Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. #1

    Default Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Now that I have a gazillion little bottles, I'm realizing (quickly) that I need to start diluting many of these.

    The EOs have been fairly easy and mostly obvious. I just gave myself 1% and .1% in alcohol of the strong ones.

    But what about the Aroma Chemicals and Aldehydes? I'm assuming I can dilute them in alcohol, too?

    I'd love to dilute things like FLORALOZONE, INDOLE and C-11 (holey moley that's a strong one!).

    I've got my "Perfumers Alcohol" here:

    http://www.creatingperfume.com/32oun...rsalcohol.aspx

    I'm assuming that will work?

    Also, a lot of these I have are already diluted (50% and 30%).

    Any advice will be much appreciated!

    +++

    PS, Chris, I read your blog post:

    http://pellwall-perfumes.blogspot.co...-blending.html

    And just want to make 100% sure I'm doing this right

  2. #2

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Sure, your alcohol will be just fine.

    Are you diluting by weight?

    I've never actually diluted everything I own. But if doing so helps, then by all means!

    Pretty much, the "C" aldehydes should be diluted, simply to work with, unless you are trying to overdose them on purpose.
    And certainly the Indole , and if you are diluting everything else, than you better dilute *all* of your materials to learn with.

    After you learn the materials, you may not need to predilute all of your materials.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Yeah. I'm working on a very, very small scale here. At first. And then… total world domination!!!


  4. #4

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Hi JungleNYC,

    diluting has a few positive effects, at least for me:

    1. it makes them easier to handle and experiment with formulations on a small scale, to end up with 5ml to 10ml EDP strength try-outs
    2. it makes them easier to smell on scent strips; diluted they often give away much more of their scent character and richness
    3. the really strong ones can't be handled properly if you're not talking industry kilogram batches of finished EDP products Especially the Aldehydes and Indole mentioned.

    I always look them up on TheGoodScentsCompany, and if the odor profile indicates STRONG, i always dilute to 10% or less, as low as .1%. Most often i start to dilute a small part to 10% and take 10% of it to dilute to 1%, so i can play with 100%, 10% and 1%. (Thats why i am short on office space, i suppose #LOL).

    Happy perfuming!

    Your'e welcome to visit my formulation blog, with a dozen of perfume formulations and accords to share!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Jsparla,
    This is something I am trying to figure out as well. Some of the chemicals I want to buy are already diluted to 30%. What I want to know is: do you then dilute that are pre-diluted chemical to 10%? To 1%? If so, how would I do that by liquid volume. I don't plan to work with a scale, as this is a hobby and math is not my strong suit. The dilution is confusing to me when I want to buy pre-diluted materials. Some pure materials would be cost prohibitive to use.
    When you make you trials with diluted materials, you don't add further alcohol because the alcohol is already there?
    I hope this is clear. Thanks for any help you can provide.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    It depends. If my pre-diluted chems are easy to handle (not to strong), like lets say Galaxolide that comes standard in 50% DPG, i don't dilute it any further.
    But, let's say Abrocenide that comes standard in a 10% dilution, i dilute further to 1% because even at 10% it's way to strong to handle.

    I know, weight is far more better than volume... I work with drops myself, i'm not a professional and don't intend to sell my perfumes. My kick is in the creative process, not in business and exact reproduction.

    So when i wan't to have this 1% Ambrocenide, i take 1 ml of Ambrocenide at 10% and add 9 ml of ethanol.
    The ethanol ratios are like 1:99 for 1%, 1:3 for 25%, 1:4 for 20%, 1:9 for 10%..., well you get it

    Although i've used diluted ingredients in my fragrance composition, the total mixture is far from diluted to a level which one could say is EDP (about 25%) or EDT (about 15%) strength; see the FAQ on my blog.
    Let's say the total fragrance mixture in oils and aroma chems is 80 drops. Then i do NOT recalculate it to the numbers of drops it would have been if none of the ingredients where diluted. A part of the 80 drops will indeed often be a drop that consists of a part ethanol and part aroma chemical, due to previous dilution. So if the 80 drops (that's about 4 ml) should be on EDP strength (25%), then i add 12 ml of ethanol. And that is my final product.

    My sample formulas on my blog will show what i mean. (see link below).

    Happy perfuming!

