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  1. #1
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    Default Need more projection / sillage

    I've created a nice honey & vanilla perfume using a variety of natural vanillas and a honey and beeswax tincture. It smells nice on a card and skin, but the smell is SO close to the skin. This happens with many of my perfumes. Any brainstorm of how can I get more lift from this fragrance? It's moderately long lasting. Cheers

    P.S. I tried labdanum and natural oakmoss. Oakmoss made the strong a little stronger, but nothing is really helping it to project away from the skin. On one formulation I had jasmine and geranium in there which gave the desired effect, but changed the scent too much. I'm aiming for more of a "vanilla filling the room" smell.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Dear Ambolt,
    i notice a lot of the molecules you describe are base notes. They tend to stay close to the skin.

    Generally speaking, projection is directly dependent of the weight of the molecules.
    Hence, the more top-notes (light weight molecules) and the more alcohol (evaporation), the bigger chances are you will gain in projection.
    Secondly, if the top-notes contain light weight molecules with big impact, normally aroma chems, that one would dilute to 0.1% for normal usage, the projection will be greater too.

    On the other hand, using *only* light weights, will not give you any base that provides wearability over a few hours, or even minutes. It should be a balancing act between top-heart-base notes, generally speaking 60:25:15. If your composition lacks on silage and projection, pump up to 70:20:10 in the tops, IMHO. Or even 80:15:5, when some heavy weights in middle and base tend to convert your composition to "mud".

    For the desired vanilla effect in the room, take a look at TGSC and look for the chemicals with a vanilla scent and have a low molecular weight. Ideally, your composition should contain some 'sweet' molecules in top, heart and base. The beeswax honey and vanilla are definitely base notes.

    Take a look at e.g. bezoŽ tincture, benzaldehyde, (ethyl) vanillin(e), linalyl acetate, methyl ionone, levistamel, vertraldehyde, and even de aldehydes like C11 undecyleen.

    Happy perfuming!

    Jeroen

    My formulation blog
    Last edited by jsparla; 13th February 2013 at 08:22 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    If you want to use only Essential Oils and Naturals (although I cannot see why) then you will not be able to achieve what you want, as there are no Natural materials that smell of Beeswax and Vanilla that are top notes. Your fragrance will stay close to the skin, because of the materials you are using. Should you wish to stray into the Synthetic Dark Side, then you will be able to improve your fragrances.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Phenyl ethyl acetate gives a sweet honey note.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Thanks it sounds like I need to start adventuring into the synthetic dark side. I've tinctured almost everything around me, lol.

    60:25:15 seems very top heavy. If I put that ratio of synthetic or citrus top notes to mid/base I feel like the base wouldn't really even be there in the mix of things? Some recipies I've seen, especially those at http://perfumerbook.com/ seem to be fairly consistently balanced between top/mid/base 1:1:1 any thoughts on this? David?
    Last edited by Ambolt; 13th February 2013 at 10:03 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambolt View Post
    Thanks it sounds like I need to start adventuring into the synthetic dark side. I've tinctured almost everything around me, lol.

    60:25:15 seems very top heavy. If I put that ratio of synthetic or citrus top notes to mid/base I feel like the base wouldn't really even be there in the mix of things? Some recipies I've seen, especially those at http://perfumerbook.com/ seem to be fairly consistently balanced between top/mid/base 1:1:1 any thoughts on this? David?
    As always, the answer is "depends on the type of fragrance you want". I have never divided up any formulation of mine in that way (in terms of numbers), but without thinking it usually came out the way I wanted it. If you want your fragrance to last a long time, then up the Base notes; if you want a very strong fragrance then use strong materials, or materials (like Hedione) that amplify the fragrance.

    I like to think of the structure of a fragrance in the same way as the structure of a painting. First of all you have a layer of the most opaque paint over which is layered paints of increasing transparency, through which the lower layers may be seen. In a painting the layers stay put, and colours are modified as light passes from the opaque to the transparent. In a fragrance the various layers evaporate over time, revealing the less volatile materials, but even at the beginning the Base note materials make their presence felt.

    There is a difference between strength and longevity however, and it partially the knowledge acquired over time that allows you to create what you want.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Hi Ambolt,

    60:20:20 is just a general guideline for someone who suffers with the base notes. ;-)

    As you study my perfume compositions you will notice i'm a heavy base user , some formulations convert to 20:20:60!

