone in the US. They will xray all packages in the future within the UK it seems as well.
What I'm curious about is why? The airlines are the ones parading perfume down the centre isle... has that been banned?
Gawd... it ruins all our international perfumes games as well as international trade.
- - - Updated - - -
Idea.... what if we put a bit of cotton wool in with a sample? it isn't then a liquid any more but a perfumed cotton bud. Then wipe it onto skin to smell it. Not ideal but ok for small samples for frag games and smelling samples or suchlike.
It seems that, at present, R.M. registered business clients can post within the U.K. with a special sticker & packaging controls.
Someone suggested bombs, I'd love to know the actual reason if any Royal Mail sorts are around?
Someone on Ebay reckoned that their local P.O. refused to accept an eyeliner pencil to Italy or somewhere!
On the leaflet it refers to the ' health, safety & wellbeing of employees & customers' & 'Transport Regs' but they are not named (i.e., Act, Section, para., etc.) so they are not directly quoting the legal reasons & the wording makes it look like a R.M. decision, but I could be wrong.
Maybe they're getting so many parcels with the increase in online sales that they're getting picky!
TNT, UPS, DPD, etc. are options? Expensive ones 'though.
What amazes me is how it just happened - the R.M. website was down for a day or so & wham!
Luckyscent send samples of Homage on blotting paper according to their website, but I've never tried that. & Serge Lutens send 'wax' samples sometimes.
And from Royal Mail 'News'
- still no actual law quoted.
- - - Updated - - -
This seems to be where it comes from, but publishes more info. on batteries than anything.
Off to check out the Chicago Convention!
Last edited by lpp; 8th February 2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: sorry, screenshot does enlarge!
Well I've just tried my first compliant package. I put a third of a ml of frag, then a cut up slice of cotton wool pad and inserted it in the vial. It absorbs all the liquid and can be applied off the cotton wool. I shall report back after the recipients reviews.
I have to say this is certain ruin for many small fledgling businesses as well as huge ones. Never mind the perfume industry alone, what about the bottle industry, the packaging industry and the paper industry to name but a few.
Complete lunacy, with health and safety gone quite mad IMO. How many planes and trains and ships have been blown up by a frag? I don't mind being asked to label them but banning them is bonkers for international trade.
Well done & good luck!
& totally agree - people are being told that work is available unless they're shirkers but this is exactly the kind of authoritarian pettiness that will cause even more unemployment.
From the little that I have been able to find online, the updated Chicago Convention regs. seem more concerned with lithium batteries.
'Restricted goods', referred to but un-listed, must be packaged properly, declared, etc., but the actual leaflets are only shown as cover pictures, not uploaded in full.
If any informed person can explain what on earth is going on & why , I'm sure that many of us will be most grateful!
Last edited by lpp; 8th February 2013 at 02:56 PM.
i think someone from perfume industry must be fighting for this splitting of perfume is probably something that bites into some profits too ? vintage market .....cheaper USA market....swap business
actually i am not surprised at all.....i was amazed they allowed it before...
i have bought some really cheap things on ebay...which here in Croatia i would pay doble at least!
Did anyone (private consumers) notice the 'extensive awareness campaign' promised before the updated regulations were introduced?
Last edited by lpp; 9th February 2013 at 01:35 PM.
I know for quite a while cosmetics to Germany and Italy must be unopened and original packaging. Hence on ebay you will get the message unable to sell to Germany or Italy.
Sigh. So it's true then: they are confiscating perfume parcels. I've heard similar from other sources.
Hmm....& I think that the 'news' article on their website (link above somewhere) has been updated (but not re-dated) since I first read it on Thursday.
OMG....... Is the UK turning into china now?
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Ė Winston Churchill
Well, this is the new *improved* Government that promised those inclined to believe them 'less Government'.....
Couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery imo!
(& China encourages trade!)
Last edited by lpp; 9th February 2013 at 07:55 PM.
