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  1. #1

    Default Do you remember smells literally?

    I just realized that it might be impossible for me to become a true "nose". I was thinking about how I create a song in my head (I am a musician), how I literally hear notes and sounds, and how I can synthesis them. It seems to me that I can just barely "smell" things in my memory, sure I remember the way things smell as I am smelling them, and I can "combine" smells that I have recently smelled, but I cant call up any smell with the clarity I recall sounds (which are closer to a guided hallucination on my part). While I'm sure one can train this to a degree, I don't know whether it is possible to do without some sort of "talent" or early start. I know I trained my brain to compose music in my head, but I feel I was "born" with the ability to remember sounds with literal clarity. Do you find that you can recall smells literally? Did you train the ability? How long did it take? Techniques?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I don't know if our brain can recreate smells as well as it does sounds and images, but certainly, it can identify and distinguish dozens, if not hundreds, of smells when exposed to them. Just think about food - without realizing, we instinctively know what smells like what. But identifying smells in perfume is difficult because we've not consciously been exposed to them in isolation. The first step in a perfumer's school is to learn how each material smells. Then one can start combine them and learn accords, which, sometimes, the nose cannot perceive as separate combinations of smells, but as accords. But to do so one has to exposed to the materials - and these learning kits can be expensive.

    Then, of course, I'm sure to be a top perfumer one needs some special talent. You evidently have a special talent for music. But, even without a special talent most people can learn to analyze and enjoy music - and the same is true of perfumes.

    cacio

  3. #3

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I have begun using an "expensive kit" (it sure was!) and have started to identify single molecules and can break scents down. I simply cant "hallucinate" smells with nearly the same clarity I can sounds. Though when I smell things my brain tells me other things that would smell good next to it (like when I cook food) and I have minuscule glimpses or impressions of the next olfactory step. I was just wondering if it's even possible, and if the greats can do this sort of thing, and if it can be trained.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I've been training myself on perfumery materials for years now and I can get an idea on an intellectual level what two smells combined would result in, but I'm not able to actually perceive the smell. I don't know that such a skill is possible unless there was some synaesthesia involved.
    I read an article recently where they scanned the brains of professional perfumers and verified that the olfactory recognition parts of their brains were physically larger than those of the general populace. The brain is plastic and neurons are continually rewiring in response the their environment, so guess it could be physically possible, but I have never heard of anyone having such a skill. Would be nice.
    Actually, I do occasionally and randomly have smell hallucinations that are very realistic, but they are unbidden and are probably my brain freaking out after hard day of smelling LOL

  5. #5

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostrille View Post
    I just realized that it might be impossible for me to become a true "nose". I was thinking about how I create a song in my head (I am a musician), how I literally hear notes and sounds, and how I can synthesis them. It seems to me that I can just barely "smell" things in my memory, sure I remember the way things smell as I am smelling them, and I can "combine" smells that I have recently smelled, but I cant call up any smell with the clarity I recall sounds (which are closer to a guided hallucination on my part). While I'm sure one can train this to a degree, I don't know whether it is possible to do without some sort of "talent" or early start. I know I trained my brain to compose music in my head, but I feel I was "born" with the ability to remember sounds with literal clarity. Do you find that you can recall smells literally? Did you train the ability? How long did it take? Techniques?
    How long did it take to train yourself to become a musician? I think even Mozart had to practise his scales. It is possible to remember smells, and it is possible to predict (roughly) what a mixture of aromachemicals (synthetics and oils) will smell like. Indeed that is how every Perfumer works. Of course you need to smell the finished result so that you can tweak it if necessary, but the general idea can be imagined. It takes time, and a lot of practice, and it is something that has to be constantly done. Perfumers smell stuff, all the time to remind themselves and so they can remember smells.

    Now some people are better at it than others, just as some people are better musicians than others, but everyone can benefit by practicing.