    Your'e welcome to visit my formulation blog, with a dozen of perfume formulations and accords to share!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Thank you so much! That has cleared up my dilemma. I will definitely visit your blog.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Jsparla, your blog is great! Thank you for sharing with us!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    hey guys,

    I'm beginning to venture into the world of of aroma chemicals and had a question about solubility...

    If I'm working with fractionated coconut oil, will acids, aldehydes, alcohols, esters, ketones or any of that fun stuff ever dissolve to make a proper dilution?

    As I'll be working with natural isolates, i'm trying to keep my solvent as natural as possible. I have high-proof alcohol on the way, but I understand there are solubility issues here for certain chemicals (polarity?).

    Also curious about applicable solvents that would also work with candle-wax.

    Any advice is much appreciated!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Alcohol (ethanol) is not soluble in coconut oil. Some aroma chemicals and some Essential Oils will be soluble in Coconut oil, but not all of them. Coconut oil will go into candle wax although it is not the best solvent to use; you will not get very good projection. The best solvents for candles are synthetic; iso Propyl Myristate, Diethyl Phthalate and Dioctyl Adipate.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Thanks David!

    Good to know coconut oil will affect projection in candles.

    I can't say 'natural' is my absolute priority, but it might be a shame to lose out on the option of labeling these candles as natural because of my solvent choice. I'll be trying out the solvents you mentioned... maybe you can recommend the best natural alternative as well?

    I've got some benzyl benzoate on the way... how does this stuff factor in for both candles and diluting the more polar aroma chemicals?

    I should probably prod about candlemaking elsewhere.... one more question if you will... how do candles perform using zero solvent with the fragrance concentrate? Do solvents actually improve candle performance, or simply aroma chemical workability (e.g. certainly we'd need a solvent to inlclude raspberry ketone in a candle)?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Benzyl Benzoate that is generally used in Perfumery is made synthetically (it is referred to as "Nature Identical"). It is possible to buy "Natural" Benzyl Benzoate but it would be fearsomely expensive. If you want to use a lot of polar materials in a candle a mix of Benzyl Benzoate and Benzyl Alcohol will help get them to dissolve in the candle. I once made a Vanilla fragrance which had a lot of Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin in it, and the mix was the only way I could get it to work. About 10.0% Benzoate,, and 5.0% Alcohol.

    So your "all natural candle", what wax will you use? A good natural solvent would be Castor OIl, although even that will tend to suppress the fragrance strength.

    Using a highly concentrated fragrance with no solvent can work very well with candles. As always it depends on the formula. Make a very toppy fragrance, and you should have no problems. IPM can often help to project, and often the choice of solvent will affect performance.

    You going to use "natural" Raspberry Ketone too? You are a very wealthy person.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Thanks David you are very helpful!

    Great to know about the benzyl mix.. might I ask about the mechanism here? More aromachem polarity = more need for the Benzyl Alcohol?

    As for wax we're planning the soy route.. there's a few pounds of EcoSoya CB Advanced (container blend) lying around that we're trying first. I'll make sure Castor Oil's on the shopping list and eventually we'll compare its performance with IPM and maybe others (if we need solvents at all!). Ending up with a natural product is ideal, but good performance is more important. That being said, I'm fairly committed to avoiding paraffin.

    On the note of naturals, lol, a wealthy person I am not. All of the synthetics here are nature-identical, so the doors are (mostly) left open for a conversion to 'all-natural'.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Nature identical is not natural; if you think it is, you are fooling yourself. If you claim "all natural" and use nature identical but synthetic materials, you are not telling the truth.

    Benzyl Alcohol/Benzyl Benzoate mix seems to be the perfect solution to dissolving highly polar materials into a non polar solvent.

    It would be interesting to compare Castor Oil with IPM, please report back.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    I should clarify that last bit: I have no intention of labeling the candles as all-natural until we replace the nature-identical chemicals with true naturals. If we manage to formulate candles that perform well with natural solvents and wax, then we'll consider swapping the nature-identicals for naturals and labeling it thusly. I'm sure pricing supplies will play a part in this decision too.

    I've yet to compare any naturals with their synthetic equivalents... of course this may also affect our decision. Any experience here?

