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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Agree totally, I always have my own personal max. bid for an item, but shilling is manipulating the market.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentrich View Post
    Because it's theft plain and simple. Whether that be myself, you, my grandmother, someone buying a gift , or santa claus picking up some last minute christmas gifts. Like I said before it ruins the integrity of an auction. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. Just because things don't directly affect us doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else. Theft in any form is unacceptable.
    You're not going to convince me that I should feel taken in any of my eBay purchases. I don't. If I was willing to pay $10 for an item and paid $9.50 instead of $9.00 due to the fact that a ghost bidder had an insincere bid in earlier than mine @ $9.25, you're right in that I'd paid $.50 more than I would have had the ghost bidder not done what he did. However, I look at it differently. I was willing to go to $10 and getting it $.50 cheaper is a win in my book.

    Like I said, if it bothers you then you should push eBay for better monitoring and/or stiffer deterring consequences for violations. Why does eBay allow for so many retracted bids? That'd seem like a logical place to start. If a bidder wins, then retracts, maybe they should be allowed to do this once, then that IP address is shut down from eBay involvement.

    btw I disagree with your gas analogy. If $4.00 doesn't sit well with me, I simply drive a block or two down the road to another station. If they ALL are at $4.00, it ain't because of rampant shilling.
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    You're not going to convince me that I should feel taken in any of my eBay purchases. I don't. If I was willing to pay $10 for an item and paid $9.50 instead of $9.00 due to the fact that a ghost bidder had an insincere bid in earlier than mine @ $9.25, you're right in that I'd paid $.50 more than I would have had the ghost bidder not done what he did. However, I look at it differently. I was willing to go to $10 and getting it $.50 cheaper is a win in my book.

    Like I said, if it bothers you then you should push eBay for better monitoring and/or stiffer deterring consequences for violations. Why does eBay allow for so many retracted bids? That'd seem like a logical place to start. If a bidder wins, then retracts, maybe they should be allowed to do this once, then that IP address is shut down from eBay involvement.

    btw I disagree with your gas analogy. If $4.00 doesn't sit well with me, I simply drive a block or two down the road to another station. If they ALL are at $4.00, it ain't because of rampant shilling.
    Excellent point! Good luck to you! I understand why you don't agree about the gas analogy since this is your definition of shilling "By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't." Thanks for clearing that point up for me.
    Last edited by silentrich; 4th March 2013 at 08:14 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Most of the stuff is fake on Ebay anyways.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".
    Outrageous prices generated by shill bidding is not what I'm talking about; what if you were to obtain a good (great) price on an item on which, for one reason or another, few other people are bidding? I'm not here to discuss the reasons why nobody else is bidding on this hypothetical auction, so saying something like 'maybe it looked fake' is a facile argument.

    Say you have the winning, or even sole bid, on a $250 bottle for which you're willing to pay up to $175. The auction progresses and it's looking like you're going to nab it for $70. The vendor uses shill bidding to bump the price up to $130, which is still significantly below what you're willing to pay, so while you take it for $45 less than you were willing to pay, you still pay $60 over what you'd have in the absence of any shill bidding.

    Obviously this is a very simplistic (and unrealistically transparent) example, but it's to demonstrate that you can simultaneously get a good deal AND be stung by shill bidding.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Haha. Every time anyone brings this up it always erupts into an argument between those who say shill bidding doesn't matter and those trying to explain in vain why its bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by timdoeswell View Post
    Outrageous prices generated by shill bidding is not what I'm talking about; what if you were to obtain a good (great) price on an item on which, for one reason or another, few other people are bidding? I'm not here to discuss the reasons why nobody else is bidding on this hypothetical auction, so saying something like 'maybe it looked fake' is a facile argument.

    Say you have the winning, or even sole bid, on a $250 bottle for which you're willing to pay up to $175. The auction progresses and it's looking like you're going to nab it for $70. The vendor uses shill bidding to bump the price up to $130, which is still significantly below what you're willing to pay, so while you take it for $45 less than you were willing to pay, you still pay $60 over what you'd have in the absence of any shill bidding.

    Obviously this is a very simplistic (and unrealistically transparent) example, but it's to demonstrate that you can simultaneously get a good deal AND be stung by shill bidding.
    Some people can only think in black and white so they are not going to understand this reasoning. ....."You said you were willing to pay $170 so you should have no problem if a fake bid makes you pay the full amount that you were willing to pay" .......
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I am astonished.

    Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

    However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    I am astonished.

    Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

    However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!
    Yeah, I think you probably need to go back and look at all the rules and regulations you quoted in that other thread or threads and question why you think the rules and regulations (laws) don't apply to this matter. If you think telling a white lie is comparable to taking someone's money under false pretenses (Fraud/Theft) is the same then I got nothing for ya.
    Last edited by silentrich; 4th March 2013 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    I am astonished.

