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  1. #61

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I am so glad that everyone on this thread is enjoying it. When people care passionately about something it always sparks. I must add my thanks to iivanita for starting it.

    Timbukto may contain Vetiver, but it owes its character to one of the very new, highly powerful woody/sweaty chemicals that have been developed over the past few years (Norlimbanol or Ambrocenide for example). They are difficult to use because they are so strong, and so long lasting. It needs a skilled Perfumer to use them properly.

    Sadly the amount of Orris being produced is going down year after year. It is a very long process and produces very little . I think that the Iris rhizome has to left to mature for about 5 years (maybe longer). According to Wikipedia one ton of dried rhizome produces 2.0 Kg of Orris Butter. Many people who used to produce Orris are now growing more profitable crops. Whilst there are very good Orris duplications, it is one of the Naturals that really can't be copied.

    Feu d'Issey has a chemical in it that smells of hot milk, and it is a note that I cannot stand. I hated Feu d'Issey when it was launched, and thought it a mess. Of course, only my opinion. Luca Turin gave it five stars in his book.

    It is sad that people no longer enjoy the richness provided by the animal extracts, and other base notes, but I'm not sure if I could support the use of those animal extracts. If only there was a better alternative...
    THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! Both Ivana for starting this thread and David for his very helpful posts and actually everyone that joined in, it is a fascinating thread!

    I am hypernosmic to both Norlimbanol and Ambrocenide that's why I simply detest the new Oudh trend, to me it smells like very smelly feet and spoiled milk!

    Do you happen to know what aromatic material(s) is responsible for the hot milk nuance in Feu D'Issey, David? Cos just like you, that note ruins it for me!

    And I'm joining in the animal dirtiness fun! I didn't know what I was missing till smelling Cacio's 'durty' offerings in the wonderful blind sniff thread and a very old Mitsouko. Now I'm fervently collecting those old animal materials and OMG I'm in a perfumers heaven!

    Am still to buy a Poucher for myself, I did read it and it was huge eye-opener.

    David if you could tell us more about materials that are responsible for that nice smooth animalic vibe, I would hugely appreciate it!
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  2. #62

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    There are a few chemicals that smell like milk or cream. The most commonly used are Diacetyl and Acetyl Methyl Carbinol {also called Acetoin). Diacetyl has a poor reputation and I think is banned in the USA, but is still used widely in Europe. Both of these molecules are very strong, and are used as top notes. The chemical that I really hate, and is the one (I think) that was used in Feu d'Issey is called Sulfurol. i'm having a moment of crisis as I've just Googled Sulfurol and it is described as having a meaty fragrance, but I think that in dilution it smells of hot milk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I suppose there are alternatives. Iso e super is a long lasting woody thing and I have recently purchased Norimbanol and it is a bit like paper/cedar squeezed sooo dry. I would imagine it would need a lot of taming, but as you say these are still thin and need padding. I suppose that is why a milky molecule is sometimes used. I would imagine that smells 'fat'. It would explain the increase in gourmand frags with cocoas and coffees and caramels. All 'full' smells without animal.

    There is no going back is there.....? What a fine challenge for a nose to match the beasts. I like that idea.
    I am not concerned with new fragrances, the ones that are yet to be created (although I think there are far too may that are rushed and badly made). Perfumers are creative and will use what is available to the best of their ability. What worries me is that all the "classics" will disappear and no-one will remember them. We seem to be going through a period of crassness and poor quality in Perfumery. For what ever reason (and I don't think it is the quality or type of ingredient) most of the new fragrance launches are not very good. I guess it was ever thus; just seems to be a hell of a lot more of them than ever before. Not sure what to do about that, nor if things will change.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 6th March 2013 at 08:52 AM.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    ....David this last paragraph of yours sums it all up nicely
    thats why i started this thread, i remember when i stopped buying perfumes some time ago...i am just ordinary customer, and got fed up sniffing every one bottle to find a good one it resembled to lifting a rock and looking underneeth for a little gold ..... i got tired, bored and i gave up,
    then i somehow came back through niche , and out of curiosity smelled some vintages and that was all kind of mind blowing....when i connected the dots! before i thought good perfumes i would like dont exist, then bought up some perfumes i liked, following LT book, then got dissapointed again becasue did it in good faith lol

    with perfumes its so hard to understand what is quality if you can not compare it to anything....and one gets impressed at first by the price, thinking if payed high price its worth more then some designer....where actually the differences are not that huge...

    so i concluded the culprit must be to the quality of materials used today, because i could not find a reason why modern perfumers would loose skills?

    i think nothing will change there unfortunately,......and people*s taste is created by what is beeing offered,.....because one synthetic perfume can not keep the consumer interest for too long, so you get hyperproduction (money thing)...and just fooling customers that its something "new", where that creation will be forgotten in 3 years time....without the quality either of materials, or idea or both , one product can not survive too long IMO....

    modern perfumery sometimes reminds me of modern art you draw black dot on white screen and call it superb, ok fine....i just like to see some more time spent around some idea ...my taste ....

    that L feau Issey....just makes me so curious i did not come to it cause it got 5 stars but because it created so bipolar reactions to it from disgust to worship (have not read on any other discontinued perfume that people beg it comes back in reviews)

    yes Onda, is one modern perfume that smells so much old school, why there are not more of such offers within niche? btw it is also very simmilar to Habanita ....i guess vetyver is still material around wich perfumers can make nice stuff, cause not banned

    i love oud smell thats why i thought i would like Le Feau too, if you tell me now this oud is chemical too i am so saaad....so oudhy smell can be created without any real oudh too??......and i thought becasue all naturals have been restricted niche perfumers went on to materials that still can be used to give the luxurious push up in their creations.....hence so much oud suddenly
    uf uf ...so wrong again

    now after all my experience i am really afraid to buy any more new perfumes.......have a feeling they all just compete how to trick my nose and i find out about the trick only later when i already spent $$$ , one would have to have hints where to look for .....otherwise for me its like....searching for a gold

  4. #64

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Thank you so much for the clues, David! I will get some samples of those. Sulfurol was suggested to me when I was working on a milk chocolate accord.

    Ivana, dear, real oudh is very very rare, very expensive and very difficult to get the real thing. It is one of those materials that are also very often 'faked'.

    Perfumers training nowadays is also very different imho than when David was trained: it is much more about quantity, fast turnover, cutting costs and technological innovation, especially fragrance chemistry than traditional artisanal skills and their historical conservation.
    Last edited by Irina; 5th March 2013 at 02:14 PM.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    double post
    Last edited by Irina; 5th March 2013 at 02:13 PM.
    Customized consultancy on perfume formulation, safety, training and marketing & olfactory research
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  6. #66

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    You should never be frightened about buying a perfume; buy what you like. Do not buy it because you think it contains a lot of naturals, buy it because you like it.

    Irina, be very carful if you order the materials I mentioned; they are very strong. I used to use them at a 0.1% dilution, at the most.