    Lots of experimenting ahead... I will certainly post back on Castor Oil vs IPM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Expect to pay a minimum of 10X the $ price for natural materials from Synthetics. Sounds like even more for the Raspberry Ketone though.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  16. #16

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    There was a (short) period when we were asked to make All Natural fragrances (and occasionally Organic fragrances). The cost was, as Paul mentions, huge. At least 10 times the price of the equivalent synthetic; often much more. Don't even ask for the price of certified Organic materials. When our customers realised how much they would have to pay, their interest seemed to fade.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    yeesh...well...good to know. Admittedly I've yet to get around to most of that nitty-gritty.

    Another nail in the coffin for my all-natural ideals.

    At least this will help me justify the mounting temptation to just buy that shopping cart full of synthetic musks on P.A.. Celestolide sounds like it came from space... I can't wait.

    Thanks again for the illumination!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    It is possible to make all natural fragrances that are not over the top expensive, by using only Essential Oils, and a natural solvent such as Castor Oil. It starts getting pricey when you use natural chemicals, specific chemicals extracted from Essential Oils. It is possible to buy a lot of natural aroma chemicals; but be prepared to pay.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 8th April 2014 at 04:16 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    It is possible to make all natal fragrances that are not over the top expensive, by using only Essential Oils, and a natural solvent such as Castor Oil. It starts getting pricing when you use natural chemicals, specific chemicals extracted from Essential Oils. It is possible to buy a lot f natural aroma chemicals; but be prepared to pay.
    You might wonder how it is that these natural isolates are available at all if they are so expensive that they are impractical to use in commercial scale perfumery - how come anyone makes them? The answer is that there is such a high premium on all-natural flavours (and the amounts used are relatively so small) that there is a good market for them in flavour work: if you are wealthy enough, or evangelical enough, you can take advantage of that in natural perfumery. However it does mean that materials that are not used, or not useful alone, in flavours are simply not available as natural isolates even though there may be a good source.

    Raspberry Ketone is one of several materials extracted from raspberries - ionones (alpha and especially beta) being the other main isolate. These form a tiny fraction of a percent of the weight of a crop of raspberries though: so you can see why they are going to be expensive.

    As an example, synthetic beta ionone is available from one of my suppliers (SAFC) at just over £100 / Kg.
    Natural beta ionone, from the same supplier will set you back more than £1,550 / Kg.
    Both prices are correct at the time of writing, but these things change a lot. Both are on the basis of buying 1Kg for UK delivery and include VAT, but they are not at the same level of purity - the synthetic is 97%, while the natural is 85%
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Just re-read my last post as Chris quoted it. Must apologise for so many typos, not sure what came over me.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    wowza!

    Ya, currently working mostly in the realm of essential oils and 'whole' naturals. Aroma consistency is part of the pull toward aromachems for me, so it's good to hear about the purity difference between natural and synthetic too! I'd imagine the impurities present can be as variable as the crop and terroir being harvested.

    I knew the natural flavor industry played a big part, I guess I never considered the amount of juiceboxes etc one could flavor with the fragrance used for just one candle... probably a lot!

    Curious about the case of Honore des Pres, the 'all-natural' brainchild of Olivia Giacobetti... I'm assuming their using natural isolates... is it safe to assume their profit margins are considerably worse than similar niche houses using synthetics? Certainly they've got decent buying power via connections and economies of scale, but the profit difference still seems huge...

  22. #22

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Great pointers as always Jeroen! Thank you
    By the way, what's the dilution process for an aroma chem in crystal form?

    Happy perfuming !!!

  23. #23

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    You weigh out the amount of solid into a suitable container, then add the right amount of solvent to make the correct dilution. You then stir until the solid dissolves; gentle warming may be necessary. It's a bit like putting a spoon of sugar into your tea.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Thanks a zillion David! I plan on using a pocket size scale though that measures in grams. I hope that should work ok!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    That pocket scale should have good sensitivity, and maybe go down to 0.01g to be really helpful...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  26. #26

    Default Re: Diluting Aldehydes and other Chemicals?

    Many thanks Paul!

Similar Threads

  1. Diluting
    By Shakster007 in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 16th February 2013, 01:30 PM
  2. Diluting with oil
    By Tamlane in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 6th December 2012, 02:46 PM
  3. Diluting Absolutes in oil?
    By SEKHMET in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 5th March 2012, 05:23 PM
  4. Diluting Frankincense
    By BCarter in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 10th December 2011, 04:57 AM
  5. Diluting with oils?
    By ECaruthers in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 6th March 2009, 05:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •