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  1. #1
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    Default New project, lots of questions!

    Okay, all my startup materials have arrived. I am really excited. I basically ordered most of the things from the starting materials list on the blog set up by Chris.

    I have done a lot of reading so have a fair idea how to get going. I have lots of questions but for now:

    Some of the materials have come as solids and it I'm not sure how to deal with them. They are:

    Vanillin
    Celestolide
    Ethylvanillin
    Musk ketone
    Omega pentadecalacton
    Iriswortel
    Opoponax -really strange looking!
    Last edited by Shakster007; 24th February 2013 at 05:54 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    can you provide a link to the blog set up by Chris, I'm interested in crafting scents as well.....What does the Opoponax look like?


    Max

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Not sure if I am supposed to put in links but if you Google 'pell wall starter kit' it will be the first link. It has a picture of a young man in spectacles next to the link!

    Anyway, my opoponax looks like a bit of dried earth mixed with manure at the moment.

  4. #4
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Sounds like your opoponax might be a resin, or a resinoid that is undiluted/unliquified.

    Probably, (Although someone could contradict me...) all the rest of your solids can be added to your perfume oil concentrate and left overnight to allow them to dissolve into your concentrate.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    From hearsay, I haven't tried it yet--musk ketone will be difficult to dissolve. You need to choose the solvent carefully, I believe benzyl benzoate works, and stir for days (a magnetic stirrer is recommended). You can do a Basenotes search for more information.

  6. #6
    Super Member jsparla's Avatar
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    I managed to dissolve 1 gram of Musk Ketone in 10 ml of Benzyl Benzoate within 8 hours, room temperature, shaken every 2 hours. Rather quick

    My perfume formulation blog
    Last edited by jsparla; 25th February 2013 at 09:35 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakster007 View Post
    Not sure if I am supposed to put in links but if you Google 'pell wall starter kit' it will be the first link. It has a picture of a young man in spectacles next to the link!

    Anyway, my opoponax looks like a bit of dried earth mixed with manure at the moment.
    Goodness! As that picture was taken last year around my 51st Birthday I'm either weathering rather well or you're being excessively flattering (if the latter please feel free to continue . . .)

    Opopanax resinoid is normally rather like sticky toffee in consistency and should smell sweet and sticky too. It dissolves well in ethanol but is a fiddle to weigh out and needs lots of stirring. I find it best to weigh & tare the empty flask and spatula so that I can accurately weigh the stuff stuck to the spatula before adding ethanol and stirring until the spatula is clean. If I'm making more than a very small amount I'd then put it on an automatic stirrer to complete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakster007 View Post
    Okay, all my startup materials have arrived. I am really excited. I basically ordered most of the things from the starting materials list on the blog set up by Chris.

    I have done a lot of reading so have a fair idea how to get going. I have lots of questions but for now:

    Some of the materials have come as solids and it I'm not sure how to deal with them. They are:

    Vanillin
    Celestolide
    Ethylvanillin
    Musk ketone
    Omega pentadecalacton
    Iriswortel
    Opoponax -really strange looking!
    Vanillin and Ethyl vanillin are both very similar and will dissolve readily in ethanol or DPG - in the latter case you need a good deal of stirring, in ethanol it's not too difficult. You don't want too high a concentration, especially with ethyl vanillin, as they are strong.

    Musk Ketone - I use benzyl benzoate and ethanol together (50/50) and find that works well to get a 10% solution you can work with. To get a higher concentration than 10% is very difficult and in my view not worth the effort.

    Omega pentadecalocton is better known as Exaltolide (or Exaltolide Total - same chemical Exaltolide is at 98%, Exaltolide Total at 92% purity) and it is normally supplied as a single solid lump in the container. It will melt at about 50-60 oC so a hot water bath is the easiest way to get it liquified. At 50% or less in ethanol it stays an easy mobile liquid even in the fridge.

    Iriswortel is orris - presumably you have the so called absolute (technically it's an essential oil) also called orris butter. This is most easily dissolved in IPM. It is the high myristic acid content that makes it solid and that is poorly soluble in ethanol and as orris is expensive you'll want to give it as much help as possible. Again gentle warming by sitting the bottle in a hot water bath will melt the material.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 25th February 2013 at 05:23 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Chris
    I shall continue to flatter...I think your informative posts on this forum are one of the things that make it such a wonderful place to spend time.

    I see that I can get DPG and IPM from Mistral...so putting in an order asap.

    A few more questions:

    I am currently working on making 10% tinctures of all the oils and aromachems. I read on your blog where you advise 0.1% or 1% for some. But some I have mixed (am using perfumers alcohol) seem much stronger than others. For example, vetiver mixed 1ml:9ml was crazily strong! Any advice on others I should watch out for?

    Also, is there any way of adjusting your spreadsheet for using drops/ ml instead of weight? I know you advise by weight is your preferred method but I have no intention of selling and am making perfumes purely for my own enjoyment (with family members as guinea pigs!) plus need the ease factor of drops/ ml at the moment.

    Which reminds me, how many grammes of the solids should I add to 9ml of alcohol?

    Thanks again!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jsparla
    8 hours!!!

