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Thread: methyl ionones

  1. #1

    Default methyl ionones

    Please help me disambiguate the various methyl ionones.

    On Perfumer's Apprentice there are the following:

    Isoraldeine 70 aka methyl ionone gamma 70 . . . CAS# 1335-46-2 (labelled N-methyl ionone on TGSC)
    Isoraldeine 95 aka gamma methyl ionone 83% . . . CAS# 1335-46-2 (ie the same CAS# as above)
    Methyl ionone gamma 70 aka isoraldeine 70 . . . CAS# 127-51-5 (ie NOT the same CAS# as isoraldeine 70 above, and corresponding to 5 different entries on TGSC: alpha-iso methyl ionone 50% min; alpha-iso methyl ionone 60% min; alpha-iso methyl ionone 70% min; alpha-iso methyl ionone 80% min; alpha-iso methyl ionone 90% min)
    Methyl ionone gamma 95 aka isoraldeine 95 . . . CAS# 79-89-0 (ie NOT the same CAS number as isoraldeine 95 above, and labelled beta-iso methyl ionone on TGSC)

    Is the first really the same as the third even though they have different CAS numbers, ditto second and fourth? How do I know which TGSC entry the second on my list applies to, and what do the percentages mean? If you were recommending acquisition of a methyl ionone for general purposes, would you incline to one of these more than the others?--is one more recherche etc. (I don't know how to do acute accent.)

    Thank you . . . .

  2. #2

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    The chemical Methyl Ionone exists in many forms, called Isomers. They all have similar properties and similar (although slightly different) smells. The percentages mentioned, refer to the amount of each isomer (alpha methyl ionone, beta methyl ionone etc.). The number at the end of a descriptor (e.g. Isoraldeine 70) refers to the amount of the major isomer in that material. The name Isoraldeine refers to the Methyl Ionones made by Givaudan, as opposed to Methl Ionone made by another company. As is often the case, small amounts of other chemicals (impurities, if you like) can make a large difference tothe overall smell. The method of manufacture will produce slightly different amounts of these trace elements, and different amounts of each isomer, resulting in different smelling materials.

    Deciding which one to use, is up to you. They all smell slightly different. All Methyl Ionones have a powdery, woody floral, violet smell; but each types is slightly different. Some are more Violet, some more woody etc.

  3. #3

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    There is a really excellent chapter on Ionones in Bedoukian's Perfumery & Flavoring Synthetics that spends several pages explaining the various Methyl Ionone isomers and their differences (where know) by no means all the variants have been isolated - or at least hadn't when he was writing - unlike Arctander it's not an expensive book either, at least if you don't mind a used copy . . .
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #4

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    I second the recommendation of Bedoukian's book. I bought it after seeing a recommendation by Chris somewhere online, either here, the yahoo group, or his fantastic blog. If you are at all interested in the chemistry of many prominent perfuming ingredients its a great read. The section on aldehydes was quite enlightening for me. And I believe I got my copy only a month or so ago via amazon new for $25 in the US.

  5. #5

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    This Bedoukian book; is the more recent edition worth the extra expense? The 1967 version is dirt cheap. Which appeals to me.

  6. #6

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    Thank you and I've ordered Bedoukian. Renegade, I wondered too, but I've gone with the 1967 edition. The publisher makes the preface to the second, 1967, edition available on its website, but not the preface to the third. I am thinking that if the third edition featured important revisions the publisher would want you to know about it and would have made the preface available. Also, on Chris's website, the picture of the bookcase features a quite mature-looking Bedoukian.

  7. #7

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    Alysoun,
    A while ago I ordered the Raldeine A from Perfumer's Apprentice.
    I understand it to be Methyl Ionone Alpha Extra CAS# 7779-30-8. Also called "Raldeine A GV", but I do not see it in their catalogue now.
    I too was quite confused by the variations, so thank you for asking the question, and to David and Chris for clear explanations.

  8. #8

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    This Bedoukian book; is the more recent edition worth the extra expense? The 1967 version is dirt cheap. Which appeals to me.
    Sorry to be so slow to respond to this: mine is the 1986 3rd edition and as I don't have a copy of the 1967 I can't say what might be different in that, however I can say that perfumery synthetics advanced quite a lot in those two decades . . .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Updated: in the interests of promoting purchases of the book, here is a scan of the Introduction to the 3rd Edition:

    Bedoukian-3rd-edition-intro.pdf
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    Thanks Chris. I had actually ordered the 1967 edition but got an email back saying it wasn't in stock anymore. I'll take that as a sign...

  10. #10

    Default Re: methyl ionones

    Having read some Bedoukian, I'm still struggling. Bedoukian distinguishes between what he calls "normal methyl alpha ionone" and "iso methyl alpha ionone". He says the iso- is "by far the most intense" and "has the finest odor quality". Does N-methyl ionone CAS 1335-46-2 correspond to "normal methyl alpha ionone"?

    Chris, thank you for scanning the introduction to the third edition.

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