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  1. #1
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I know Ebay really doesn't care if their sellers break the law by shill bidding, but this is ridiculous. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cereus-Pour-...item338042918a, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cereus-Pour-...item33804292ad, http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Cereus-P...item4851f206bb.

    3 different auction with the same bidders and one has over 36 retracted bids in 6 months.

    And here's another one from the same seller with of course the same bidder http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Cereus-P...item4851f2031f
    Last edited by silentrich; 3rd March 2013 at 07:20 PM.

  2. #2
    Basenotes Institution sjg3839's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    It's a shame.

  3. #3
    hednic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    One of the drawbacks of auction sites.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    A. I don't really see what you are demonstrating. The same people are bidding on different sales of the same fragrance? Why wouldn't they? I bid on the same fragrance in different auctions sometimes, trying to get the best deal.

    B. If the buyer only bids the maximum one is willing to pay, and the seller is just trying to bid it up, the seller is less likely to complete a sale, which kinda defeats the purpose of selling.

  5. #5
    Dependent bigsteve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I looked at the links also, and didn't see anything blatant or provable.
    But it goes without saying, anywhere you go there are going to be dirtbags trying to hose others.
    ----- People laugh at me because I'm different.... I laugh at them because they're all the same -----

  6. #6
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by docluv45 View Post
    A. I don't really see what you are demonstrating. The same people are bidding on different sales of the same fragrance? Why wouldn't they? I bid on the same fragrance in different auctions sometimes, trying to get the best deal.

    B. If the buyer only bids the maximum one is willing to pay, and the seller is just trying to bid it up, the seller is less likely to complete a sale, which kinda defeats the purpose of selling.
    It's not the same fragrance. Do a search on Cereus. There's other sellers selling these but these bidders only bid with this particular seller which is what is making it obvious. What makes it more obvious is that they are the exact same 3 bidders and the price is the same on 3 of those 4 auctions. On your point B. Didn't you notice that one of the bidders had 36 retracted bids in 6 months.
    Last edited by silentrich; 3rd March 2013 at 09:34 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    @ silentrich - Well, if someone only ever bids on one seller's listings & doesn't win, or they relist item if they do....
    & be careful with 'private' listings 'cos u can't even check that.
    p.s. They only take action on complaints from people who have been shilled!
    Restrict them to 'BIN'
    Has been a problem in U.K.
    Academic problem here at the moment as we can't ship it!

  8. #8
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    @ silentrich - Well, if someone only ever bids on one seller's listings & doesn't win, or they relist item if they do....
    & be careful with 'private' listings 'cos u can't even check that.
    p.s. They only take action on complaints from people who have been shilled!
    Restrict them to 'BIN'
    Has been a problem in U.K.
    Academic problem here at the moment as we can't ship it!
    Yeah, it's unfortunate and thank you for the warning on the private auctions.
    Last edited by silentrich; 3rd March 2013 at 09:31 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Some are o.k., suggest putting on 'watch' list if really interested,not all are bad.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Why even shop on ebay?
    I hate it.
    You dont even get great(!) deals like people think they do.
    Besides, ebay is an evil company

  11. #11
    Dependent RedRaider430's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I have gotten several great deals on eBay. In fact, in 10 years, I've only had one problematic transaction. I bought a counterfeit CD from someone but got my money back.

    If people weren't getting great deals on eBay, I don't believe they would have lasted and flourished like they have.

    That one bidder with the 36 retracted bids does look suspicious. I didn't even know you could look for such things. Thanks!
    Basenotes sales: By Kilian Straight to Heaven, Heeley Coccobello, Many collectible/discontinued CREEDs (Vintage Tabarome, Citrus Bigarrade, Selection Verte), Bond No. 9 Hamptons, Heeley Oranges & Lemons, L'Essence de Cerruti, Balenciaga Ho Hang Club, Reyane Insurrection, numerous popular SAMPLES! http://www.basenotes.net/threads/340...ciaga-SAMPLES!

