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  1. #31

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post

    which perfumes smell the most natural to you and which are the most synthetic to your nose or wich houses stand out by using most valuable ingredients ? curious to know what you think!!

    thank you!!!
    Perhaps we should all return to the question at the beginning. Not whether anyone agrees or disagrees with either type.

    I think that Amouage Gold was a perfume that I considered to smell softer and more gentle to my nose. I can only presume that when I smelled it, that it had a high percentage of natural materials in it by its softness. I wouldn't know what percentage of synthetics were present but I couldn't detect any.

    In direct contrast, Fan di Fendi, which I bought because I was a fan of the old Fendi was an absolute screecher to my nose. This just screamed all chemical to me and i would be surprised if it had anything natural in that. I will stand corrected.

    In support for the good composer, I really liked Hermes Eau de Merveilles. It was well blended and an abstract notion that was well put together. I liked it very much, but I wouldn't say it smelled soft or natural to my nose.

    The adorable original Ma Griffe perfume of the late 50's in the tough square stripy box with the glass stopper. This was a soft perfume and the later formulations of the same are very harsh on comparison.

    The same goes for the original Cabochard. A powerful leather smoky bar beast of a perfume that took no slack. The new one is a good copy but a pale ghost of a descendant by a more than a few generations away.

    I adore the composition of the original Armani by Armani. I have no idea of those ingredients. i'm sure there must be some chems in that. It has a softness and i would dearly love to get that analysed one day just for perfumers curiosity.

    I don't really fully comprehend what causes it yet but the mystery I seek and would call it a good frag for having it, is that full and soft roundness. A soft voluptuousness, an all encompassing initial rapture. A comparison such as the body of a Reubens woman compared to a skinny matchstick. A Turner painting next to a pencil sketch. A bowl of steaming mussels in cream and garlic compared to some chicken broth. Like all of those things put together.

    I have always put this 'huge softness' aspect down to naturalness, and am very happy to be proved wrong with some examples that I would scurry off and get hold of to sniff and see.

    A fragrance that would be most interesting to know of, is a completely chemical frag that smells very natural. Any suggestions?
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You cannot say with any certainty that "90.0% of perfumery today is built of synthetics". Where is your proof? Even if you were to analyse every fragrance there is, by GC/MS you still would not be able to make that statement. You are basing your entire argument on your personal feelings, and whether you like a particular perfume, or not. Sorry, that is not good enough.

    If you want to use a musical analogy then a Natural material is like a big chord played on a piano, or an organ. A synthetic is like a note struck on a triangle. Both are needed to create a good tune.
    exactly i am total outsider....i asked you for some help and info....
    1. what are the naturals still most heavily used in perfumery, please help me build some knowledge here..
    2. this fact of 90% i read from several people who are part of perfumîe industry , + this was what i was thinking when i was 25 and smelling only designers(only available in my country at a time)
    3. i asked for a help to give me few examples where you think ratio is 30% 70%...look sorry i dont buy it if i can not know the fact...its not fair...i dont see it in jewelry, in clothing, everyone must say how much of real silk is there and how much gold is there...why would i have to settle for perfumer mystery?? i dont know any product where people sell me so much lies
    4. analogy with food is very logical to me, explain please why not? i went like this...my taste in food is very versatile i really like all good food, and somehow in perfumes i dont like too much of it....i must seek for a special fragrance? this does not make sense!! should search for nice scent look like searching for a gold?
    And the price i pay for frag is just entry ticket ?
    Fashion designers make beautiful creations too yet they must say what materials they use, do you think i have to spend days analyzing if a frag has some ugly note before buying it at high price or if its been reformulated since the last year??Hm hm....something doesn't feel right here, pure logic!

    i like all that is natural!! it is versatility that i lack, all perfumes are the same....because i concluded are not natural...apple, tomato, strawberry ..you don't notice the difference anymore if you don't buy the real one! .....

    thank you very much for answering David i concluded you are one experienced perfumer? so would so much love to know your answers on the above 4 looking forward to it!!!
    and yes i feel like that triangle became the only music ...am i overreacting? some examples would be most helpful!
    Last edited by iivanita; 1st March 2013 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    mumsy - yes, love Eau des Merveilles, when in the mood, agree a very good composition - they didn't use actual ambergris in there, but unlike many 'modern' scents, it has that 'fullness' to me, or maybe is capable of holding one's interest?
    And the original Gold was so lovely, really sumptuous, like Joy, the vibe rather than the actual smell.
    Haven't smelt 'Ma Griffe' recently.

  4. #34

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    This is an excellent thread!!!
    Well Done Ivana!!!!!