This should be fun come July the 15th as Amouage, Harrods, Selfridges, Fortnum & Mason, Liberty's, Debenhams, House of Fraiser etc all use Royal Mail/Parcel Force for their fragrance mail deliveries.
The international restrictions have now absolutely decimated my splits and its not worth the lottery anymore as I've very recently had items confiscated.
Does anyone own a Horse & Cart?
It will end a lot of small/fledgling businesses.
I just can't believe that they had the front to sneak this in on us & are now making it look like it's always been the case (see the crafty wording in the 'news' article).
I'm not quite speechless, but ..........angry.
When I was a child, my Mother used to send food & clothing parcels to her family in the Soviet Bloc (clothing had to be fumigated - we had a special room for this).
In the mid 1960's, my grandmother was called to their P.O. & told that the practice had ceased as it made people realise that the evil 'West' actually had sheep, etc.
When it came back & the R.M. tried to charge my Father return postage......
This is uncannily similar in execution if not in ideology.
- - - Updated - - -
- - - Updated - - -
There is a forthcoming Public Consultation due in March (from previous experience of these - haha), but maybe we should all participate?
Petition is a good idea!
- - - Updated - - -
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 04:34 PM.
Someone on MUA had an empty box returned to her, she was shipping internationally. It was a discontinued limited edition L'Artisan, she sold to someone in the US. Royal Mail destroyed the fragrance.
Kron, read my post with reply from Les Senteurs. They will be able to ship up to 4 bottles at a time in one parcel. The same will apply to the big stores, shipping within the UK.
I was planning to order a few bottles from an online store in the Netherlands.
Does the panel think I should do this ASAP or can I continue to wait a bit longer (or should I not worry at all?)
I'm not risking purchasing from private individuals outside the UK, my reasoning being that they will be out of pocket if their parcels get confiscated. But are there risks if we buy from a EU business as well?
I'm very confused...
I honestly wouldn't mind some sort of limit on postage. Maybe a 250ml cap?
lpp, I only send decants and not that often. I thought everyone was panicking over buying from official stores? These according to Les Senteurs will still operate.
Honestly unless your petition can get at lest 100,000 the government won't even look at it. I sign petitions for different things, some work many do not, even when say 200,000 people have signed up. Can't remember who it was???? But someone who works in government said on TV once, people love petitions but in reality they do nothing, just because you start one makes no difference to government policy. They get hundred a week for different things.
If it is a EU directive, then no hope!
You could try writing to your MP, if everyone did that it might help.
Different rules apply to registered R.M. business customers, but they currently may not ship scents overseas.
Most importantly, since there was no apparent publicised advance notice, many people have lost out as R.M. are destroying their goods.
Totally agree about the petition - the Woodlands one seems to have helped, but was massive.
I guess we either have to stand up to this increasingly authoritarian attitude or just be quiet!
It doesn't only affect scent.
My M.P. wouldn't be much help!
E.U. countries seem to have different interpretations on what is permitted at present.
Until July, we won't really know the final situation - by then a lot of small businesses/start-ups will have gone under!
Ken - agree about a limit.
Wondering if it's to do with bombs 'though, since it has been so sudden?
Scentsucker - personally, I'd wait & see what happens in July.
We obviously don't know the full story.
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 09:34 AM.
Are you 100% sure we can't send fragrance within the UK network? I had a big sticker on a box (destination USA) that was returned to me with the contents removed and it said at the top:
ID8000, Consumer commodity permitted in UK domestic mail only.
(see flammable liquids)
Includes Edt, according to the notice in our local P.O.
I honestly wish that I knew - the RM website seems to change a lot.
Dangerous goods – important changes to what you can and cannot send in the post
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Department for Transport (DfT) and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) have agreed new rules with Royal Mail Group for sending small quantities of specific consumer items through the post to UK addresses.
The updated set of rules will limit the risk posed by those items when sent in the post. The change means that customers will be able to post toiletry and medicinal aerosols, nail varnishes, perfumes and aftershaves, which are currently prohibited, to UK addresses. They also mean customers can post alcohol up to 70 per cent ABV and electronic items sent with or containing lithium batteries within the UK. Customers posting such items will need to comply with volume/battery capacity, quantity, packaging and labelling requirements.