    Oud is one of the most expensive perfumery materials available, of course there are going to be bases smelling like the original. There have recently been launched a whole series of aromachemicals that smell very strongly of Oud. They are expensive, but not as expensive as the real thing.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    ok one more question for you guys David, Irina what would be your reference perfume for orris, the one that smells most natural or most nicely done, if not natural??

    norlibmanol in Timbuktu, yeah smells like sweaty...and it took me hm probably like 15-20 wearings before i noted it....i allways think i imagine things and ascribe it to the chnage of heat during the day lol ....but Timbuktu is really unique composition, nothing smells like it, it also has some special indian thing? is that true

    its easy to buy what i like , i bought all of my perfumes on that assumption then later discovered which of them i wear the most, they show their real face only after several full wearings ......or sveral weeks or months, they have constant competition among all other scents i sample
    ........and some perfumes stood the test of time, those i would repurchase and those are really worth to me, but those are either vintages or dicontinued only 31 Rue Cambon is one great perfume, i dont know how they made it so nice!!in composition i think its following the Shalimar recepie...i know its "chypre" but that bergamot top note...patchouli in the base...

    one more question please Vanilia from L artisan...what is special about that one? does it contain some special chemical or just usual yilang-vanila-sandalwood combo?

    and one more please what do you think of Homage? and Tribute are they more natural stuff? so they smell to me.....is oudh fake there too?

    oh CLive Christian smell very much natural to me, and probably the best ingredients i have ever smelled!! but i would just never buy so expencive perfume....so its not that what will lead me ...i just like to know

    thank you very much!!!
    Last edited by iivanita; 5th March 2013 at 10:15 PM.

  8. #68

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Infusion d"Iris by Prada is quite good as a standard for Orris; and it contains real Orris too.

    I'm afraid I don't know the other fragrances you mention. Oh, except the company I used to work for made two of the Clive Christian fragrances (launched in 2010-2011), a masculine and a feminine. Both were quite expensive but contained no more natural materials than any other fine fragrance.

  9. #69

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I second David's recommendation of Infusion d'Iris by Prada and most Chanels have a nice orris base, like 31 Rue Cambon. Many Guerlains, especially vintages also contain that soft powdery round orris note. I think a bit of tonka material (coumarin) also helps to round out the orris.
    I personally don't like the ylang-vanillin combo in Vanilia so I can't help there. Haven't smelled the others.

    I'm not surprised about Clive Christian fragrances being not especially natural and still expensive smelling
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  10. #70
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Infusion d"Iris by Prada is quite good as a standard for Orris; and it contains real Orris too.

    I'm afraid I don't know the other fragrances you mention. Oh, except the company I used to work for made two of the Clive Christian fragrances (launched in 2010-2011), a masculine and a feminine. Both were quite expensive but contained no more natural materials than any other fine fragrance.
    hahah wow so good to know! and i was sure they contain more of naturals ,because why would anyone come to a price 3 times more expencive then even niche and i think they sell the talk how special ingredients they use...

    i tried that Infusion d Iris by Prada and thought how nice that scent is, but was not sure if thats chemical or real,....
    yes many Chanels have that Iris note...i just thoguht the one that smells more vegetal is more natural then the one that smells powdery, but was not sure in the end......

    thank you very much!!

    oh Irina that soft powdery note in Guerlains yes its so noticable i sometimes mixed it for a musk note...i smell it in HR, Shalimar...and esp Apres londee...L heure bleue....
    yes i love it there so much!!

    good to know becasue i was not sure what real iris smells like...will look it up under DYI too

    thank you all once again ...looking forward to see what will i think in another 1 year time
    hehe perfumes really play a lot with our mind .....

  11. #71

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Almost all fragrances contain synthetics. In the case of civet, castoreum and musk, that's a good thing, as I try to avoid animal products in my perfumes.

    I happen to like the Le Labo line as they smell natural. I know that is not the case, and they do have Aldehyde as a scent, but I don't "sense" an overwhelming set of man-made notes.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

  12. #72

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    The thing about loving fragrances and following a hunch would be to try some samples from the truly natural perfumers such as Profumo.it, Anya Mcoy, Mandy Aftel and any other award winning 'natural' perfumer who belongs to the Guild, of which there are many. Only then can you be sure of obtaining a truly natural product. Only then, if you wanted to, you can compare a perfumers skills whilst ensuring there aren't hidden chemicals that might be fooling your nose.

    Then in the same breath maybe try some samples by perfumers who profess to be very aware of chemicals. My favourite Mr Brosius is of this league and he holds my highest admiration for chemical accuracy. I have a dear perfume called 'I am a dandelion' and it has the most astonishing accuracy of 'naturalness' and is presumably chemical. I would actually say that for me, this particular perfume is iconic in its simplicity and homage to a humble, common flower. The other delightful thing about his perfumes is that unusually they are water based and not alcohol based. I'm not sure how he manages his dilution solubilities by that method. He is a perfumer that I hold very high in my estimation. I do not have to love all his scents though, to admire what he is doing.

    Mr Ellena is a huge fan of the modern chemicals and I shouldn't think his compositions have much to do with nature other than emulation. He is indeed a great composer who is also at the top end of my admiration list, no matter whether one would wear his perfumes or not.

    It seems like there are actually, after much discussion, two quests here. One for 'naturalness' or the feeling of such, and another for a full bodied perfume style with the quality of the 'old school' of thought, no matter what they contain.

    I have, in the course of my searches, smelled many 'natural' perfumes that I think just do not make the perfumers bench grade at all. They just smell like poor aromatherapy blends to me. Yet there are also some real beauties, such as Profumos Holy Water. A great delight that is unsurpassed albeit brief in longevity.

    It would be interesting to see what other peoples ideas would be of a modern iconic perfume. The classics will probably one day never be smelled by anyone outside of the osmotheque. A place that is a perfumers mecca.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Thanks for that osmotheque link, mumsy
    (And the others)

  14. #74

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Christopher Brosius may be a perfumer, but he doesn't create all of the fragrances that go under his name. I met him once, when he was still with Demeter, and worked on a couple of briefs for him. In fact, at the time, I was not aware he did any perfumery himself, at all. And the briefs I worked on were not for water based perfumes. Maybe "I Hate Perfume" is different.

    I'm still unsure of what a "Natural" smelling perfume, smells like. Of the ones that I have smelled, and indeed created, there seems to be no common thread, other than a dull heaviness, and, as mumsy mentioned, a smell of a "poor aromatherapy blend" (not all of mine, you understand!!).

    Other than those Perfumers who only use natural extracts, all Perfumers are huge fans of synthetics. They provide an aspect of Perfumery impossible without them. Some Perfumers are average, a few Like Elena are great. They all use the same materials; some use them better than others.

    Modern Perfumery (starting with Fougere Royale and Jicky) is a deliberate attempt not to copy nature. As Coco Chanel said "no woman wants to smell like a bunch of roses". Jicky was, at first, unpopular, as it was so abstract; people didn't "get it". It is now a classic ( well it was).

    "you can compare a perfumers skills whilst ensuring there aren't hidden chemicals that might be fooling your nose." Surely that is what Perfumery is all about. Why should it matter what is there if it smells good?

  15. #75

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I agree with that last comment entirely. I just meant for an experience that guarantees no chemicals for the learning. Livanita wanted to know which ones were 100% and only those from the Guild members will be.

    Most interesting about CB. I've always wondered if that was head space analysis. It is so accurate.

    As for a 'natural' smelling smells like. The dandelion is a perfect example, yet it is purely chemical.

    The Aqua Santa to me is an illustration of the perfect 'natural' composition. Light and very uplifting. Not at all heavy.

    It proves your point that it is the perfumers skills. I aspire to any little part of them.

  16. #76

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Thank you to Iivanita for starting this thread and to everyone who has posted for contributing!