    For me, I try not to get too wrapped up on synthetic or natural unless I am talking about my Oud collection(which then becomes strictly a batch varient and what type). In today's mass production market even small amounts of "natural" parts to the composition are difficult and problematic at best to replicate exactly.
    For me and my addiction to amouage Attar's I had to set this bias aside and judge what I like just on it's merits alone. Not the composition of it.
    That being said, I also have issue with things smelling to "chemically" lmao. I just stay away from what doesn't suit me and hoard what does!!
    Paul
    "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." – Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    oh mumsy exactly!!! this is what i wrote above too, i connected softness with beeing natural!--

    i found out this too...those synthetic frags scream(look at Samsara new jezus this one yells )...and then they smell nice after several hours even next day...they smell the best

    oh 5.th fact is this....why is Ellena great composer today?? because he really knows how to make synthetics bearable to a nose Chanels exclusifs are all EDT? Hermes makes lots of EDTs..why?? i think in stronger concentration those synthetics would kill peoples noses so the overall trend is to tone it down...that's what bores me to death!! so the whole trend had to change because then we would have Poemes. Amarige, Samsara everywhere

    oh this Amouage Gold i have 2009 version probably? but the drydwon is terribly synthetic (( it smelled like that 1st time i tried it and friend told me oh dont buy this its ugly..and i went no no its very much praised this is Guy Robert hahaha....ok i love it how it smells first 2-3 hours ---later it suffocates me that ugly synthetic civet! what else can it be?? when civet is synthetic today...

    yeah pls what basenotes can be used today that are natural? i ask this 3rd time

    Eau des Merveilles....i dont like the drydown..synthetic moss, its also like without flesh..almost same type as
    mouage Gold problem...sharp for the nose and masculine ....but the opening is marvellous i sold it immediately after the blind buy....

    from that frag and Cristalle Chanel i concluded i dont like oak moss then i tried vintage Mitsouko(which is probably very synthetic frag too..but the moss there or the galbanum , something in there smells so gorgeously..aromatic!!) , vintage Caleche and smelled how beautiful they are...until then i was beeing puzzled why are people crazy about chypre.......
    before i smelled vintage Shalimar i could not understand who would go crazy for that syntheticly crazy bergamot at the top and that dry hay in the middle still its one of better reformulations! its bearable!

    my suggestion of completely synthetic frag but smelling natural? was Pear and Olive from Slumberhouse?? but i heard they use lots of natural materials, and so it smells form other frags...but this one smells so so weird! and beautiful!!!amazing

    i love your post mumsy now i am sure my nose is right!....and not mistaking much .....i did try only few naturals and from there concluded it all, because when one smells naturals its like from another planet....and i am really not experienced nose!!
    Last edited by iivanita; 1st March 2013 at 10:02 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    iivanita - which Eau des Merveilles did u try?
    I only have the original 2004

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by str8shooter View Post
    This is an excellent thread!!!
    Well Done Ivana!!!!!

    For me, I try not to get too wrapped up on synthetic or natural unless I am talking about my Oud collection(which then becomes strictly a batch varient and what type). In today's mass production market even small amounts of "natural" parts to the composition are difficult and problematic at best to replicate exactly.
    For me and my addiction to amouage Attar's I had to set this bias aside and judge what I like just on it's merits alone. Not the composition of it.
    That being said, I also have issue with things smelling to "chemically" lmao. I just stay away from what doesn't suit me and hoard what does!!
    Paul
    hello Paul thank you very much!!! )

    yes i think i will do the same thing!! , i stopped buying perfumes at 25 when i concluded they can sell that chemistry to whoever they want, i am not falling for it.... then long break and gave it a chance once again 1 year ago now i know i have to use the old tactics again...

    be extremely picky... those perfumes are like sirenes call , and then wearing them....oh man you realise you are not on a tropical island but on the rocks , hurt and bruised by some synthetic note from the drydown you did not notice before lol...

    yes i agree on that too , making just little change in naturals throws everything out of balance (example new Ubar)...i am really amazed someone calls synthetic civet a civet, i would make a new name for that note they are so different!..one should use it only when nothing else helps, this note is onyl about giving some kind of sharpness, bitternes and nothing more, i dont get it...new Ubar is built on that note(sweaty smell), and Gold too.......this is not worth 90 eur for 100 ml edp to me let alone 200eur what they charge....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    iivanita - which Eau des Merveilles did u try?
    I only have the original
    i bought it last year 2012....was blind buy based on beautiful descriptions and i loved the opening veeery much...but the drydown...thin, masculine bitter skeleton which goes for hours...so i concluded oak moss is some terrible masculine note lol

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Well, iivanita, don't get me started on Ellena...
    And Guy Robert's 'Gold', to me, is now a very different re-formulated product which I would not personally buy. The spirit of the original is missing now.
    More foot & mouth posting here
    Last edited by lpp; 2nd March 2013 at 07:40 AM.

  9. #39

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    The Gold I smelled was an old one here. It didn't smell at all synthetic to me.
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Yes, the contents of the old heavy crystal 'mosque' bottles were very different to the new.
    Last edited by lpp; 2nd March 2013 at 07:19 AM.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    They are different no doubt about that!! New one has completely synthetic base...very ugly one, and i am sure Guy Robert would not call it beautiful, one doesn't have to be rocket scientist to know what is beautiful and what is not, they changed it for sure, its like a theft do it once you will do it for ever:-) ....this is indeed a shame that someone like me reads so nice things and then goes naively for it, and there you go......luca turin said its still ok better then the rest lol, yeah then imagine what the rest is like! I could even agree partially.