    I have, occasionally, had a dream where I could smell something. The first time I did this, it was Ylang Ylang Oil; most strange.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Thanks guys! David, this may be a hard question to answer, but (if you please) what "percent" of the smell do you find yourself able to "hallucinate" when remembering a smell? With any sound I have heard I can realistically hallucinate about 93% of it. (meaning I can practically hear it in my eardrums, not in my head-where my inner voice is). Currently the best I can manage with smells is 0-7% (bacon, dojo, root beer) but I'm not entirely sure how to grow ths ability. Did you start with a greater ability than this? I feel like I can combine smells in my head, but the whole thing seems somehow removed. Also, I find myself holding my breath when I'm trying to remember a smell. I can recognize something that smells like something else (in part or whole) but I need a prompt, same with blending. I'm terribly afraid that I'm too old to rewire my brain and make this a useful endeavor. To answer your question, I always had the ability to memorize sounds, being able to compose in my head is what I had to train, that took about 6 years, I'm just not sure I could have developed the ability to "hallucinate" sounds through any technique.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Too Old?

    Are you just the young age as appears in your avatar?

    Then, No Problem.

    I started to learn perfumery at 45.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Too Old?

    Are you just the young age as appears in your avatar?

    Then, No Problem.

    I started to learn perfumery at 45.
    Phew. I'm 42 and start this week. I was a bit worried about being a late starter, but feel much better now. Thanks pkiler

  9. #9

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I mean, brain chemistry wise, for developing a better sense of olfactory memory. I am 25

  10. #10

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostrille View Post
    Thanks guys! David, this may be a hard question to answer, but (if you please) what "percent" of the smell do you find yourself able to "hallucinate" when remembering a smell? With any sound I have heard I can realistically hallucinate about 93% of it. (meaning I can practically hear it in my eardrums, not in my head-where my inner voice is). Currently the best I can manage with smells is 0-7% (bacon, dojo, root beer) but I'm not entirely sure how to grow ths ability. Did you start with a greater ability than this? I feel like I can combine smells in my head, but the whole thing seems somehow removed. Also, I find myself holding my breath when I'm trying to remember a smell. I can recognize something that smells like something else (in part or whole) but I need a prompt, same with blending. I'm terribly afraid that I'm too old to rewire my brain and make this a useful endeavor. To answer your question, I always had the ability to memorize sounds, being able to compose in my head is what I had to train, that took about 6 years, I'm just not sure I could have developed the ability to "hallucinate" sounds through any technique.
    It is really difficult to quantify. If you mention the name of a particular aroma chemical (and I use the term to cover both Essential Oils and synthetics) then, if I know it (i.e have smelled it before, and have learned it) then I can recall it completely. I can imagine the smell of it. I don't know if the visual and audial bits of the brain are easier to stimulate, or if they have been used so much more and so are, somehow, more efficient; but I agree that to remember a sound or a colour is easier than to recall a smell. Practice makes perfect. The more you do something, the better you become at doing it. Many amateur and beginner perfumers seem to concentrate on Essential oils, saying they are easier to work with. I always say that you should start with synthetics, as they have a simpler smell, and a simpler behaviour. It takes a long time, and could be described as boring, but smell each aroma chemical over a period of time. Make notes; and smell again, and again. Your odour memory may well take years to develop, and will need constant updating. Do not think that once you have developed this ability it is with you forever. It is necessary to be constantly working at it.

    And by the way, I was 24 when I started training as a Perfumer, so you have plenty of time.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    The last time I smelled benzyl acetate was over thirty five years ago, but it was exactly as I remembered it as I opened the bottle the other day. So I think I can recall some smells quite easily.

    I have to turn the radio down to concentrate on smelling some things, things that are unusual and I'd like to remember. Maybe that would help?

    -

  12. #12

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Skelly, I just recently stopped listening to music while blending, and have seen a tremendous improvement in the quality of my experiments!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I cannot repeat often enough, it takes time to train your nose, and you must practice all the time.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I agree totally that smells can be 'imagined', or recalled.
    I'm only starting to really try to make things, but can clearly bring to mind the smells, not only of old scents, flowers, etc., but so many different things - maybe old age does have compensations - the brain must store these things if they are important enough!

    Musicians understand music differently to other folks - I've been listening to jazz since the 1960's, but know that I appreciate it more 'instinctively', so therefore way differently to a trained musician (& daughter's b/f's a pianist/keyboard player).