    Your blog looks very useful. Thank you!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I ordered only 1ml of Rose Otto EO as it is so expensive. I have diluted the 1ml I have to 10% in perfumers alcohol. However, it now smells very weak. Will it be too weak at this concentration if I later make perfume with it?
    Last edited by Shakster007; 3rd March 2013 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Sorry for the slow reply - all a bit hectic here at the moment - I'll see if I can give you some useful answers:

    Technically what you are making are dilutions, rather than tinctures. It's a tincture when you put a whole material into alcohol to extract the aromatics from it.

    There is a great deal of variability in strength and certainly vetiver is pretty strong. Galbanum, violet leaf absolute, lavender absolute and vanilla absolute are all pretty powerful naturals as well and I keep those at 1%. Lime is another one to watch out for as it's very easy to overdose, though I normally keep that at 10%.

    With the spreadsheet you can use any units you like in the 'formula' column and it will multiply up or down to give the correct proportions. If you do that though the calculation for bottle size will be wrong so just ignore that.

    You can get an approximately correct 10% dilution by putting 0.8g of solid into ~9ml of alcohol. Essentially measure 0.8g of solid into the bottle and top up to 10ml with alcohol (which will be roughly 8g of alcohol), approximate but adequate for your purpose I think.

    Finally on the rose oil, I keep mine at 10% and it should not smell weak. Depending on where you got it it is possible yours has been adulterated. It is something where a little goes a long way in improving a blend, however if you want a noticeable rose note then you'll need more. To save money, especially to start with, I would recommend using a good, industry standard, rose recreation instead. Rose Givco and Dossinia are both good options (I have both, De Hekserij have the Dossinia SA E on their standard list and I think Perfumers Apprentice stock Rose Givco), of the two Rose Givco is cheaper and more immediately recognisably rose (it is a recreation of Turkish rose oil), Dossinia is a deeper, greener interpretation.

    Hopefully that helps.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Thanks Chris, very helpful.

    Another question:

    I know it is recommended to get a good scale , but is there any reason something similar to this would not be a good idea:

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2711671871...84.m1423.l2649

    Thanks

  11. #11
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    I hope that you don't mind me answering... ?

    No, I can't recommend this scale because this scale will severely limit the scale of your formulations.

    This is the scale I use and recommend:
    http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my...lance-101.html
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Paul's right 10g capacity isn't enough. My scale has the same accuracy but will take 200g and I still find that quite limiting and therefore have lower accuracy, higher capacity scales that I use for manufacturing as distinct from blending.

    Details of considerations are on the blog here where there are links to two that I recommend.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post

    Opopanax resinoid is normally rather like sticky toffee in consistency and should smell sweet and sticky too. It dissolves well in ethanol but is a fiddle to weigh out and needs lots of stirring. I find it best to weigh & tare the empty flask and spatula so that I can accurately weigh the stuff stuck to the spatula before adding ethanol and stirring until the spatula is clean. If I'm making more than a very small amount I'd then put it on an automatic stirrer to complete.


    .
    I am about to try and dissolve the opoponax now but just wanted to check. The use of the word 'resinoid' above threw me a bit. Just to confirm, it is a hard solid and appears to have no moisture whatsoever, it does have some 'crumbs that seem to have fallen off. I ordered from Hekserij and Jan emailed me back after I asked, and advised that I make a tincture by leaving it in ethanol.

    Confused now

  14. #14
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Sounds like you've got the raw, unprocessed natural material (resin) and not the solvent extracted perfume material (resinoid). You can still tincture it but you'd most likely have to strain it afterwards.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shakster007 View Post
    I am about to try and dissolve the opoponax now but just wanted to check. The use of the word 'resinoid' above threw me a bit. Just to confirm, it is a hard solid and appears to have no moisture whatsoever, it does have some 'crumbs that seem to have fallen off. I ordered from Hekserij and Jan emailed me back after I asked, and advised that I make a tincture by leaving it in ethanol.

    Confused now
    According to Arctander there is an Opopanax Resin produced which is that which remains after the essential oil is extracted from the resionoid. This is distinct from the Opopanax Resinoid (sometimes called absolute, technically incorrect by Arctander's definitions but widely used nevertheless) which is an alcoholic extraction of the crude oleo-gum-resin material including all the alcohol soluble elements (essential oil and resins, but not the gum part or the detritus - sand, dust, splinters etc present in the material when first collected) but with the alcohol used for the extraction subsequently recovered. This sometimes has a plasticiser added (and may then be sold as 'mobilised') to make it easier to use. Without this, the material may be hard, like toffee, at a cool room temperature.

    BTW on spelling both Arctander and the OED give the spelling I've used as correct, though I notice that many, many suppliers use opoponax, I'm not sure why that should be.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 18th March 2013 at 05:52 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: New project, lots of questions!

    This is what the website says:

    Opoponax resin
    Opoponax, also opop a nax is the resin of the sweet myrrh bush, botanically mainly Commiphora erythraea although it also (partly) of other Commiphora species may come. The resin is from Ethiopia.
    Not to be confused with species of the family Opopanax, which is a completely different plant in Spain and other countries around the Mediterranean is growing.
    The resin can be used in perfumes by making a tincture. In addition, it can be used in incense mixtures. The resin is supplied in the form of fragments of unequal size.

    So, assume that I leave in ethanol to make a tincture rather than to try to dissolve in ethanol? Question then would be how much ethanol to use? I have 50g

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