    Such a shame, and is this something perfume industry really needs ? Is this something that will bring out new thing everyone wants to have? To kill the good old classic.....anyway this is huge mess to be enjoyed at all.

    Yes forgot to say those perfumes that get reformulated should drop half in price!! Like old mobile phones! Otherwise its all huge criminal! And a theft!
    Last edited by iivanita; 1st March 2013 at 10:30 PM.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Problem maybe is that we're a bit fussy, Ivana!
    Loads of people buy them, spray & go

  13. #43
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    The OP said this: "100% naturals - are never loud"


    Of this I can't agree. I'm composing a fresh Fragrance from all materials available, with a Shiso leaf note. (Perilla Frutescens)
    And until the percentage of the natural Shiso leaf gets to about 0.5%, it is too loud. And I would say the same about Buchu Leaf, which would curl your nose of you smell it raw... But in defense of iivanita, I may in fact be completely misunderstainding her post, as I read down the thread, I seem to get a different nuance to her OP.

    But I felt compelled to voice this about my work, My Perfume Composition ideology goes something like this:

    “Use the best materials available to make the best perfumes possible. Naturals for rounding and complexity, and an ease of beauty, and other aromatics for cleanliness, abstraction, specificity, power, longevity, and projection, and access to animalic and endangered materials not easily or ethically used as compared with naturals.”

    That’s how I choose and use different materials, I choose them for their strengths, and not their weaknesses, and how they fit my vision. This is the Art of Perfumery.

    iivanita, it seems that you are voicing a preference in this post, of desiring more roundedness to your perfumes... Is that correct? This would seem to hearken to Past masterpieces of perfumery, Do you agree? One can still have beautifully rounded fragrances, of you use enough synthetic chemicals to make up the body of the fragrance, but this is difficult and time consuming, and also doesn't seem to be the trend of the vast majority of Commercial perfumes. Thus is where you would leave Commercial perfumes, and move to the more Niche houses that do in fact use more naturals.

    "i am seeking for 30% naturals!! please tell me where to look?"

    Of this you can look at at my work, if you like...

    But I think placing a numerical quantification on how much naturals are included falls into a trap, because a talented perfumer can make something of extraordinary beauty even without naturals included, but it still may not be to your preference. It may be too abstract for you... and it seems like you might like something more literal...?
    Abstraction has it's place, but it may not be for you...

    Of my work, Cafe Diem is 50% naturals. The least naturals content of my work is probably about 18%.


    (After writing the following, I realize that it might be a bit askew of the topic, but I think I should post it anyway...)

    As for musks, Yes, natural Musk is very complex, but extremely expensive, and extremely difficult to discern if it is even ethically produced and not destructive to the animal. Natural materials are made up of hundreds of constituents, and so, are therefore more complex than even a dozen aromatics combined to try to accomplish the same type of odor profile. But there comes a place that a decision must be made to accept the musk that we can make, versus the use of a material that is destructive to life to produce. A compromise of odor profile must be undertaken. The same thing goes to Sandalwood. Sure, it is very difficult to match the odor profile of the elegant creamy Mysore sandalwood that I smelled in Mysore 30 years ago, because the forests have been decimated, and ethically, the use of Mysore sandalwood is a difficult choice. It is possible that in the future we can go back using some cultivated Mysore Santalum album from other countries growing it, but right now, the best option is to accomplish the sandalwood odor profile out of synthetic elements. This act and necessity of encouraging the use of synthetic replacements is being responsible with the resources we've been given on the planet, and not driving the Santalum Album into extinction.

    I had the chance to take a tour of the Taylor Guitar factory this year.
    Bob Taylor needs Ebony wood to make his guitars. He has travelled the world seeking this wood. When He toured Cameroon, he was astounded by what he heard from the men who bring Ebony logs to the mill that he just bought for turning ebony logs into materials for making Guitars. Bob Taylor heard that the men cut down ten trees to find one tree that is all black inside. The other nine trees have some streaking of brown and white in the grain, and are not bought by the guitar companies. So the other nine trees are left to rot in the jungle, and are wasted.

    When Bob Taylor heard this, his heart was just sick, (as was mine). He realized that in this country of Cameroon, it is *THE* very last place on the planet where Ebony is available to harvest and use, because it has been decimated in every other country by over harvesting and illegal cutting (Just like sandalwood in India). He said right then and there, because he owns now the mill of ebony in Cameroon, that EVERY ebony tree would be bought now, and that the standards of acceptability would just have to change, and as the business owner, he was going to lead that change in aesthetics and acceptability, for the Worldwide Musical Instrument industry, because he is in fact in control of the only remaining ebony on the planet.