    Anything worth doing takes practice & a degree of determination

  15. #15

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    It is really difficult to quantify. If you mention the name of a particular aroma chemical (and I use the term to cover both Essential Oils and synthetics) then, if I know it (i.e have smelled it before, and have learned it) then I can recall it completely. I can imagine the smell of it. I don't know if the visual and audial bits of the brain are easier to stimulate, or if they have been used so much more and so are, somehow, more efficient; but I agree that to remember a sound or a colour is easier than to recall a smell. Practice makes perfect. The more you do something, the better you become at doing it. Many amateur and beginner perfumers seem to concentrate on Essential oils, saying they are easier to work with. I always say that you should start with synthetics, as they have a simpler smell, and a simpler behaviour. It takes a long time, and could be described as boring, but smell each aroma chemical over a period of time. Make notes; and smell again, and again. Your odour memory may well take years to develop, and will need constant updating. Do not think that once you have developed this ability it is with you forever. It is necessary to be constantly working at it.

    And by the way, I was 24 when I started training as a Perfumer, so you have plenty of time.
    Totally agree ^^^^

    David: do you still 'train' or smell things on a daily basis? Or did anything change after your retirement?
    Customized consultancy on perfume formulation, safety, training and marketing & olfactory research
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Hmm, my body is interesting. I go about most of the day normally not being too conscious of everything I'm smelling, but I can switch into "perfuming mode" if I start focusing very hard on smelling/formulating perfumes. When I get into it I experience what you guys do with thinking about what would combine well with whatever is in front of me. But the exciting part is if I take a break, and go to the mall. Wow! My nose is crazy, it leads me everywhere shopping. I once smelled a hairdressers store 6 stores down from where I was, and because I couldn't see it and didn't know it was there, I was confused and intrigued as to what the smell was / where it was coming from. As I continued walking I finally identified that it was the barbers, though I wouldn't say the smell was strong by any means. When I'm in this mood I get a little like the guy from the movie "perfume", and I sometimes start smelling random things like rusted metal and dreaming about how I might capture such strange scents. When I'm in this mood I can close my eyes in a neutral-ish area, take a deep breath in through my nose, and remember many smells that are very familiar to me almost as if I'm smelling them. It works the same as taste, you can sometimes imagine and almost taste something like chocolate that you are familiar with. Although strangely I find less appealing scents and tastes easier to remember - brussel sprouts, lettuce, and weet biscuits; the smell of denatured ethanol, the attic smell of my old chemistry set, and burnt toast. Try imagining these things very hard and you might be able to remember what they smell like.

    I don't think we can ever remember exactly though, but isn't that like remembering anything else? I find it very hard to remember faces in a way that I could draw them (assuming I could draw them face-to-face) or describe them to the police, yet I can dream about them, see enough of their facial features, and know it's them.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    Totally agree ^^^^

    David: do you still 'train' or smell things on a daily basis? Or did anything change after your retirement?
    Sadly not, I do not have any aromachemicals to smell at home. So, I guess, my ability to remember smells (my odour memory) and my ability to imagine what those are like when mixed together, are slowly going away.

    Ambolt, love your story; how wonderful for you to be able to experience smell in that way. Interesting that you can remember the bad smells better than the nice; I have found the same thing. I think it is a mechanism of defence; you can remember the bad stuff, the stuff that might do you harm more easily than the good.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Sadly not, I do not have any aromachemicals to smell at home. So, I guess, my ability to remember smells (my odour memory) and my ability to imagine what those are like when mixed together, are slowly going away.

    Ambolt, love your story; how wonderful for you to be able to experience smell in that way. Interesting that you can remember the bad smells better than the nice; I have found the same thing. I think it is a mechanism of defence; you can remember the bad stuff, the stuff that might do you harm more easily than the good.
    Wow, David, now I can appreciate your skill even more! Thank you so much for sharing your vast experience with us here, not many people realize how precious this is!

    Ambolt, I also love your story, that is exactly how I'm wired too
    Customized consultancy on perfume formulation, safety, training and marketing & olfactory research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I am only 1 year into perfume obsession, smelling so many new perfumes.....and i did it really obsessively, led by huge curiosity and wanting to learn how to tell the notes apart, and now after a year i can recall so many things even those i smelled at the beginning if they moved me. If something is boring then i kind of forget it, but i think i have good memory on smells:-) i can tell what some perfume smells like the same as Cacio said i can remember taste of dishes i tried in my life, those most delicious will always remember lol

    Was very happy to learn that my nose could tell a difference between 2 versions of Ubar . Smelled 1st version more then a year ago 3-4 times, i stored it in my memory as such a beautiful frag, when i bought it 1 year later....something was too simple there and soar, took me about 7 days to realize something is different there, first i thought i am subjective:-) ...and i did side by side test and my memory was right! Those 2 Ubars were not the same! Subtle difference that i memorized from feelings! Was so surprised.