    I haven't smelled any vintage perfumes so can't really compare, but I too find that it is difficult to find perfumes I truly love. Of course that could be ascribed to being picky (yes, probably a contributing factor) or having narrow tastes (perhaps true since I tend to like florals) but I doubt that's all there is to it. I find that a lot of perfumes are ok (though even more are screechy, harsh and thin), some even beautiful and apparently well made. Still, like Iivanita, I very quickly get tired of many of the ones I initially find beautiful, and it's also as if something is lacking in them - I know this is not a precise way of describing things, but it is difficult to explain the feeling. Perhaps it's a matter of style, perhaps it's a matter of materials or - more likely - both. The only perfume I haven't tired of so far has been Carnal Flower. It is most certainly not all natural, though it supposedly contains the highest concentration of tuberose of any perfume on the market (not sure that says anything other than that it contains real tuberose), and the base could be a little less clean and a little more smooth, but it is still a perfume I love after many, many wearings.

    I haven't smelled a whole lot of natural perfumes, but the experiences have been varied:
    Dubrano: Thanks to a kind Basenoter I have tried Gringo, Tartar Leather and Night Blossom. All three have something in common, not only in character, but in that they are all smooth, rich and smell natural (whatever that is...). I love Gringo and Tartar Leather, and I think that part of what I love is the rich, smooth base. I haven't smelled any animalics on their own so can't be sure, but I am guessing these are part of I like in these perfumes. Interestingly, I don't find the scents to be dirty/skanky. And this is from someone who does not like, for example, the base in a lot of Lutens perfumes.
    Ajne: I have tried De Lavande, Fleur Blance and Printemps. They all smelled "natural" to some degree with De lavande being a pleasant enough lavender/honey scent, but neither of them are scents I would wear. I don't know if there was something wrong with my samples but I didn't get much gardenia from FB or Printemps.
    Honores des Pres: I have tried several but have properly sampled Vamp in NY and Sexy Angelic. Vamp actually smells somewhat synthetic and Sexy Angelic was so faint that it was a bit difficult to judge the "naturalness". Neither are perfumes I would wear.


    Though I haven't tried many naturals, I still think my experience tells me that many things come into play with regards to my preferences. Composition and skills seem to be the overriding factor but I think my likes/dislikes perhaps also have something to do with ingredients - though not necessarily in terms of liking naturals and disliking synthetics but rather this: not liking certain aroma chemicals, or not liking certain aroma chemicals if they are in higher concentration.

    Mumsy: Interesting to read your comments regarding CB scents. I have a sample - again thanks to kind Freddie - of CB Wild Pansy, but I haven't figured out a way to get the cap off (it's super tight and won't budge!) so haven't been able to sniff it yet. Now I will have to find a solution (any ideas?)!
    Last edited by Plaisir; 7th March 2013 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Hehe i made a new post which i like much better:-)
    Last edited by iivanita; 9th March 2013 at 07:32 PM.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    If the scent-buying public, en masse, demanded better they might stand an increasingly slim chance of getting it.
    And that just will not happen.
    And then the mundane becomes the norm, so the mass of people eventually know no better, a vicious, self-perpetuating circle.

    I always bought my daughter a variety of decent scents, suitable for her age, once she was old enough (and she used to sneak bits of some of mine too).
    So education is important.

    And the age of 'celebrity' plays a part, we worship 'icons' famous for little other than their fame & they launch scents (normally designed by someone else) that the gullible willingly consume by the bucketful. They know no better & probably care even less - the 'buy, spray, go' mentality. Don't question it, just buy it, everyone else does.
    So fashion plays a part, although this has not always been with negative effect.

    Certainly the composition is most important - give me the same oils/chemicals, as someone who knows what they are doing and you will have very different results! Natural or artificial.

    But good compositions have to be demanded by the consumer, who largely hasn't been of late, so regulations creep in and spread mediocrity as the accepted standard.
    Present company excluded

    As demand increases - people in China & India & parts of Africa, to mention just a few, now have disposable income so the resources are being stretched even further.

    In the U.K. we have, as a nation, traditionally been prepared to accept poor design and poor quality, in almost every sphere.

    Even going back to William Morris & the Arts & Crafts movement - there were even then people demanding better.
    Overseas, Tomas Ba'ta was a visionary demanding good design with an innovative approach to business and staff care.

    We are sorely lacking this kind of innovation as we become globally 'harmonised'.

    We are fortunate to have a few people with real talent and vision, but their art is increasingly hampered by petty regulations decided by committees who have no care about the effect of their decisions on consumers or artists.
    Stamp it, done, next one please.

    I am quite sure that other people can add to this - it's just my observation.

    Artists have always struggled, but I am sad that they should need to do so now.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    So what is natural smelling perfume?

    Every sense we have includes in itself all the other senses, that's why when we smell we imagine shapes, colours, loudness,texture etc.

    Taste is something different from objective info we get from our senses,
    So it makes it more complicated, we can agree something smells of apple or of orange but how good it smells we can not agree, its matter of individual taste?
    We can agree something tastes of meet or fish, but what quality it is we can not agree?

    Well i am not sure of that! I can tell the difference between bad, plastic strawberry that was not grown in good climate , from the one that's juicy, smelly fresh one.

    If it applies for tastes in food then it applies on the sense of smell too:-) ,because what instruments can you use to tell you about the difference? Probably the natural one will have more valuable vitamines, nutrients, and yet we know?

    What is the difference between air Freshener and 100 % synthetic perfume? If one can make 100 % synthetic perfume and it costs 6 usd per 100 ml, why it can not be used for bathroom too?


    synthetics increase variety of compositions i agree, yes they do to a certain extent though! (David gave some examples too), but then they decrease it heavily if they become the only play of the show, why? Its logical.


    because if one follows the logic and synthetics= naturals
    Then 100% synthetics = 100 % naturals
    90% synthetics =90 % naturals....and so on, and i know you would say 90 % naturals is too prohibiting:-)
    because we have heard that 100 % naturals are no good, and i think 100 % synthetics are noo good as well in the same manner i.e. are rarely very good:-) following the same logic


    Well i have asked about most natural smelling:-) , meaning the one that uses the most of natural ingredients beauty! If one can do it with synthetics only, i want to know the name of that perfume:-) following the vintage group i think that's the only way to go...naturals must be involved much more then they are today!

    That's how i meant it, and said my criteria is not % of natural things in perfume for the sake of it, just that i have seen this % shrunk heavily and the beauty of perfumes who take breath away together with it,

    And i wanted to analyse it by that criteria because it smees important, it can not be easily distinguished to all maybe, but thats because many have not even been exposed to real beauties of old time! I have smelled only few vintages, what if i have smelt more ?

    Yet i noticed something is wrong there? How:-) , because i saw my interest in perfumes go down, and i know i always liked good smells, like Plaisir said

    so many smell harsh ,screechy or thin, watered down( many Ellenas creations too). Why Plaisir has this same feeling as i have too about many many modern perfumes? I would like to know ? And she did not even try any vintages!

    With naturals one can at least enjoy the beauty of material if composition goes wrong, that's my view, aromatherapy is maybe not perfume but is something ......while bad synthetic creation is air freshener:-) like mobile phone price of things created by use of technology will go down , can be produced cheap and in huge quantities,


    I expect a perfume to resemble the nature, or the flower the same way as i expect a plum jam to resemble a fresh plum.

    No we don't want to smell like a flower, but if you mimic the smell of jasmine and make it doesn't smell nicer then the jasmine itself then that's a problem for me:-) ......when it smells like watered down detergent, pale , thin and like perfumer did not eat for days while making a perfume:-) its not staggering beauty!

    And one more thing, if everything is matter of taste, how come many of us name the same perfumes as the best?
    And what do they all share?:-)

    I called them most natural smelling perfumes:-) am i wrong there?