    This is responsibility with the resources we have available, and like it or not, the aesthetics of perfumery faces the same challenges of the over-plundering of natural materials, and some compromises must take place in order to conserve what we have left. Yes, I certainly miss the beautiful creaminess of sandalwood. I have a few ounces of 90 year old Mysore Sandalwood Santalum Album that is the most fantastic fragrant beautiful sandalwood I've ever smelled. But I also have to be realistic and not expect to be able to use that beautiful sandalwood in anything but bespoke fragrances for the very wealthy who can afford this material, since it just isn't available like this much anymore...

    Grace and Beauty balanced with realism and responsibility..
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #44
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    That's a really lovely, informative post, Paul.
    & ethics in business (& everywhere else) is an interesting subject.
    Thank you

    Continuing in ethical mode, did anyone else see Grant's new article about Pell Wall yesterday?
    Last edited by lpp; 2nd March 2013 at 08:38 AM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    exactly i am total outsider....i asked you for some help and info....
    1. what are the naturals still most heavily used in perfumery, please help me build some knowledge here..
    2. this fact of 90% i read from several people who are part of perfumîe industry , + this was what i was thinking when i was 25 and smelling only designers(only available in my country at a time)
    3. i asked for a help to give me few examples where you think ratio is 30% 70%...look sorry i dont buy it if i can not know the fact...its not fair...i dont see it in jewelry, in clothing, everyone must say how much of real silk is there and how much gold is there...why would i have to settle for perfumer mystery?? i dont know any product where people sell me so much lies
    4. analogy with food is very logical to me, explain please why not? i went like this...my taste in food is very versatile i really like all good food, and somehow in perfumes i dont like too much of it....i must seek for a special fragrance? this does not make sense!! should search for nice scent look like searching for a gold?
    And the price i pay for frag is just entry ticket ?
    Fashion designers make beautiful creations too yet they must say what materials they use, do you think i have to spend days analyzing if a frag has some ugly note before buying it at high price or if its been reformulated since the last year??Hm hm....something doesn't feel right here, pure logic!

    i like all that is natural!! it is versatility that i lack, all perfumes are the same....because i concluded are not natural...apple, tomato, strawberry ..you don't notice the difference anymore if you don't buy the real one! .....

    thank you very much for answering David i concluded you are one experienced perfumer? so would so much love to know your answers on the above 4 looking forward to it!!!
    and yes i feel like that triangle became the only music ...am i overreacting? some examples would be most helpful!
    So much to try and answer, that I doubt if I will succeed. Indeed I think others have answered some of your questions already; and others have repeated what I have already said.

    I am not going to list all of the natural materials that are still used in commercial perfumery as there are too many. The company that I worked for ordered what I think is a typical selection of naturals available. As a rough estimate would be well over a 100; maybe more.

    You cannot calculate the percentage of naturals to synthetics as a given. Each fragrance will be different. As I have said before a fragrance is simply a mixture of chemicals that smell. Where those chemicals come from (in an Essential Oils, or added as a single chemical) is unimportant. What matters is the end result. There are good fragrances and bad fragrances. I have smelled many fragrances that were 100.0% natural (indeed have created some myself!) which were terrible. Thick and stodgy, and flat. Others that worked. But in my experience, a very high level of naturals cannot achieve the effects of a fragrance that is a well blended mixture of naturals and synthetics. I don't actually care what is in a fragrance; I do care if I like it or not. The raw materials are less important than the skill with which they are used.

    Of course the quality of the raw materials is important (your analogy with poor quality food is very good) and it is not possible to make a good fragrance with ingredients that smell bad. I think that is a separate issue. Indeed it is harder to maintain a constant quality of fragrance if that fragrance contains a lot of naturals. The quality of naturals will vary from year to year, and it is necessary for the Essential oil producers to try to blend together several batches to maintain that constant quality. Much easier to main tai quality with synthetics.

    To return to the original question, I seriously don't know what you mean by "smelling natural". I cannot classify a fragrance as more or less natural smelling. I either like a fragrance or I don't. I either think a fragrance well made, and well blended, or I don't. I do not try to calculate the various percentages of synthetics or naturals, and I doubt if I would get any more enjoyment from a fragrance if I did.

    I was a perfumer for 30 years, so your conclusion was correct; and I haven't changed my mind about this during that time.

  16. #46

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I either like a fragrance or I don't. I either think a fragrance well made, and well blended, or I don't.
    Agreed!
    I think it all comes down to personal taste. This article may be interesting in this light:
    http://virsanghvi.com/Article-Details.aspx?Key=904

    It basically says that what you 'think' you smell and smells 'right' to do doesn't say anything about how 'natural' that is.
    Part of my perfumer's training was to reverse engineer several fragrances with the help of a GC/MS analysis and my nose. I was shocked to find out how much more 'natural' some fragrances smelled to me that were at least 95% synthetic.

    With 'natural' I mean here: true to nature, a lavender scent that smells like the lavender bushes in my garden. I have smelled lavender essential oils that were terribly not accurate to that 'natural' smell while being 100% natural!