    But, you *must* know what you're doing to *not* end up in darkish mud, close to the skin, heavy on the nose formulations.
    Then again, it *is* possible to compose projection and sillage with a heavy base, but it's a *lot* easier done with high top notes

    And yes, *if* you find any commercial formulations like the ones mentioned of Glen Brechbill, you will definitely see a balancing act done well towards 1:1:1. That's especially true when they aim for linear perfumes (smells from first minute to last hours more or less the same). It all comes down to this delicate balance, the chems and oils used. All materials will behave different. But, if you want to make things easier in the first rounds of developing a new scent, power up the complex molecules (oils) and base in the latest phase of your skeleton construction. Just my 2 cents.

    Jeroen.
    Last edited by jsparla; 13th February 2013 at 10:36 AM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Jeroen, what does EO/PO/AC stand for on your formulations?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Hi Ambolt,

    EO = Essential Oil, the naturals
    PO = Perfume Oil (or: Fragance oil), usualy made up by a range of Aroma Chemicals and differently done by different suppliers
    AC = Aroma Chemical

    (tried to explain it on the homepage , 4th bullet from above)

    Best,
    Jeroen.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Cool, why do you add H2O in some of them?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Hi Ambolt,

    well, that's an excellent question, given the many 'debates and discussions' on this forum about the need and function of H2O in a perfume. Almost everybody seems to agree that H2O does not have a significant effect on a perfume, usually in the context of evaporation rates, projection and fixation. I tend to agree to the majority of the arguments given it has *no* effect.

    However, i do believe in UFO's

    Well, as a fan of single malt whiskeys, i know that a tiny amount of H2O will open up a complete new set of aroma's (usually esters) captured in the otherwise closed oils in the whiskey. I still believe it changes and attributes to the composition and makes a difference noticeable in the scent. However, most professionals here will disagree. But they don't believe in UFO's either

  12. #12

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Quote Originally Posted by jsparla View Post
    Hi Ambolt,

    well, that's an excellent question, given the many 'debates and discussions' on this forum about the need and function of H2O in a perfume. Almost everybody seems to agree that H2O does not have a significant effect on a perfume, usually in the context of evaporation rates, projection and fixation. I tend to agree to the majority of the arguments given it has *no* effect.

    However, i do believe in UFO's

    Well, as a fan of single malt whiskeys, i know that a tiny amount of H2O will open up a complete new set of aroma's (usually esters) captured in the otherwise closed oils in the whiskey. I still believe it changes and attributes to the composition and makes a difference noticeable in the scent. However, most professionals here will disagree. But they don't believe in UFO's either
    I don't believe in UFOs . . . but I don't think a small amount of water (by which I mean less than 5%) will do your fragrance any harm. So on the principle that you might as well be shriven just in case, you could put some in. ;-)
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Talking to the folks at L'Occitane, they add water to their fragrances, however they add either a variety of mineral waters which they say taints the smell of the fragrance in a positive way, or they add hydrosol or a combination of the two, especially if it's a toilette or cologne..

  14. #14

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    Water is for commercial reasons. The rest is rather good hype, but if you believe in it then do it. It does no harm unless an ingredient decides to cloud. I never add it.

    As for sillage. Try and learn all your own ingredients alone. Keep notes. It is like learning the colours for your painting. No-one can be expected to paint well without a full working knowledge of their paints.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    I agree about the commercial motive and the hype, however if you do want to add some water to your ethanol based fragrance then adding a hydrosol is a great idea because then you'll be adding additional odour molecules along with the water. Rose hydrosol for example contains most of the phenyl ethyl alcohol from the natural rose fragrance because it will dissolve in water - it therefore tends not to make it into the rose otto (essential oil). Similar effects happen with many essential oils. Of course they tend not to be very strong, most don't keep well and you can't add much without risking clouding or the whole perfume going off or both.

    Even so 5% or less of, for example, orange flower hydrosol would make a lot of sense in a cologne formulation, especially an aftershave type where you don't want too much alcohol sting going on.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Need more projection / sillage

    A little water seems to sometimes effect the odour strength a tiny bit at the front end (maybe by slowing evaporation?)
    "Donít try to be original. Be simple. Be good technically, and if there is something in you, it will come out. Ē - Henri Matisse.

    "Wear R de Capucci" - Hirch Duckfinder

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