  20. #80
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Maybe they're just the best compositions?
    I don't know, Ivana.

    p.s. - my earlier post maybe crossed with yours due to server. x
    Last edited by lpp; 9th March 2013 at 08:22 PM.

  21. #81

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    The truth of any luxury items people buy is that the majority wants the best but also cheapest. So what consumer say they want and what they actually buy is based on this principle. Meaning if you want something different you need to either pay the right price that comes with artisan products or make your own... imho
    Customized consultancy on perfume formulation, safety, training and marketing & olfactory research
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  22. #82
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Maybe they're just the best compositions?
    I don't know, Ivana.
    Then their modern versions should be among top 20 as well:-)

    http://www.omda.bg/public/engl/ethno...production.htm

    I just read something nice:-) , to produce 1 ml or rose oil you have to use 3.70kg of roses, i think 3. 7 kg or roses cost more then the cost of all material put in 100 ml edp bottle

    I calculated that perfumes that contain 1 ml mix of naturals cost cca 135 usd, when i apply that price to amouage attars who cost 300 usd for 12 ml i get they are almost 90 % naturals.....they smell so to me at least:-) ....but i think price of perfumes talks a lot of their quality

    So a perfume bottle of 100 ml that contains 50 % of naturals should cost 1350 usd minimum

    This is my math:-) may be wrong but this makes sense to what i smell:-)

    I read some Guerlain perfume , bottle of 245ml costs 12500 eur, that means they used 100 % naturals which cost 4x more then this mix of naturals i used, which i think is some average quality........

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    The truth of any luxury items people buy is that the majority wants the best but also cheapest. So what consumer say they want and what they actually buy is based on this principle. Meaning if you want something different you need to either pay the right price that comes with artisan products or make your own... imho
    I agree, just realized what value one can get at what price....rough estimate:-)

  23. #83
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    http://www.saudicaves.com/saudi/roses.html

    But the good news is that they are now propagating by tissue culture

    And agree with Irina's advice.
    Last edited by lpp; 10th March 2013 at 09:42 AM.

  24. #84

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    Then their modern versions should be among top 20 as well:-)

    http://www.omda.bg/public/engl/ethno...production.htm

    I just read something nice:-) , to produce 1 ml or rose oil you have to use 3.70kg of roses, i think 3. 7 kg or roses cost more then the cost of all material put in 100 ml edp bottle

    I calculated that perfumes that contain 1 ml mix of naturals cost cca 135 usd, when i apply that price to amouage attars who cost 300 usd for 12 ml i get they are almost 90 % naturals.....they smell so to me at least:-) ....but i think price of perfumes talks a lot of their quality

    So a perfume bottle of 100 ml that contains 50 % of naturals should cost 1350 usd minimum

    This is my math:-) may be wrong but this makes sense to what i smell:-)

    I read some Guerlain perfume , bottle of 245ml costs 12500 eur, that means they used 100 % naturals which cost 4x more then this mix of naturals i used, which i think is some average quality........

    - - - Updated - - -



    I agree, just realized what value one can get at what price....rough estimate:-)
    You still don't get it do you? The cost of the bottle of Perfume has nothing to do with the cost of the raw materials inside the bottle. You cannot calculate the percentage of naturals by the cost of the finished product. I thought I had explained that above.

    Once again I have to repeat; there are good fragrances and there are bad fragrances, there are well constructed fragrances and there are poorly constructed fragrances. What is in them, whether Synthetic or Natural has nothingto do with the final result.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    :-)

    ....i know something about economy and prices, even if i don't understand the matter, one can calculate many things because everyone in the business is for profits and not for the charity, how they form a price? :-) i tried to give my rough guess,

    How did perfumery started? Not because man invented the smell, but because they found materials who smell nice......so it developed into fine fragrance industry....

    Why perfumes can not be used as air freshener ? What is the real difference between those 2?

    Believing someone will use 4x more dollars to make fragrance for the same price as competition is like thinking someone will put more gold into the ring for the same price.....perfume industry is preatty competitive one, and price tells a lot, my calculations led me believe they don't use more then 8 % natural material in the best of frags one can find out there! This would be like giving you some gifts:-) noone does that in a business

    Dear David i may be boring :-) but so far no facts proved this wrong:-)
    Last edited by iivanita; 10th March 2013 at 12:30 PM.

  26. #86
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    There are some enchanting stories about how rose oil was discovered, accidentally, & I have seen various versions of this.

    This is a good read:-
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ittar

    Amouage produce some amazing room sprays - if u ever see any, jump fast!
    And there are others - Al Haramain produce a few.
    They are safer than most 'western' ones, which may contain a lot of c**p and can have negative effects on health!

    You can put diluted oils in a spray, on an aromatherapy-type burner, etc.

    Some people even use out of favour scents as room spray, but not the reverse due to the chemicals not being designed for skin!

  27. #87

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The cost of the bottle of Perfume has nothing to do with the cost of the raw materials inside the bottle.
    Really, David?

    If you take the picture I showed earlier



    Here they talk about the price of juice at 0.75 euro. If the price of the juice would be say 4x as big due to the cost of more expensive used materials, the brand can use the same price algorithm and charge 4x 50 euro for the more expensive version, right?

    I think that is what Ivana is trying to say?

    (but then again there are brands that sell the juice of 0.75 euro for 200 euro anyways, so maybe that's where the confusion lies?)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    How did perfumery started? Not because man invented the smell, but because they found materials who smell nice......so it developed into fine fragrance industry....

    Why perfumes can not be used as air freshener ? What is the real difference between those 2?
    Ivana, there are many books on the history of the fragrance industry. It started with the scenting of gloves and shawls, then aroma trading, then the apothecary and later due to the industrial revolution and the development of modern chemistry it became a more mass oriented offering.

    Even now aroma trading & chemistry are still relevant but mass marketing & international sales have become much more important.

    That is why the way an indie perfumer prices his/her goods is very different than how say Chanel does it.

    The differences between a perfume & an air fragrance are many. Beside price, there is also concentration, other materials can be used because of less skin contact and how a scent disperses into space is of bigger importance.

    Again the % of naturals don't say much, I know of air fresheners that contain 10% all natural citronella oil (to repel mosquitoes for example) but that doesn't mean they smell nice or should be more expensive... It's a whole other target audience and use.
    Last edited by Irina; 10th March 2013 at 02:07 PM.
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  28. #88
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I think that we should value David's patience and also his generosity with his time - he has been in the game a long time and I should personally be most grateful for a fraction of his knowledge
    Last edited by lpp; 10th March 2013 at 03:02 PM.

  29. #89

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    I think that we should value David's patience and also his generosity with his time - he has been in the game a long time and I should personally be most grateful for a fraction of his knowledge
    Agreed and all the above is written and meant with all the respect. I would be grateful to hear more about the above and always stand corrected if I got my facts wrong.
    So please David if you know more about the price construction of perfume, I would be thrilled to know more. Thank you in advance!
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Hello Irina:-) , lpp,

    I think seeking the truth will not make anyone angry:-)

    I am so happy with my calculation...it went like this i assumed veroprofumo is saying the truth and uses 60- 70 % of naturals...took the cost of her perfume....just did simple math and came to the cost of 1 ml mix of naturals....because perfume prices do hover all around similar value, and she sells the most expensive stuff per ml....but i am sure she cant put the same profit margin as Chanel because veroprofumo is tiny brand!.....
    Using it for various perfumes it all kind of fit:-) , even fits for that most expensive guerlain thing......it is possible using all those super rare notes.like orris root, orange blossom, lilac,mimosa...that this mix costs 4 times more then one used for Onda........ so the numbers would fit there even for the most expensive juice..i mean you simply can not make prices out of the blue:-) ,

    Saying that cost of materials has nothing to do with the final price of the product, is like saying money is not important lol.