    Conclusion: it is also a matter of expectation, psychology, taste, culture, exposure, much more of the brain is involved here than the olfactory bulbs.

    So my advice to you Ivana is to trust your nose and develop your own taste, letting go of % of naturals and synthetics. You might find your Holy Grail unexpectedly in the discount bin at the drugstore

    p.s. and interesting read about what kind of perfume ingredients are in what fragrance is this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Scent-Chemistr.../dp/3906390667
    @SomethingSmelly

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    heeello dear basenoters

    pkiler your post was really very nice! and i completely agree with many things you have said!

    but why i wanted to know some rough numbers?

    simply becasue i want to know and develop a feeling for it (analogy with jewlery- the same as they would say if you like what you see buy it i want to know what value am i buying as well, not just the "looks" or "the smell" ...good analogy is with clothes too, becasue wearing a silk is not just about how it looks but how it feels on the skin too...compared to some synthetic material...where the side effect may be i sweat more or whatever)

    you are very correct from what i know about myself i lean more to natural things! and i think i am very open to many ideas...am not narrow in tastes hehe....can like many things only if they are genuine!thats so important to me! i hate fakes.....but they are also a lot cheaper!!

    now my opening post came from the data i collected so far , i could correct my opinion if i knew more facts,and i opened this threat to be confonted by the facts if thats possible, i can not create my opinion on the general idea that creativity of perfumer is more important then the material he uses,becasue that is never true in any other industry i know of so i dont think perfumery is much different , for me to spend $$$ i want to know how much value it really has not just the idea....the same as in jewlery, watches, food, clothes....(all of them MUST show the facts, beside great idea , beauty , creativity etc)

    so i like very much how you answered providing some numbers!....if your lowest frag has 18% and you are so to say...." small manufacturer" compared to Chanel...then they probably use 9% in their best scent (31Rue cambon i dare to say lol)

    and i agree if something is rare and not obtainable anymore it should be replaced with what is available at the moment BUT at the same time its a crime that frags are beeing changed , replaced by synthetics and PRICE stays the same! thats huge lie

    1.this is why i want to know what is possible today and what price to attach to it?....i feel stupid when i discover that some perfume smells worse then it was only 3 years ago! because none of them tells anything about the change!

    hello Mr. David, i suppose this is your true name, thank you very much for replying,i did not even try to say that higher % of naturals used guarantees anything, just that many higher % of natural perfumes hold more beauty even less nicely done then 100% synthetics greatly done....(i know only widely known perfumes, not someones private perfumes ...)
    this is good to know that there are around 100 natural essences still beeing on average used by 1 house...though we still dont know if that % in the final product goes around 90% or 75% or 95% which i think is important, i dont think perfumers can make astonishing beauty with 90% synthetics used, give me an example pls?

    since many of you agree its the COMPOSER of the fragrance who is so important, and his creativity....i followed Luca Turin*s book, becasue i think he made very good attempt to value fragrances based exactly on that: perfumer skill, so perfumes like Tommy girl, and Shalimar, and Gold go into the same group of 5 star scents....and artistic beauty of a fragrance is valued not the quality of ingredients!(CLive Christian..got only 3stars max?)
    if you follow statistical probability function then around 5% of normal distribution represents excellence, and i think out of 2000 something frags he sniffed he gave 5 stars to 85 scents (this is something below 4%)....this make sense!

    then i went on sniffing many of the frags from the book, and i noticed that many of the 4 and 5 stars scents are no better then tommy girl ....you all kind of talk of outliers when you mentions synthetic frags that smell astonishing! otherwise i think you would throw out some examples wouldnt you? and i talk in general!
    i dont think search for a good perfume should resemble the search for a gold?

    i concluded that it makes no sense at all...i dont think my taste is that picky...i just concluded that Amouage , Les Exclusifs are the same kind of industrial production as designers arei.e. they are not 3 times better as their price is higher!...

    so if some of you would come out and say Ivana my experienced perfumer nose says Les Exclusifs smell around 80% synthetic i would reevaluate what i think..becasue to me only 31 Rue cambon, Sycomore....stand out ....maybe Cuir de russie..although i got some very synthetic vibes from it during wearing 2 days in a row....it is nice composition though, but not so nice as i think once was

    2.when noone talks about it(except pkiler) does it mean that % of naturals varies so much from perfume to perfume even within the same house?

    hm to my nose they all smelled like programmed on a computer to the 4 digits


    Amouage Gold, who dares to say this is not a 5 star scent by the quality of the composition? yet i think its ugly, the drydown is ugly as can only synthetic material be....its thin its harsh its...skeleton, its not 5 star scent, its def not luxury as it used to be when created!

    so too many perfumes out there, with which i have no problem compositionwise dont stand up to their price! nor to the fame they had before, becasue of heavy use of synthetics ....


    Irina this is only i can do now trust my nose! i will never ever go for a frag that was beautiful before, because today most certainly it is not anymore!...but this means devoting a lot of time and money finding something valuable of owning ......