But then you read down the page a bit further and...
Royal Mail has published a new set of rules that will ensure specified low risk items can be transported safely through the UK postal network. They come into effect for contract and account customers on 14 January 2013. For consumers and non-account customers, they will come into effect on 15 July 2013.
So we can't send anything until July?. Can I send splits in the UK if I fix one of these ID800 documents then?
What an absolute shambles.
Well, I've only been following it for a few days & am only affected as a 'hobbyist', but it's clear as mud!
R.M. also seem to be editing the website but not re-dating the amendments at present - might be wrong here!
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 10:16 AM.
I'd love to be clear about a few things:
- Someone on MUA mentioned that larger professional sellers/department stores/etc. will have licenses to continue shipping - if that's true, then buyers may be ok?
- Will we still be able to use other non-Royal Mail carriers? My folks in the US tried to send me (in the UK) a bottle of perfume I'd bought from Barneys and had shipped to them. No carrier would take it. They were honest about what it was.
I think it's true that a petition probably won't get you anywhere. But letters to Royal Mail and the minister for Business, Innovation, and Skills can't do any harm. There's also Ofcom, the regulator with jurisdiction over the postal services. Letters may not change anything individually, but most businesses and public servants know that for every person who writes in, there are 100 others with the same complaint who don't.
The R.M. website now includes reference to other carriers.
And if you want a laugh
Kagey - It currently appears that registered business clients of R.M. may continue to ship within the U.K. with packaging controls, so you should be able to buy from these at present.
- - - Updated - - -
Just a hunch, but might be to do with the impending privatisation.
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 10:23 AM.
I'm currently waiting on a batch of samples from Surrendertochance.com and am getting increasingly concerned that I'm not going to get them :-(
Was there any parcel blowing up or causing damage or fire? Or it is again about profit and stopping alternative ways of buying perfumes?
ďArenít you a little short for a stormtrooper?Ē
- although if they include a pre-paid return label maybe it would be O.K.?
All adding to the cost of running a business in the U.K.
- - - Updated - - -
- - - Updated - - -
As I understand it the new rules are not yet fully in force, but once they are for packages containing perfume that are being sent only within the UK there is no problem, as long as you affix one of these labels and tick the appropriate box:
There are a different set of rule applicable to businesses that have accounts with RM but as I'm not one of those and I can still use the above on my packages I see no issue with anyone else doing so. Account customers can get the labels free from RM but I'm simply printing my own.
It is difficult to believe that this will advance anyones safety in any way, but at least it is still possible to trade, albeit with another expense.
Packages leaving the UK are another matter entirely and I don't have a viable solution to that at present.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for that, although the R.M. website under 'news' says this at present:-
The changes in July, which follow a review of Royal Mail’s position with the CAA, DfT and MCA, mean consumers will be able to post toiletry and medicinal aerosols, nail varnishes, perfumes and aftershaves, which are currently prohibited by dangerous goods regulations, to UK addresses
So they seem to be saying that perfumes,etc., have always technically been banned, but they wil be permitting them from July under the new consumer regulations!
Various areas of the website conflict at present.
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 08:24 PM.
Yes, that's my understanding exactly.
Hmm, there seems conflicting documentation on this. I was told point blank at the Post Office counter that from July 13th nobody can send fragrances inland. Perhaps the guy didn't mean businesses, or perhaps he didn't know, but he did make a phone call there and then to check whether his information was correct. I wasn't told anything about being able to affix a label to a parcel.
- - - Updated - - -
Maybe try another P.O. if you can?
I'm not surprised that he may have given you incorrect advice - when our Sub-Postmaster is away, the temporary clerk insists on Customs decs for the E.E.C.!
It seems that if rules previously existed, that they have not been enforced for years & that it may be sorted out within the U.K. in July ( for consumers).
Business sellers should be O.K. now within the U.K., with labels!
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 06:50 PM.
Theres mass contradiction pretty much all over the RM site regarding this. Plus I can honestly say none of the deliveries Ive received from businesses have had the id8000 sticker affixed.
Im going to make some calls tomorrow and try to find out whats the truth (Im not holding out much hope of the RM employees knowing either)
Very peeved off right now.
Some years back I went to a different post office to send a decant. The woman told me I was not allow to post perfume within the UK. I was also told the same about foundation!!!!
Yeah, staff training varies a lot!
Our local one's great, how long we have it 'though...
I have written a letter to the head boffin in charge of the post office new regs and am awaiting a response.
The main thing is to find out exactly what the official concerns are and then find a way around it. There is always a way.
It could be a number of things:-
1) A conspiracy by one of the major haulage companies to close down the post office and gain their business.
2) A ruse by the Inland revenue to stop second hand frag sales because they don't get any income from them.
3) A plot by the great perfume houses to stop new and niche businesses popping up to threaten their monopoly
4) Someone on high who is in charge of this is a spy and has another financial interest as yet unrevealed.
Whatever it is, you can bet it has a lot more to do with profit than any concern of public safety.
- - - Updated - - -
A copy of my letter:-
Dear Mr Eadie,
I have been reading about all the new legislations regarding perfumes and the sending of them. I am a keen vintage perfume collector and trainee perfumer. Please can I ask you a few questions?
I am observing that these prohibitions are already having a devastating financial effect on many hobby perfumers and on all the perfumery businesses both in the UK and abroad. It is important to understand more about what issues the new transport rules are concerned with in order to look for a way forward in order to prevent damage to the UK perfumery industry as a whole.
I just wondered if I could ask you why these laws had come into effect. Duty free perfumes have long been carried on aircraft and I presume these have the same legislation category for the CAA as perfumes in sent parcels do. Is this practice also to cease?
This international prohibition has been brought into effect from Jan 14th 2013, but the reviews are not due until July 2013. Six months is a long time for small businesses and hobby perfumers to be prohibited from International trading and it will have a long term negative effect on British business. It is already affecting the UK and International private sales and has brought down the value of private collections significantly.
I would really appreciate it if you would enlighten me for myself and on behalf of all my fellow perfume enthusiasts. I'm most curious to know how it can be possible for small UK perfumers to comply, and yet continue to flourish in the International market? Is there any legal way to send perfume abroad?
Will be interested to hear the response!
It is going to have a massive backlash to ebay profits too.
Another thing you cannot send is 'human and animal remains'. Whilst that initially looks fair enough, think again of all the fossil collectors who are going to be prevented from enjoying their hobby too. No matches allowed, so all the matchbox collectors done in too because it says 'of any kind', so presumably not allowed even with the fire tips cut off. No chemistry sets can be sent, not even toy ones..... and so it goes on.
The mail are shooting themselves in the foot.
What really is bothersome is the lack of time to implement this. It does feel 'sprung' on us. I cannot find much reference to any warning.
I feel the need to obtain all the perfumes on my hit list before July in case I can never smell them afterwards, but I already cannot purchase them from overseas. This has to be madness??? All our lovely frag games and sharing smells.....
Even Ebay seem to have been caught on the hop - they posted a warning 6 Feb.!
Last edited by lpp; 10th February 2013 at 09:36 PM.
Amouage Jubilation XXV for example; a 50ml retails for $250 here in the US. I would have to dedicate a good part of my day to drive to a store that sells the fragrance (if there's one available nearby), and then test it out. Even if I did like the smell, call me a cheapskate but I still wouldn't spend that much for a full bottle.
Now, I'm able to order a small sample online and then once I like it, pay 70 bucks for a 20ml split from here on Basenotes.
IMO the whole ability of receiving samples & splits over the mail is a major driving force for people to spend their money on niche fragrances. Removing that ability won't necessarily increase the fragrance house's sales, it would probably even hurt it.