    and i think talent is always accompanied by huge interest in some area......one feeds on the other so to say:-)

    And how can you expect to have certain level of skill if you did not spend hours , years practicing it?:-)

    And now when i break down certain scent , and i can replay every single accord and note in my head, i loose interest in it, like when you play the one song you like for months then you cant hear it anymore:-) and i seek for frags that will keep my interest as long as possible, like keep my mind busy , whne they smell somehow different every time i put them on:-)

    But lets say frags like Y fro YSL, and all those with white flowers, chypre ....oh they are not so clear in my head ...its like i have to make a difference between white and white....i cant smell it, i feel hard to get interested there and moved...and just dont feel it:-) ....

    In a way i admire so so much to male perfumers who make great female scents!! If i am perfumer i would always make what i like only lol........

    And i just think its hard work , making perfume from ingredients that constantly change in quality so you have to tweek formula....etc.....in music you just play the same note over and over again:-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambolt View Post
    Hmm, my body is interesting. I go about most of the day normally not being too conscious of everything I'm smelling, but I can switch into "perfuming mode" if I start focusing very hard on smelling/formulating perfumes. When I get into it I experience what you guys do with thinking about what would combine well with whatever is in front of me. But the exciting part is if I take a break, and go to the mall. Wow! My nose is crazy, it leads me everywhere shopping. I once smelled a hairdressers store 6 stores down from where I was, and because I couldn't see it and didn't know it was there, I was confused and intrigued as to what the smell was / where it was coming from. As I continued walking I finally identified that it was the barbers, though I wouldn't say the smell was strong by any means. When I'm in this mood I get a little like the guy from the movie "perfume", and I sometimes start smelling random things like rusted metal and dreaming about how I might capture such strange scents. When I'm in this mood I can close my eyes in a neutral-ish area, take a deep breath in through my nose, and remember many smells that are very familiar to me almost as if I'm smelling them. It works the same as taste, you can sometimes imagine and almost taste something like chocolate that you are familiar with. Although strangely I find less appealing scents and tastes easier to remember - brussel sprouts, lettuce, and weet biscuits; the smell of denatured ethanol, the attic smell of my old chemistry set, and burnt toast. Try imagining these things very hard and you might be able to remember what they smell like.

    I don't think we can ever remember exactly though, but isn't that like remembering anything else? I find it very hard to remember faces in a way that I could draw them (assuming I could draw them face-to-face) or describe them to the police, yet I can dream about them, see enough of their facial features, and know it's them.

    Yes its the way our memory works , to make synopsis, you don't store every single detail.....but when you go over it you kind of add flesh to it:-) that's why it is tricky to rely completely on memory because it plays tricks on us:-) ....its from psychology and how the brain works, has nothing about perfume subject only, relates to anyhting.....
    Try recreating a film you watched:-) you memorize bone structure , and then you add flesh to it as you talk through it:-) you must recall it like a note to yourself....not all 120 mins of film flash in front of your eyes:-) if this makes sense hehe

  20. #20

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    If you said what ingredients were in a perfume, and if I was familiar with all the ingredients, then I hope I could have a fairly reasonable idea of the sort of area of smell it might be, but would need an idea of quantity to be nearer. I do think of smells in my mind and work out a perfume in an area of where I want it to be before mixing it up. I think I have enough of that sort of memory to obtain a rough sketch format, but no more accurately than a very rough sketch.
    But...
    then I might think of a sketch like that, and get a really odd surprise because sometimes the ingredients I am thinking of don't play together the way I was expecting them to. Smells feel like less predictable colours in a painting.