    3.so the question for all is: in your own book how many % of frags get your 5 stars?

    in my book from what i have tried and used so far i think it would be 0.1% of frags produced now.....i find this not normal...and concluded that it must be the very small quantity of natural ingredients that makes them standardized to beeing boring to death for wearing...
    they provide all just 3-4 hours of pleasure 1st day you smell them...in 10 days are passe! just as long as you smell the idea its interesting....when you chew the idea ....nothing holds you there anymore!...just huge emptiness of ingredients
    Last edited by iivanita; 2nd March 2013 at 11:07 PM.

  18. #48

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Ivana, dear, here is a nice blog about it:
    http://boisdejasmin.com/2012/02/the-...perfume-1.html

    You know my favorites
    Last edited by Irina; 3rd March 2013 at 12:17 PM.
    @SomethingSmelly

  19. #49
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    That pretty much sums up my feelings, Irina - thank you!

  20. #50

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Most of the frags from the house of Greed (I can already sense many a BN's stare and a few even swearing on my comment), sorry, house of Creed smell synthetic to me, own many as they were amongst the first I started my collection with...But the cost to satisfaction ratio (if it can be calculated) is not great IMO for this house.

    Anyone looking for natural should buy the oils, can't be beat. However, storing, quality & shelf life are a huge issue as they can turn turbid & bcom useless...
    Currently wearing: Vétiver by Christian Dior

  21. #51
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    @badarun - yes, have personally reverted mainly to oils, which have their own idiosyncrasies.
    And even trying to make my own.
    Desperation or disillusion?

  22. #52

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Firstly iivanita my name is David Ruskin, why would I lie about my Name? Assuming, that iivanita is your real name!

    I think I have worked out where you got the 90.0% synthetics to 10.0% naturals in modern fragrances, that you claim. I mentioned that my old company used to buy about 100 natural materials; well they used to buy in about 1000 synthetics and speciality bases (bases containing a captive molecule, only sold in the base). So, the Perfumer's palette contained 10.0% naturals, 90.0% synthetics; but that did not mean that every fragrance made contained that same ratio. Of course the percentage of naturals varied hugely from perfume to perfume. It depends on so many factors, that I don't have space to list them all.

    In general the cost of a Fine Fragrance has nothing to do with the percentage of naturals in it. In fact the cost of the liquid in the bottle contributes very little to the final cost. You can easily work out the actual cost of the liquid and see that it amounts to pennies rather than hundreds of pounds. Very quickly I will show you. Assume that the Raw Material cost of the concentrated fragrance is £100.00 / Kg. By the way, that would be a very expensive fragrance indeed. The Fragrance House that created that fragrance would sell it, and make a profit. A big profit. Let us assume that they sell it for £300.00 /Kg. The fragrance is then diluted to 20.0% in alcohol (as for the sake of this example let us assume that the ethanol costs nothing). So the diluted fragrance costs £300.00 for 5 Kg ( or £60.00 /Kg). So the cost of 1000 gms diluted fragrance costs £60.00. You sell a 100 ml bottle for £100.00. The juice costs £6.00. To the Perfume House it costs £2.00.

    As I have written before, the worth of any fragrance is if you like it or not. I don't care what is the fragrance I wear, although I sometimes enjoy trying to sniff out what the ingredients are. All I care about is whether the fragrance is well made, and if it gives me pleasure.

  23. #53

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    What David says is true. Here is another popular article that shows you the price breakdown of perfumes:

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/05/...ost-breakdown/

    Here is an illustration, a picture says more than a 1000 words

    Last edited by Irina; 3rd March 2013 at 12:32 PM.
    @SomethingSmelly

  24. #54
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Hello dear David, Irina,

    I could not answer before, basenotes was closed, i love your replies, it makes it much easier now to understand:-) .

    I don't know why i ever thought that niche perfumes make more expensive juices:-) , now i understand this idea that what matters only is the composition itself,

    And now understand as well why it doesn't satisfy my taste and perception of what i would pay for something smelly, pkiler said it right, i would like it to have more flesh, this was very helpful thread to me:-) ...

    Thank you all very much, i think i realized which way to go from now on:-)

    Was very interesting discussion, now we can focus more on tastes:-) hehe

    I would so much love to hear what is David your taste , what are your top 10 perfumes of all time please:-)
    Last edited by iivanita; 4th March 2013 at 04:34 PM.