    Offsite sales: By Kilian Straight to Heaven, Heeley Coccobello, Vintage Tabarome, Selection Verte, Citrus Bigarrade), Tom Ford Noir de Noir, By Kilian Prelude to Love, Bond No. 9 Hamptons, Heeley Oranges & Lemons, L'Essence de Cerruti, Balenciaga Ho Hang Club, Reyane Insurrection, numerous popular SAMPLES! http://flacon.ambaric.net/viewtopic.php?t=260 and http://flacon.ambaric.net/viewtopic.php?t=626

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone. Regardless of how the price is derived, it is still up to the consumer on whether he or she wants to buy it. If the shill price is cheaper than average, it's a better deal. If it's more expensive, no rational person is going to buy it anyway.

    Person A starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed $50 and shill bids it up to $150.
    Person B starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed for $175.

    With the same logic, why don't we ban Person B from eBay for being a gouger too?

  13. #13
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    Shill bidding doesn't actually hurt anyone. Regardless of how the price is derived, it is still up to the consumer on whether he or she wants to buy it. If the shill price is cheaper than average, it's a better deal. If it's more expensive, no rational person is going to buy it anyway.

    Person A starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed $50 and shill bids it up to $150.
    Person B starts a bid of Green Irish Tweed for $175.

    With the same logic, why don't we ban Person B from eBay for being a gouger too?
    Couldn't disagree with you more and shilling is illegal. It destroys the integrity of the auction system.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    My love/hate for EBAY...I have gotten great deals...and have gotten fakes. I bet 1/2 the juice I sell on EBAY the first buyer never pays, and I have to go through the hassle of relisting and getting a refund on the fees. I also have seen people bid up one particular sellers merchandise and somehow NEVER win an auction. There are no consequences on EBAY so people cheat. I just got a A*Man Fake from a seller in El Salvador...what a nightmare...she refuses to pay my return shipping...and it is a blatant fake!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I never said shilling was permitted by the website's rules.

    Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.

  16. #16
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    I never said shilling was permitted by the website's rules.

    Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.
    Do you like paying $4.00 a gallon for gas? How's that for how shilling can affect a rational customer.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    Please tell me how it's of any consequential difference to a rational consumer.
    Because it's creating a false demand.

    The rational consumer could expect to be bound by the concepts and rules pertaining to supply and demand, and if the seller has started an item at a low price (which could be expected to stimulate demand in itself) but proceeds to use shill bidding to artificially inflate the price (irrespective of whether other genuine bidders would have driven the price up themselves*) the rational consumer could view the vendor as manipulating the auction for their own personal benefit.

    *In such instances it's important to not speculate on what the market would have done in the absence of this artificial demand.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post
    People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.
    I don't know if I'd go quite that far - in cases of shill bidding (which are already difficult to prove) it's hard to differentiate between:

    1) what a buyer would pay for the fragrance (ie: what they're willing to pay); and
    2) what a buyer would have paid for the fragrance without the shill bidding having had occurred.

    It's certainly a LOT easier to quantify the first (you just need to ask the bidder), and nigh on impossible to quantify the second.

    Shill bidding is concerned with the second issue, and I think many people get the issue clouded with the first.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Shill bidding is why I don't use ebay.

    Puck that. I'll either Buy It Now or pay retail but I won't go into a bid war because I never loose but don't want to overpay.
    for swap/sale:



  21. #21
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    All goes back to ethics in the end

  22. #22

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I just bid in the last seconds. Don't care what happens before that, or after (if I get outbid).

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by timdoeswell View Post
    Because it's creating a false demand.

    The rational consumer could expect to be bound by the concepts and rules pertaining to supply and demand, and if the seller has started an item at a low price (which could be expected to stimulate demand in itself) but proceeds to use shill bidding to artificially inflate the price (irrespective of whether other genuine bidders would have driven the price up themselves*) the rational consumer could view the vendor as manipulating the auction for their own personal benefit.

    *In such instances it's important to not speculate on what the market would have done in the absence of this artificial demand.
    Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".

  24. #24

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post
    People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.
    Couldn't agree more...BTW LOVE YOUR AVITAR...Go Ravens!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post
    People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.
    Namecalling and ad hominem attacks are often a last resort for people who aren't able to other wise defend their viewpoint.