    When smelling a commercial perfume, I like to try to isolate the ingredients. Better so when I practice regularly and if familiar with them. I really like practicing that, sometimes by myself and especially on the blind sniff games. I hope to get better at that by learning some smells of the synthetics. It has been my downfall on that game on any modern perfumes by not knowing and therefore being unable to recognise synths.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    This is a great topic! I can invoke a scent by concentrating on it. I do not smell it literally, but my mind can. I know that sounds weird, but it is true. I also have a good memory for perfumes, even after having smelled them just once. I tested Chanel 19 about 20 years ago. I still have a memory of what it was like, and can recognize it when someone is wearing it. I can pick out notes that I know in a perfume, but only on a very amateur and limited level.
    I just think my memory is wired to be connected to scent. Most of my memories have scent connected to them. I know what pollinating corn smells like, what dusty gravel roads smell like...the smell of hickory when it is wet...violets..carnations. Thinking about them makes me almost smell them. As i review these scents in my mind, I start to think what notes and accords I will need to bring them out. My problem is a limited library of perfume ingedients. I then check the descriptions and will make my choices. If something doesn't work out, i will look for a different, but similar note or accord to try.
    When I was a child, even sometimes now, I smelled everything! It used to drive my mom nuts at the dinner table. I had to smell each thing before I ate it. I have also dream scents and I dream in color.
    I am an artist too, working in watercolors. I can see what I want in my mind before I even begin. I can see nuances of color..how I want use those. I tend to approach perfumes in the same way.
    Certain scents invoke strong moods for me too. It is almost as if I see the scent. When I think of perfumes I want to create, I first think of a setting..a mood...a story. Then I think about how I want to tell that story...how to paint the air. Now, I just need to practice. Since I haven't created any perfumes in 20 years, other than mixing commercial perfumes when I wear them, I have a lot of practicing ahead of me!
    Oh, I also have memory of touch and how things feel..another thing that I can almost, but never quite, literally feel. The one area I cannot conjure is music. I can't sing well and don't have a huge library of sounds.
    Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Very well put, Pumpkincoach!
    Our brains are truly fascinating places - what about people with synaesthesia too.
    Last edited by lpp; 4th March 2013 at 04:33 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I thought I might mention, last night I had my first dream with an odor in it (that I can recall). In the dream I was assessing a Gucci frag, and my mind tried to remember what it smelled like, but in real life I had only smelled the atomizer cap. It smelled mostly of stemone and styrax in my dream (which I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually smell of) in the dream I thought "no, that's not right" which woke me up because it made me realize I was dreaming.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Haha that's so interesting and cool. I can't say I've ever dreamt of smells.

    Last night I had a dream where I was on holiday and got the day to myself. I drove to the next town and saw a building with a huge sign that said "Pell Wall Perfumes". Of course I was in New Zealand, but I realised I must of got it wrong and that Chris actually lived in NZ not the UK, and that he had named his company after his home town.

    So I parked up and went into the building. It was a really flash modern building and everyone working inside were at different companies but all wearing suits. Kind of impressive for a holiday town. The light through the room looked white like the most prestigious district in the movie "In Time". I went looking for Chris and found he was supposed to be at a community meeting. Not seeing him, I sat down with regularly dressed folks from the town and listened to some people arguing about fishing laws or irrelevant information.

    I asked the guy next to me where Chris was, and he told me Chris was at another community meeting. So I left the building and went to the other meeting in a rush. I was so excited to meet the master perfumer. I found him!

    "Hi Chris"
    "Hi"
    "I met you on the basenotes forum"
    "Oh, yes!"
    "I'm ambolt on there"
    "Right, cool."

    Chris was very busy and was holding almost 3 conversations at once, since he was considered in equality to the mayor of the town; his leadership skills and perfume expertise were well in demand. That was our whole conversation, but I was still excited that I had met the real Chris Bartlett from Pell Wall perfumes.

    And that was that dream

  25. #25

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    Aw, hope has time to read that

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I had my first dream last night where I smelled scents, haha. It was awesome. I was in France looking around in a town trying to help a beginner french perfumer to create a scent that was made for female jockey cloth masks, to give them more invigoration when racing in the horse racing. His one smelled like moroccan rose, and I told him it was nice but not appropriate for what it was. We went to a horseracing town which sold essential oils, and when we pulled up they were selling candyfloss. Right then I could smell it and was convinced we needed a candyfloss top note which represented something of what the races smelled like. The communication was difficult between english and french, but I gathered he thought I was crazy, and his thought patterns were only with natural ingredients.

    After convincing him, we went on an epic quest in search for ethyl maltol. We couldn't find it for sale anywhere on the dusty streets of the french town, and so we took a mini-van down the hill to a farm, and he wanted me to plant some.

    O_____O
    Last edited by Ambolt; 7th March 2013 at 12:30 PM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    You do have nice dreams - and remembering them too

  28. #28

    Default Re: Do you remember smells literally?

    I remember them in terms of shapes. It's almost like I can "picture" what their molecules look like, in an exaggerated cartoony way.

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