    It just does not seem logical to me that vintages are so much better the modern perfumes:-) even their own replicas!!...and veroprofumo perfumes smell really nice to me, but are expencive...
    So i did the math and i am quite happy for my use of it....i know its impossible to make natural smelling perfume at a price of 200 usd per 100 ml edp, that one does not exist among modern perfumery!
    Chanel asks 200 usd for 200 ml edt:-) and you know Chanel has huuuuuge margin:-) because its brand:-) so how much naturals can there possibly be:-) .....5% maybe, or less ,No 22 smells less natural then infusiond d iris by prada:-)
    Also look at chanel's pure perfume prices 15 ml goes for 175 usd, meaning there they used 43 % of naturals max....i suppose they use larger profit margins then veroprofumo so that can be as low as 20%

    I just think they are industries, they can not make up price from the air! On so much products! They can maybe make one better then the other but average cost is known and just put it through algorythm,...and there you go.--like all industrialized products....perfumers creativity stops there....

    Nah in the end one cant fool my nose, i trust him, he says modern perfumes have very little natural material .and that's the fact

    - - - Updated - - -

    Questions for David:

    1. Do you think modern perfumers palette, or organ is of better quality then one they had 50 years ago?
    2. Do you think its of greater variety too?
    3. If yes why among your top ten perfumes there is no single contemporary scent?
    4 does this mean that on average modern perfumers are less good?
    5. Why modern yatagan doesnt smell as nice as vintage?
    6. If some materials can not be used today doesn't that mean they are replaced by their synthetic version?
    7. can you say if vintage perfumes contain more naturals in general then modern perfumes( those after 2000)
    8.how many new natural materials are discovered each year?

    Perfumer skill will differentiate between good and bad composition, but the beauty of smell did not start with man, but with nature, all the beauty9. comes from nature......i am not looking for skillful perfumer but for nice perfume, and that includes nice materials as well:-)
    Why among top 10 perfumes you name only vintages?:-) ........

    9. Which perfumer is great artist in your view? Makes great perfumes?

  31. #91

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    i know its impossible to make natural smelling perfume at a price of 200 usd per 100 ml edp, that one does not exist among modern perfumery!
    This is possible: if you make it for yourself, not for profit. Look also at the small all natural indie perfumers, their profit is very small.

    If I take the price breakdown in the picture above, if you are a small brand and do all the distribution yourself (say sell only from your website) than you can cut down costs, offer a better price and still make a profit. Same with marketing: if you don't need focus groups, huge commercial video's with celebrities, you can add those expenses to the juice.

    But then again even if you have the best materials, but not the skills, you can still end up with an ugly perfume.

    You have to realize that even on a subliminal level perfume sells a magic dream, if you associate vintage with more 'natural magic', your brain will accommodate your beliefs and expectations. If you associate certain smells with 'not-natural' they will smell synthetic, even if they are not (think about the all natural perfume you were writing about 'Tawaf', that smells very screetchy harsh even synthetic to me).

    That is why it is hard to put a price tag on talent. imho.
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  32. #92
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    oh yes i can imagine all those things you say Irina,

    in a way i can differentiate smell from taste, Tawaf is def not my taste, still it did not smell synthetic to me at all.......it smelled raw....muddy etc....i am no perfumer but i know where the problem comes from
    perfume is 20% essence and 80% alc.

    so one has to be able to differentiate those 10% in the best case from one perfume to another...some people get lost there...

    sniffing modern perfumes i just dont think people dont have skills there are many 4-5 stars perfumes which i think are GREAT!! so like 100s of them...still they smell synthetic...it has nothing to do with the beauty of the composition....

    unfortunately thats the fact, and this is what my nose gets as well.....why is this so? i think some answers on the questions i asked for David would make more light....

    i just dont understand how a perfumer can not explain what has chnaged, and why he only loves vintages...where is the logic there?

    i know how they do it...they make nice perfume, use naturals only when they cant do similar thing cheaper, and then calculate...they dont maximasie beauty , they maximize allways profits.....thats why we can not get that uplifting effect from modern perfumery anymore....we get beautiful synthetic creation....and i agree there are LOADS of skillful , and great composer...yet there is not LOADS of great perfumes.....

    also i went to profumo.it page...and checked for price of 1ml of pure essence and see how much it costs from 60 usd cheapest to 180 usd...and this again makes sense!.......

    in the end you all said perfumes get discontinued....becuse materials not avaliable, cost rise...so lets see what all is not in the production anymore.... i too thought its just pure hype about vintages...and discontinued stuff, like some psychological moment(you remember my vintage thoughts hehe)........but no people are not crazy nor nostaligc those things had more natural stuff in them! and hence more beauty!

    who can prove me wrong? thats my assumption and it makes all soo much sense to me

    i noticed also that i fall much faster for synthetic perfume, and natural one takes me some time to appreciate, but then....its all opposite in the long run .....

    almost similar as with that plasticky nice fruit, vs natural one you fall for the looks
    oh yes they are both grown in nature so what is natural fruit?.......lol
    plasticky fruit is longlasting too
    it shines
    and looks like more value for money lol

    honestly i think modern perfumery is converging big time to air Fresheners! or they are gtting better and better

    please forgive me all for beeing stubborn and maybe boring lol...but i needed to understand this..and roughly put value...i think one has to have knowledge about anything he buys much more then just the taste...to not feel stupid when overpaying.....that is true for everything....its nice when one can buy value for money..and has some relations..where is the value
    Last edited by iivanita; 11th March 2013 at 09:45 AM.

  33. #93

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Too many posts since my last one (surprisingly I have a life away from Basenotes) so forgive me if I don't cover every point raised.

    First of all, and most important I did not call anyone "boring".

    When I said that the cost of raw materials had nothing to do with the cost of the finished fragrance, I meant that the cost of RMs had so little to do with it that it could be ignored. It is not possible as iivanita assumed, to be able to calculate the percentage of naturals by the cost of the finished fragrance. I gave an example above, to show how much the juice in the bottle actually costs, she seems to have ignored that. So I will repeat it; with Rose Oil. To make things simple, let us assume that Rose Otto costs 1000.00/Kg. It is more but , as I say, keep it simple. Let us sell a perfume containing only a 10.0% solution of Rose Otto in alcohol, and to keep it simple we will ignore the cost of the alcohol. So a kilo of this solution costs 100.00. So 100.00gms of this should cost? you tell me. And tell me also, how this relates to the cost of any fragrance you can buy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    Questions for David:

    1. Do you think modern perfumers palette, or organ is of better quality then one they had 50 years ago?
    2. Do you think its of greater variety too?
    3. If yes why among your top ten perfumes there is no single contemporary scent?
    4 does this mean that on average modern perfumers are less good?
    5. Why modern yatagan doesnt smell as nice as vintage?
    6. If some materials can not be used today doesn't that mean they are replaced by their synthetic version?
    7. can you say if vintage perfumes contain more naturals in general then modern perfumes( those after 2000)
    8.how many new natural materials are discovered each year?

    Perfumer skill will differentiate between good and bad composition, but the beauty of smell did not start with man, but with nature, all the beauty9. comes from nature......i am not looking for skillful perfumer but for nice perfume, and that includes nice materials as well:-)
    Why among top 10 perfumes you name only vintages?:-) ........