  26. #26
    Dependent LloydLlewellyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grifter View Post
    People who think shill bidding is o.k is obv brain-dead.
    People who think other people's opinions are brain-dead are obv brain-dead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rüssel View Post
    I just bid in the last seconds. Don't care what happens before that, or after (if I get outbid).
    Yeah, that's my M.O. as well, and I mentally set a price limit that I am not going to surpass.
    Kurt smells like Teen Spirit

  27. #27
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by noirdrakkar View Post
    Having an outrageously high price does not increase demand for anything. Any rational consumer would roll their eyes and think "there are people selling it for cheaper on here".
    Define rational consumer. I take it your leaving out people who don't know a lot about fragrances, people buying gifts, and elderly customers who might not know any better. So what your saying is it's acceptable for those people to get ripped off? Better yet have you ever been ripped off? Wow. That's harsh. Lol... Blame it on the uninformed or less knowledgeable and not the thief.
    Last edited by silentrich; 4th March 2013 at 04:37 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    I've used eBay over 200 times to buy fragrance. I've never used it to sell anything.

    The shilling behavior you identified would never had affected any of my purchases. I simply come to a price I'm comfortable paying and enter it into a auto-bidder snipe mechanism that enters my bidding in the last few seconds. If I am the highest bidder, so be it. If I 'win' it at a price less than what I was willing to go, g-r-e-a-t! If I don't win it, so be it. By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't. For those who do not have their own idea as to what they're willing to pay for an item... well, I guess enough will rely on what they see in the form of other bids. This is not how I operate as a buyer on eBay. Again, I know what price I'm willing to pay. That is the only aspect that enters into my bidding. What other bidders come up with, whether sincere or insincere, is of no consequence to my bidding behavior.

    I, too, am a little curious as to why this bothers the OP. Sure, it's against the rules; if that aspect bothers you enough, then report it. Wondering why the seller(s) just don't use a reserve if they wish to protect against one of their items going too cheap.
    Simplex Sigillum Veri

  29. #29
    silentrich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    I've used eBay over 200 times to buy fragrance. I've never used it to sell anything.

    The shilling behavior you identified would never had affected any of my purchases. I simply come to a price I'm comfortable paying and enter it into a auto-bidder snipe mechanism that enters my bidding in the last few seconds. If I am the highest bidder, so be it. If I 'win' it at a price less than what I was willing to go, g-r-e-a-t! If I don't win it, so be it. By definition, shilling is an action designed to dupe people into believing there is a demand for something when there actually isn't. For those who do not have their own idea as to what they're willing to pay for an item... well, I guess enough will rely on what they see in the form of other bids. This is not how I operate as a buyer on eBay. Again, I know what price I'm willing to pay. That is the only aspect that enters into my bidding. What other bidders come up with, whether sincere or insincere, is of no consequence to my bidding behavior.

    I, too, am a little curious as to why this bothers the OP. Sure, it's against the rules; if that aspect bothers you enough, then report it. Wondering why the seller(s) just don't use a reserve if they wish to protect against one of their items going too cheap.
    Because it's theft plain and simple. Whether that be myself, you, my grandmother, someone buying a gift , or santa claus picking up some last minute christmas gifts. Like I said before it ruins the integrity of an auction. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. Just because things don't directly affect us doesn't mean it doesn't affect someone else. Theft in any form is unacceptable.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Most obvious display of shill bidding I've seen on Ebay.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentrich View Post
    Define rational consumer. I take it your leaving out people who don't know a lot about fragrances, people buying gifts, and elderly customers who might not know any better. So what your saying is it's acceptable for those people to get ripped off? Better yet have you ever been ripped off? Wow. That's harsh. Lol... Blame it on the uninformed or less knowledgeable and not the thief.
    Rich is right. If a seller wants to sell at a predetermined price, the seller has an option: buy it now.

    Otherwise, sellers should play by the rules. An auction is an auction. Shill bidding creates an artificial price point -- a FRAUDULENT artificial price point. Sure, the ultimate buyer pays the top dollar that he or she wanted to pay, but more than the "market price." And that means the buyer can't buy other things that he or she would have bought.

    And even if it's marginally less objectionable for a luxury good, what about the people that use Ebay to buy used clothes, or everday items that are just a bit cheaper than they are at the store?

    Fraud is fraud. That's why shill bidding is a clear a violation of Ebay's TOS.

    I still like Ebay, but no longer love it because of this type of behavior.
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