  25. #55

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I have often read the complaint that modern perfumes aren't rich enough, or as you said iivanita "more flesh", and it is all down to the materials used. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that the main difference between modern fragrances and "classic fragrances', and even between vintage versions and modern, reformulated versions, is that the old perfumes used a lot of animal extracts. Lots of real Civet, Musk, Ambergris and (to a lesser extent) Castoreum. Oakmoss and Labdanum and real Sandalwood also help but it is the animal notes that are the key; in my opinion. I have a book called "Perfumes, Cosmetics and Soaps" by W.A.Poucher. It is the second of three that he wrote in the early 20s. The edition I have is from 1983. The book is about, amongst other topics, the production and manufacture of Essential oils and fragrances based on those oils (yes my dears, mainly naturals!!) He goes through a short history of Perfumery, his theory of olfaction and his division of Aroma Chemicals (natural and synthetic) into top, middle and base notes. The most interesting part of the book is called "Monographs on Flower Perfumes". He describes the characteristics of popular single floral notes; sometimes describes their method of extraction from flowers if this is possible, and describes those materials needed to produce the smell of each flower. At the end of each section he provides two formulations (an expensive one with lots of Naturals in, and a cheaper version). He also provided a formulation for a Fine Fragrance soliflore, and in each case, in every fine fragrance formulation there is some Civet and/or Musk/and or Ambergris. Every formulation (from the 1920s) in his book had masses of animal notes. Even before IFRA had started restricting materials, the perfumery world stopped using Animal products; and I think that is where the rot set in. Tastes change, and most young people would not like to wear the style of perfume that their mothers and grandmothers wore. "It smells of Old Ladies" is a common comment. You can translate that into "It smells too dirty". The modern world in now obsessed with cleanliness, resulting in the hissy aquatics, and the thin fruities we are drowning in. Those with a more sophisticated palette (hem hem) prefer more complexity, and even a bit more body odour in their perfumes. You can disagree with me if you want; it's only what I think.

    The reason that Niche fragrances tend to be more expensive is nothing to do with the cost of fragrance except that Niche companies will tend to order smaller batches, and a smaller batch of perfume costs more to make than a larger batch. Niche companies order smaller numbers of everything and it all mounts up.

    Not sure if I can restrict myself to 10 fragrances but I'll have a go.

    Vintage Shalimar, vintage Mitsouko, vintage L'Heure Bleu, vintage Apres L'Ondee, vintage Jicky (do you see a trend here?), vintage Bals a Versailles, vintage Habit Rouge, vintage Guerlain Vetiver, vintage Bandit, vintage Vent Vert. That's 10, but there are a few I need to add. The original Chloe perfume (in the bottle with the lilies on the stopper), Perfumer's Workshop Tea Rose. Not many moderns I'm afraid, although I love Serge Lutens' Musk Koublai Khan, L'Artisan Perfumer's Timbukto and Dzing. There are others, and other moderns honest!!

  26. #56
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    That's fascinating, David - thank you

    Forgot all about that 'Chloe', think I damaged the top on mine.....
    Last edited by lpp; 4th March 2013 at 05:51 PM.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    hehehe hello David, oh thank you so much for this!!

    of course! so you are no different then i am...i was lucky to try almost all of those vintages(thanks to some dear basenotes friends): i even got small samples of vintage Mitsouko PDT (gorgeous galbanum note, more then oak moss), vintage Shalimar PDT , and vintage Bal a Versailes EDC(own a bottle, it smelt sooo civety to me when i tried it 1st time....i wanted to vomit almost !)

    never tried vintage Bandit, but i think if i did i would have to own it ....

    this is exactly why i started this thread i noticed some huge differences and especially as you say in the base! all those beautiful basenotes are missing in new perfumes....and as obvious as it may seem to you,it took me a while to understand that i must like basnotes to appreciate the perfume enough becasue the base is something one smells 60-70% of the time

    when i tried Bal a Versailes for the first time i smelled some real civet, and understood what it means animalic note, becasue i could not smell anything animalic from indolic jasmine and some styrax leathers no no ...it took me several wearings to get used to those new notes! and after those experiences i find out my standard against everything i have smelled so far has risen! now when i smell new modern Gold, omg i am dissappointed a looot!becasue thats not civet!i want that real civet note , the synthetic one to me is so bad replica i can not find it luxurious at all

    i must add Samsara and the sandalwood there beat Ubar, which i thought was the best female perfume ever....Samsara smells soo sublime, that sandalwood note, although has lots of synthetic too, but its nothing compared to modern perfumes

    then when i smelled profumo.it scents...i also noticed his scents resemble a lot of vintages, his bases are animalic...and real animalic.....i dont smell anything animalic in modern scents..i thought i dont miss it that much, i miss more those other notes like real sandalwood , labdanum, oak moss....but going back ....my taste chanaged so rapidly by smelling perfumes with more natural stuff in it...they are much more interesting, one doesnt get bored so soon, and it just went spontaneously...i never thought i will like the old lady vibe! they smellt also too complex...messy in a way...but now i want it, it feels alive!