    9. Which perfumer is great artist in your view? Makes great perfumes?
    [1. Modern perfumer's palette is much better than 50 years ago because there are more materials of a more consistent quality.

    2. Not sure about greater variety, as some materials have been banned or restricted, whilst others have stopped being made. On the other hand, new materials have been introduced.

    3. The fragrances i mentioned before were my favourites I agree. I could have mentioned others, such as Perfumer's Workshop "Tea Rose". I think I mentioned "Timbukto", if I didn't I include it now. Prada "infusion d'Iris", "Poison", "Opium", etc.

    4. I don't know. Many fragrances released (and I think the problem is that there are too many fragrances released) are of poor quality. I think the whole philosophy of selling fragrances has changed. Fragrances are no longer made to be a signature fragrance that will last throughout your life time. Fragrances are made to last for a few months, maybe a year or two and then be forgotten. This is all part of a society with a smaller attention span, who craves new stimuli all the time.

    5. Reformulations of older fragrances will never smell as good as the original, because they will be different. I agree that the loss of certain materials (such as Oakmoss) will cause a huge problem, and we will lose a lot of good stuff. I think this is a great shame. I have never argued that naturals have no part to play in Perfumery. Indeed I have said that a good, well blended perfume uses what is available in the best possible way.

    6. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are synthetic versions of Civet, Castoreum, Ambergris and Musk. As yet, there is no synthetic version of Oakmoss, which is as good as the real thing.

    7. Before 1880 fragrances only contained naturals. In general I would say that the fragrances of the 20s and 30s contained, probably more naturals than those of the 50s and 60s, as there were fewer synthetics that perfumers could use. So what. Perfumers make the best of what is available.

    8. I have no idea. To launch a new material, natural or synthetic, is a very expensive business. There has been a noticeable reduction of new material launches in the past 10 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=iivanita;2871501]


    "..i know its impossible to make natural smelling perfume at a price of 200 usd per 100 ml edp, that one does not exist among modern perfumery!


    Nah in the end one cant fool my nose, i trust him, he says modern perfumes have very little natural material .and that's the fact"

    - - - Updated - - -


    It is possible to make a natural smelling perfume for the cost you mention ($200/100ml), I showed you how.

    And finally, yes your nose can be fooled. You cannot trust your nose, you are clearly being fooled. The "fact" you mention is just your opinion, and your opinion is wrong.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 11th March 2013 at 09:48 AM.

  34. #94

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    and i agree there are LOADS of skillful , and great composer...yet there is not LOADS of great perfumes.....
    That comment may contain the knowledge we seek.......

    The great perfume houses used to spend a great deal of time, expertise and research on their perfumes. Each and every one was designed with longevity in mind and with the idea that once chosen, a perfume may be a persons signature scent - for life. New perfumes were not introduced so regularly as now.

    There is such a flurry of profit chasing these days, that just maybe, new perfumes are being churned out too fast with economic production costs as the main criteria for the brief. It seems all too common today to see a new perfume house crop up, with no known pedigree and a new and complete range of many perfumes that apparently came out of the blue. Well how long would someone like the house of Guerlain take to produce that many new perfumes and after what degree of spend to get there?

    I'm obviously not anti indie perfumers by saying that, because economy is not their primary consideration, but time is a friend of a good perfume creation surely? Can twelve new perfumes be designed in a short space of time and all still be comparable?

    I know what I think.
    Last edited by mumsy; 11th March 2013 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    "..i know its impossible to make natural smelling perfume at a price of 200 usd per 100 ml edp, that one does not exist among modern perfumery!


    Nah in the end one cant fool my nose, i trust him, he says modern perfumes have very little natural material .and that's the fact"

    - - - Updated - - -


    It is possible to make a natural smelling perfume for the cost you mention ($200/100ml), I showed you how.

    And finally, yes your nose can be fooled. You cannot trust your nose, you are clearly being fooled. The "fact" you mention is just your opinion, and your opinion is wrong.[/QUOTE]


    great , thank you very much for your answers David ....this is valuable info everyone can read them for themselves and will draw best conclusions noone needs anyone to interpret facts for them
    dont you see the trend? 20s 30s contain more then 70s 80s that contain more then 2010 , 2012 ?....
    yes i smelled it exactly how you confirmed

    knowing all the answers from 1-8 takes just to do 1+1

    how a cost of material relates to perufme?...lets see in your example 100gr would cost 10 usd...and that is not true cost, you made it up!, you can not expect someone will compare invented 10 usd number with real perfumes costs?

    lets figure out the real cost? its probably 4 times more! so there we go we allready come to 40 USD of materials only!

    like Irina said its possible to make a perfume for yourself at those costs, but to buy it there in the market i say its impossible!!

    and you give me the name of the perfume that has 50% of naturals 100ml bottle for 200 usd i will go an buy it from a house that has at least some name ....not indie perfumery ...and such niche houses that i never heard of

    on to synthetic materials...yes synthetic civet is awful....compared to the real one the same difference i have from vintage to modern perfumery...what lead me start this thread.....
    its not the same thing
    if it is same thing for oyu..thats why we disagree -----

    David thank you so much for taking time and sharing some facts with us!! this helped me tremendously

    - - - Updated - - -

    technology made it possible to make new scents with this speed....
    its like industrial production....how can you mix industrial production with artistry

    and some luxury?

    i can't
    Last edited by iivanita; 11th March 2013 at 10:49 AM.

  36. #96

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Thank you, David for taking the time to answer Ivana's questions, very interesting!
    And I totally agree with you, Mumsy.

    Ivana: I'm afraid that you are right: the commercial designer or big niche won't provide you with what you're looking for. Simply because consumers like you are a very tiny minority that won't bring the big bucks in. Only small niche or indie houses are willing to take that risk, but then you don't want those... It's what they call it 'a catch 22'
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    hehehe dear Irina i do want them!! i just did not know where to look,and i did not know they exist first place let alone i even tried any...

    special thanks to all of you!!

  38. #98

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    So iivanita, because you do not agree with my figures you say that I made them up! Which figure did I make up? Rose Otto costs about 1000.00/Kg. The rest follows. The cost of Rose Otto 10.0% in ethanol costs 100.00 /Kg. Therefore the cost of 100.00 gms of Rose Otto 10.0% costs 10.00. That is the Raw Material cost. What did I make up?

    I think mumsy's reasoning is quite sound. Lack of quality is not to do with the amount of natural in a fragrance, but the way the fragrance is composed.

    I am beginning to think that there is no point in continuing this discussion ; you either cannot, or will not, understand my argument, and continue to ignore it. I find that very annoying and frustrating.

  39. #99

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by iivanita View Post
    hehehe dear Irina i do want them!! i just did not know where to look,and i did not know they exist first place let alone i even tried any...

    special thanks to all of you!!
    iivanita: to counteract your argument that there are no natural-smelling perfumes out there (which you seem to use as a synomym for "high quality scent"):
    Have you tried any of the following and if yes, did they disappoint you?
    Musc Ravageur, Carnal Flower, Bois d'Iris (TDC), Jasmin de Nuit, L'air du Desert Maroccain, Tea for Two, anything from Ormonde Jayne or Mona di Orio, the new Grand Amour or Songes from Annick Goutal, Tam Dao, Profumum Santalum, about half of the Serge Lutens scents, and I could go on...

    I'm really curious. I think it's just a matter of sampling more to find modern scents which will steal your heart/nose, I'm sure you'll even find great treasures among scents which don't have many natural ingredients.

    Btw, I fully agree with David Ruskin that the end price of a bottle of perfume is rarely determined by the price of the raw materials (an exception might be Mona di Orio's Oud...).

  40. #100

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    The value of any fragrance is in its perception. The value to one person will be different to another depending on that persons values and tastes. That cannot be utterly divorced from final product expense nor the cost of raw materials I suspect. The former image and sales may depend more on advertising and packaging, but the longevity of the product will surely ultimately depend on the quality of ingredients and the amount of time invested in its development.

    Another foodie example might be this:-
    A first bracket of people would like to try any cuisine in any restaurant because they prefer to have their palette do the choosing with the whole range available and that is fine for them. But a second bracket of persons with any prior conditions such as vegetarians or religious meat preferences will prefer to track down the most suitable restaurant that suits their personal choices before choosing to eat. It may narrow the overall experiences available in comparison to the former, but does not disqualify them from having a comparably good experience.

    The scenario could be along the lines of the first bracket of people asking the second to try the superb steak done at the finest French restaurant because it was so wonderful, flavoursome and incomparable. These people in the second example would much rather taste food that has only the ingredients within it that satisfy their own life choice. The comparable pleasure would be far greater for them to be without the suggested ingredients and to deliberately miss that experience. The overall life experience would not be less, but would be different. In refining their taste buds to be without that type of meal, the second groups enjoyment would be enhanced by something else and the meat just not possible to enjoy, no matter how nice.

    I am right now sitting here with a superb agarwood on one hand. It is pure, complex and stunning. A complete and fantastic perfume from nature with many levels of complexity, many levels of beauty. It is a sustainable sort as far as I understand.
    BUT
    a tiny micro smear will scent this left hand for not hours, but days, and it will not wash off. These materials may be scarce, but not very much is needed to achieve the same as a bucket of whatever copies its form, its aroma, it's longevity and silage.
    One would need very little of both the raw ingredient and not much else to make the most fantastic perfume with this.

    I know that is an extreme, but it does illustrate that perfection has been researched and pretty much solved by a thing called nature. It is amazing in the context of this discussion, that the products such as Sandalwood, Agarwood, Rose, Jasmine, Musk, Ambergris, Orris butter etc etc are still considered the very best perfumery ingredients. All of which are difficult to obtain, and are natural and powerful in smell. The smells of these are so extraordinarily perfect that man will go to amazing lengths to extract such tiny amounts with so much work to do so. If the synthetic versions were half as good, then these naturals would no longer be sought after because of the difficulty in obtaining them in any form or quantity.

    To be given real choice in any understanding is surely then to know in advance which type of 'restaurant' to 'eat' at, to those who actively wish to discriminate beforehand for whatever reasons they choose to do so. It is hardly surprising that the perfumes that seem the most respected contain higher amounts of 'valuable' substances, be they one or the other and that modern rulings and cost cutting methods have decreased the quality of the same perfumes.

    This is where one needs to be getting nearer to, to gain any nearer a true understanding of what these differences really mean to the quality of the final landmark fragrances that can be considered remarkable for a long time.

  41. #101
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    So iivanita, because you do not agree with my figures you say that I made them up! Which figure did I make up? Rose Otto costs about 1000.00/Kg. The rest follows. The cost of Rose Otto 10.0% in ethanol costs 100.00 /Kg. Therefore the cost of 100.00 gms of Rose Otto 10.0% costs 10.00. That is the Raw Material cost. What did I make up?

    I think mumsy's reasoning is quite sound. Lack of quality is not to do with the amount of natural in a fragrance, but the way the fragrance is composed.

    I am beginning to think that there is no point in continuing this discussion ; you either cannot, or will not, understand my argument, and continue to ignore it. I find that very annoying and frustrating.
    David apologize i did not read it well!! ok that is 15 usd then but you and i know that there is TRO at various prices so finest can cost probably 3 times more....it varies all a lot....
    and this is only rose, where are at least other 4-5 important ingredients....that all adds up?

    and what is your argument there? that 200 usd bottle can have 30 usd of value in materials? or maybe 60 usd? english is not my mother language, i missread it in a hurry sorry about that!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsai View Post
    iivanita: to counteract your argument that there are no natural-smelling perfumes out there (which you seem to use as a synomym for "high quality scent"):
    Have you tried any of the following and if yes, did they disappoint you?
    Musc Ravageur, Carnal Flower, Bois d'Iris (TDC), Jasmin de Nuit, L'air du Desert Maroccain, Tea for Two, anything from Ormonde Jayne or Mona di Orio, the new Grand Amour or Songes from Annick Goutal, Tam Dao, Profumum Santalum, about half of the Serge Lutens scents, and I could go on...

    I'm really curious. I think it's just a matter of sampling more to find modern scents which will steal your heart/nose, I'm sure you'll even find great treasures among scents which don't have many natural ingredients.

    Btw, I fully agree with David Ruskin that the end price of a bottle of perfume is rarely determined by the price of the raw materials (an exception might be Mona di Orio's Oud...).
    Thank you very much Bonsai for trying to help!!.....but pls read my introductory post i have named some of those houses so far i have tried many scents-----
    its not matter of taste! i just noticed they are all very simmilar compared to the scents that were done 50 years ago compared to those that i know have more naturals (did you try those?? veroprofumo and profumo? if you did not you must then you will smell what is natural! i smelled the pattern if that makes sense!
    did you ever smell Homage ? or any vintage?


    dear David you said it all in the sentence : so what? perfumers make the best of what they have!


    in a way i got all my answers allready

    David please dont be frustrated because of this thread i am kind of person that never accepts value statements i like numbers , facts, logic....and the whole story must fit....you are in huge advantage over me: english is your mother tounge and you are perfumer

    how can you explain your statement? when all your answers from 1-8 support more my statement then your value statement : that there are only good and bad compositions

  42. #102

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Last time iivanita. I answered your questions and in doing so, I do not think that I agreed with you at all. My answers do not support your statement, and if you think I did, you are wrong.

    You say that you are the kind of person "that never accepts value statements" and then go on to base your entire argument on your own, very biased, opinion. You state that the more natural material in a fragrance the better it is, though you do not explain what "better" means; I suspect it means that you like it. You state that the more naturals there are in a fragrance (and so, the better the fragrance is) the more expensive it is. This is also wrong, and I proved it to you twice. you still do not accept my arguments but prefer, your feelings, your instinct, your nose.

    Sorry, I don't want to come over as a Divo, but I have had enough. We do not agree; fine. I hope you find the fragrance, and everything else, you are looking for. And I'm sure that when you do, you will convince yourself that it is full of naturals whether it is, or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've just looked on Google. 100 ml of Molecule 01 costs 64.00. Lady Gaga's Fame costs 52.00 for 100 ml. So according to the above argument, Molecule 01 must contain more naturals than Fame, even though we know that there is nothing natural about Molecule 01.

  43. #103

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Ivana, dear, I'm sorry but I think that something is going wrong in translation. I think that you should take some time and re-read all the input here as some of your words contradict themselves.
    Both David and mumsy make very good points.
    But none else but yourself can find out about your taste and why it smells natural or not to your nose, it is very subjective.

    There are soooooo many different perfumes out there, many from indie perfumers that could work with you and tell you honestly how much naturals they use. You can even ask one of them to make you a custom perfume. But no theory in the world will be able to predict if a perfume fits your taste other than you simply smelling it. Just my opinion...
    Customized consultancy on perfume formulation, safety, training and marketing & olfactory research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    THE thread for all newbies DIY fragrance

  44. #104
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Last time iivanita. I answered your questions and in doing so, I do not think that I agreed with you at all. My answers do not support your statement, and if you think I did, you are wrong.

    You say that you are the kind of person "that never accepts value statements" and then go on to base your entire argument on your own, very biased, opinion. You state that the more natural material in a fragrance the better it is, though you do not explain what "better" means; I suspect it means that you like it. You state that the more naturals there are in a fragrance (and so, the better the fragrance is) the more expensive it is. This is also wrong, and I proved it to you twice. you still do not accept my arguments but prefer, your feelings, your instinct, your nose.

    Sorry, I don't want to come over as a Divo, but I have had enough. We do not agree; fine. I hope you find the fragrance, and everything else, you are looking for. And I'm sure that when you do, you will convince yourself that it is full of naturals whether it is, or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've just looked on Google. 100 ml of Molecule 01 costs 64.00. Lady Gaga's Fame costs 52.00 for 100 ml. So according to the above argument, Molecule 01 must contain more naturals than Fame, even though we know that there is nothing natural about Molecule 01.
    :-)

    Hehe i did not loose nerves here, if something costs less then 135 usd from branded products, then it contains less then 1 ml of pure essence, of natural origin:-) what else it has :-) i dont care really...i know i dont enjoy it.....can you show finally some example?? i was reading all the way back and saw very little numbers from you
    Perfume is like industry, lost its soul...or diluted it heavily:-)


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Last time iivanita. I answered your questions and in doing so, I do not think that I agreed with you at all. My answers do not support your statement, and if you think I did, you are wrong.

    .

    questions from 1-9. show some pattern......all the valuable things are gone! and are used in almost irrelevant quantities! (i love that Iris by Prada btw it smells most natural for that price still its very thinned down and has that synthetic vibe..is it benzoin or what...but ok that is accaptable for the price!! and very happy i tried it, becasue what i thought i tried was mens version!! which i liked but is not that nice as womens version)

    when i listen to you its like dogma, it should not be put to the test, by logical reasoning....that amazes me where this comes from??

    every answer i recieved here fits into my world of thinking...just the one that says that only perfumer skill is important , doesnt fit in, as well as: its irrelevant what perfumes are made of! its so relevant and vitnages prove it

    i just need to go and smell vintage Mitsouko....its not my favourite composition, nor set of notes...and i can not stop admiring it, that complexity and how natural vibe it sends out, is that from oak moss or galbaum i dont know......or vintage Caleche....or vintage Samsara...now

    i dont feel i am doing anything bad here...but asking some normal logical questions and not getting the same kind of answers.....what should i do with an answer: i dont know ...if you dont know who knows?

    i dont think my language is probem here... i thought i missread but it did not, David wrote:
    To make things simple, let us assume that Rose Otto costs 1000.00/Kg. It is more but , as I say, keep it simple. Let us sell a perfume containing only a 10.0% solution of Rose Otto in alcohol, and to keep it simple we will ignore the cost of the alcohol. So a kilo of this solution costs 100.00. So 100.00gms of this should cost? you tell me

    now?? is my language that bad?? you said its more!!so i said how do you expect me to compare invented price to real prices!!
    why 100ml EDT can not have 15 usd of material costs! that sells for 100 usd! dear Irina you posted that chart....i am very logical here when asking this that WAS my question...i dont get it why they dont use more natural materials....not just rose..but some other as well...why is all pumped up by that synthetic feeling

    and to finish it my conclusion is...if things are made with more natural ingredients i am sure!! i would love many more perfumes and enjoy them then i do now .....

    - - - Updated - - -

    yes the best Question for anyone who wants to answer here is : WHAT do you base your arguments on?

    i heard from David only dogmatic statements like this:
    1.
    Once again I have to repeat; there are good fragrances and there are bad fragrances, there are well constructed fragrances and there are poorly constructed fragrances. What is in them, whether Synthetic or Natural has nothingto do with the final result.

    *woops that doesnt explain vintages for me good enough!! who is illogical there?

    2.
    Other than those Perfumers who only use natural extracts, all Perfumers are huge fans of synthetics. They provide an aspect of Perfumery impossible without them. Some Perfumers are average, a few Like Elena are great. They all use the same materials; some use them better than others.


    *yes i noticed this too ....they just use too much of it lol, i noticed too they all use the same material hence to my nose all the same experience!! just reshuffeling

    3.We seem to be going through a period of crassness and poor quality in Perfumery. For what ever reason (and I don't think it is the quality or type of ingredient) most of the new fragrance launches are not very good. I guess it was ever thus; just seems to be a hell of a lot more of them than ever before. Not sure what to do about that, nor if things will change

    *i think the reason is poor natural ingreidents palette, little variety!

    4.Price is obviously an issue, and where it is possible to replace an expensive natural with a cheaper alternative (which in the opinion of the Perfumer, is as good) then that will be done.

    5.When I said that the cost of raw materials had nothing to do with the cost of the finished fragrance, I meant that the cost of RMs had so little to do with it that it could be ignored

    *4. and 5. CONTRADICT

    girls and boys...i think i am the only one here who do not contradict herself!!
    Last edited by iivanita; 11th March 2013 at 10:16 PM.

  45. #105
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Dear Ivana,
    You have had a range of excellent advice from people who know way more than we two ever will but their patience is failing because they know that the answer lies within you.

    You maybe need to reflect not only on what they have told you, but also on what you are personally looking for - nobody else can find it, nobody else can explain it, because what pleases each individual we must find ourselves.

    Irina, for example, has given you some valuable advice - if you don't like 'mainstream', go elsewhere.
    For me, that has involved looking to the Middle East for ideas - yet another minefield to negotiate.

    You can't define your appreciation of a scent by mathematics or ingredients.
    Explore.
    And the search itself will be an education - you already know what you don't like, so you're on your way.
    It may take you years.
    But you have to find it yourself.
    My daughter has a mathematician's brain, so I understand your problem, but cannot solve it.
    She told me recently that her generation has become used to instant answers but she has now understood that this is not always possible

    There is much science in scent, but the joy, the art, is for each of us to find ourselves.

  46. #106
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    dear lpp i totaly agree with you!! i am really thankful for this discussion, and it is great learning....and every single post here i read really carefully, only the last one from mumsy was difficult language wise lol...but i will get through it i get the idea sort of...

    .... just finished my post above ...

    i noticed things in the stories here that just dont fit the logic ....

    you know in every field it is kind of a rule if you can not explain things in simple and clear way..then....its not the problem in the one who asks

    i came here seeking answers, i got all my answers..... and i finished it with special thanks ...
    Last edited by iivanita; 11th March 2013 at 10:30 PM.

  47. #107
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    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    Just enjoy the journey Ivana

    & sleep well

  48. #108

    Default Re: most natural smelling perfumes and most synthetic smelling ones

    I think all the answers are here now in a jumbled thread fashion, and a very nice thrash out of many points raised with lots of patience and understanding, even when disagreeing on many points. Showing a calibre of personality all round that is I think what makes basenotes so very, very nice. This thread needs to be digested and picked at with points sorted out and taken where they are wished for.

    Experience is just that. Time and sampling will give the answers. There is much to be smelled and I'm sure that the way will become very clear. That which is lovely to one may be unpleasant to another. Is that not what makes this such a wonderful task? Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

    There is only one real answer and that is to smell as much as possible with a goal and a questioning mind. For anyone wishing to smell a certain ingredient to answer a point, then just ask and we can do a sample pass of certain fragrances and one or some of the relevant ingredients (if we have them). Then smell for ourselves the difference.

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