    Some folks have a huge problem with shilling on eBay. Fine, don't use eBay. There are other market places available. If eBay or any other marketplace has lost its integrity with you, don't use it. Noboby is forcing it upon you. eBay will lose your business. For that reason, eBay has a vested interested in policing for shilling. It either does an acceptable or unacceptable job of it. Fine. You be the consumer and let your wallet move to the marketplace that has your confidence. There's no great mystery.

    However... for some of the same folks to have such a 'gripper' regarding shilling on eBay AND to not have any compunctions whatsoever about lying to the local post office each and every time they enter an unlabelled hazardous material into the mail stream... well that's simply too much kettle/pot b.s. for me; I'm outta this thread!
    I suppose you're referring to silentrich's posts over in the "new USPS policies" thread. It's no secret that I disagree with his position there (as our dueling posts attest), but agree with him completely here.

    To me, saying "if you don't like shill bidding don't use Ebay" is kind of silly. 99% of Ebay auctions don't have shills. Besides, shills are absolutely against Ebay's terms of service. I'd say the problem is not with Ebay's official policy, but in the failure to diligently enforce it. And I'd suspect that the failure is more a result of Ebay's pretty pronounced change over the past few years from a primarily-auction site to a primarily-buy-it-now site.

    I'm not going to argue keep arguing economics. Just realize that for some people (like me), the primary problem isn't that the final price is a few bucks more than it would otherwise be; the problem is that the price was reached by the seller's fraudulent conduct. And I do not want to give my money to a seller who sought from the beginning to defraud me.

    But hey, I'm a doofus who won't even lie to the post office!
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by barclaydetolly View Post
    I suppose you're referring to silentrich's posts over in the "new USPS policies" thread. It's no secret that I disagree with his position there (as our dueling posts attest), but agree with him completely here.

    To me, saying "if you don't like shill bidding don't use Ebay" is kind of silly. 99% of Ebay auctions don't have shills. Besides, shills are absolutely against Ebay's terms of service. I'd say the problem is not with Ebay's official policy, but in the failure to diligently enforce it. And I'd suspect that the failure is more a result of Ebay's pretty pronounced change over the past few years from a primarily-auction site to a primarily-buy-it-now site.

    I'm not going to argue keep arguing economics. Just realize that for some people (like me), the primary problem isn't that the final price is a few bucks more than it would otherwise be; the problem is that the price was reached by the seller's fraudulent conduct. And I do not want to give my money to a seller who sought from the beginning to defraud me.

    But hey, I'm a doofus who won't even lie to the post office!
    No way your not even close to being a doofus. This takes the cake. http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...3-2e249c76d509. I don't know which is dumber, the lazy supplier who didn't want to get in his car and drive the 7 pounds of weed to the drug dealers house or Fed Ex giving the drug dealer the woman's address after they knew drugs were in the package.
    Completely agree with your post. Think I'm going to avoid threads with any moral implications involved. So just as a note to myself would be things not to discuss on basenotes: Anything involving sexual identity, number of sprays, anything involving Aventus, the USPS, and now Ebay shilling. I'm sure there's more.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone.
    Wow...
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  12. #42
    Basenotes Junkie Profumo Saggio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    When I buy on ebay I always use Buy it Now and buy from a few trusted sellers with whom I've previously dealt. I haven't bothered with the hassle of auctions in years.
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    First, blanket statements like "90% of fragrances sold on EBAY are fake" are over-generalization. The vast majority are genuine, sold by fellow BN'ers who don't want the stuff anymore, or by "out-of-your-home" small businesses. I have gotten MANY great deals both new and used.
    Second, In his book "Fake: Forgery, Lies, & eBay," Kenneth Walton describes how he and his cohorts placed shill bids on hundreds of eBay auctions over the course of a year. Walton and his associates were charged and convicted of fraud by the United States Attorney for their eBay shill bidding
    I have seen shill bidding work best when 2 people are frantically bidding at the last 5min. The "competitive edge" causes SOME people to bid more than they perhaps would have if they would have thought it through.
    Just because you may be "too smart" to be ripped off on EBAY doesn't make it right. I am too smart to be conned by door-to-door con artists, but the elderly may not be...does that make it right?
    Last edited by Diogenes65; 5th March 2013 at 10:48 AM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    @silentrich - when you've made your list suggest u post it as new thread....
    joking
    Last edited by lpp; 6th March 2013 at 08:30 AM.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    @silentrich - when you've made you list suggest u post it as new thread....
    joking
    Oh my goodness no.......next time I'm going to let someone else light the fuse. I like to keep things simple...Lol....

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