    SO i would totaly agree with what you say...all those vintages like Tabu, Arpege , Bal a Versailes had that dirty complex bases, with what smells to my nose 100s of ingredients...its all so full of details..wheras in modern perfumes you have like 3-4 clean accords..and not that much complexity let alone dirtiness......
    it all started when i discovered i can smell musk note, and it dawned on me that musk is everywhere, and what else could they use when there is nothing much left to be used for the base and i cant help it but it reminds me of body products, of detergents , of hairsprays...whatever...

    i agree, consumers taste overall has changed a lot !! .....it is only a matter of fashion i think and what one is exposed to majority of time....also i think taste can chnage pretty quickly (as mine chnaged from thinking i dont like vitnages to now that i want more real things and complexity)

    and probably when those vintages were made , perfumers followed the same logic as today...just materials not beeing available any more , price rose in the mean time...makes them greater value nowdays....i understand this better now!.....but i was a bit angry that modern perfumery is not using enough of stuff that is still available, like Vero Kern uses etc...they just went for synthetics..and are like Mc Donalds producing standardized product and people even want that (think batch variations are bad) , also anything more complex would not sell so well, so i guess thats the circle we are in i was reading about L Feu d Issay, what do you think of that one?

    in the end , we have very similar taste lol , i think modern perfumery has issue like modern world in general, we have variety of techical products where variety of big animals, animal life in general is just decreasing rapidly, and world feels cleaned up from nature!

    oh i wore Timbuktu one winter, was my favourite scent , becasue i never wore any vetyver before, this is one of the best vetyver transformations that reminded me of some nice herabl tea too....now i love Vanilia , so much ....
    i love Le temps du une fete, its the only modern perfume i know that has some animalic dirty note, which is "clean" its not real..but its there, that was fascinating...i dont own it because i cant smell anything real in it but so nicely done...
    Odalisque too...then i smell those scents and imagine how would they be if they have real oak moss, some real musk(ok i know it cant have it lol)...but you know that is what i get with so many modern frags image how i would want them to be much more real.

    Iris note...this at least could be made of real thing...but there is sooo much of synthetic iris that its unbeleivable! even in expencive stuff like Chanel.....i must say i never tried real note so may be irring here? (no 22, and even curi de Russie...whereas 28 La pausa smells like real iris note ?
    Last edited by iivanita; 4th March 2013 at 10:15 PM.

  28. #58

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    This thread is a really good thrash out of why perfumes have changed styles, in the most eloquent way. Thank you for starting it Livanita and to you David for sharing your expertise and not losing it when our inexperience makes us explain things strangely and have odd views as a result sometimes.

    I have those lovely books too. They were my first purchase and mine are the 1932 and the 1950's versions, amongst others like Askinson and Jarabes. Those are my bibles and how I have been practicing. One of mine still has the cosmetics colour chart in the back. There is such a lot to learn and it is all just so fascinating.

    It is you David who has made me now realise exactly why I like these vintage frags so much. My Sin, Givenchy III, Cabochard, Tabu, Magie Noir, Armani, Houbigant Ambergris and Civet, Bal AV, Amazone, Mystere, Bandit, Cuir de Russie, Chanel 22, Vent Vert, Cuir de Lancome and loads more. L sent me Dzing last year and I have been quite passionate about that one so I shall try Timbuktu as well.

    Modern... I do like some. I like modern but classic style colognes, Barry Lindon by Maria Candida Gentile, Aqua di Genova and Aqua di Sicilia. I'm not crazy on Serge L but I love the type of journey they go on to explore a thought. I like that developmental movement from one thing to another to peruse an idea or a feeling. I too would like to smell real Orris butter, I do have some real Mysore and real animalics. I remember wearing sandalwood oil with abandon... if only we had known and saved some.

    So much to learn...... just love it.
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

  29. #59

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I am so glad that everyone on this thread is enjoying it. When people care passionately about something it always sparks. I must add my thanks to iivanita for starting it.

    Timbukto may contain Vetiver, but it owes its character to one of the very new, highly powerful woody/sweaty chemicals that have been developed over the past few years (Norlimbanol or Ambrocenide for example). They are difficult to use because they are so strong, and so long lasting. It needs a skilled Perfumer to use them properly.

    Sadly the amount of Orris being produced is going down year after year. It is a very long process and produces very little . I think that the Iris rhizome has to left to mature for about 5 years (maybe longer). According to Wikipedia one ton of dried rhizome produces 2.0 Kg of Orris Butter. Many people who used to produce Orris are now growing more profitable crops. Whilst there are very good Orris duplications, it is one of the Naturals that really can't be copied.

    Feu d'Issey has a chemical in it that smells of hot milk, and it is a note that I cannot stand. I hated Feu d'Issey when it was launched, and thought it a mess. Of course, only my opinion. Luca Turin gave it five stars in his book.

    It is sad that people no longer enjoy the richness provided by the animal extracts, and other base notes, but I'm not sure if I could support the use of those animal extracts. If only there was a better alternative...

  30. #60

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I suppose there are alternatives. Iso e super is a long lasting woody thing and I have recently purchased Norimbanol and it is a bit like paper/cedar squeezed sooo dry. I would imagine it would need a lot of taming, but as you say these are still thin and need padding. I suppose that is why a milky molecule is sometimes used. I would imagine that smells 'fat'. It would explain the increase in gourmand frags with cocoas and coffees and caramels. All 'full' smells without animal.

    There is no going back is there.....? What a fine challenge for a nose to match the beasts. I like that idea.
    Currently wearing: Gilda by Pierre Wulff

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