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  1. #31

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    That is an eye-opener.

    I once seen a person holding up a basketball jersey that was for sale in a sporting goods store in a mall.
    Retail Price: $135
    Cost to manufacture: $0.35

    Similar gouging goes on for Nike's and other running shoes.
    ... and designer clothes made in China.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    always remember that famous blind test: supermarket perfume better than Chanel...

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ic-219006.html

  3. #33
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielPlainview View Post
    What about the price of a Louis Vuitton bag, or Haute Couture dresses, or fancy shoes, or armani suits or Patek Philippe watches or other items of luxury? These are also rip offs in your definition. There is a high premium price for items of luxury in general. All these items cost a fraction of their selling prices.
    Indeed. I didn't say it was the only massive rip off. I think there is a belief though, especially among those who listen to Olivier Creed that the ingredients cost a massive amount of money, a fallacy which people don't have about the raw materials of handbags etc.
    Regarding Louis Vuitton, the companies attitude disgusts me. I spent some time in Hong Kong and the Vuitton shops there would not sell to people if they didn't look like they had money.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    There was an item in the Channel 4 programme 'Superscrimpers' here last night, much of which I didn't really watch, where recognised scents & chain store own brand cheapos were compared - firstly by an expert, secondly by blind tests on the public.
    The Aldi one came out as the best value, maybe, with an M & S one tying with a D & G one.
    Or similar.

    Support for your theory, David
    l watched that programme, & it was interesting. However, l think most of us are fully aware that we are paying for the name & a degree of exclusivity when we buy an expensive fragrance. Be honest, would you buy a fragrance from Lidl if you could afford a Chanel? l wouldn't.
    "What is this secret connection between the soul, and sea, clouds and perfumes? The soul itself appears to be sea, cloud and perfume..." - from Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis.

  5. #35

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by martinijo View Post
    Regarding Louis Vuitton, the companies attitude disgusts me. I spent some time in Hong Kong and the Vuitton shops there would not sell to people if they didn't look like they had money.
    Oh no - they'll sell to anyone who has money. Of course if you wander into the stores and don't 'look' like you have money you will just get a chilly attitude until you pull out the wallet. The rules are pretty clear on that one

    Like many big name retail brands they are quite used to mainlanders traipsing in dragging bags on wheels behind them ready to be loaded up and trundled back across the border to sell for a healthy mark up - capitalism is alive and well in the motherland.
    Last edited by mr. reasonable; 20th March 2013 at 10:24 AM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post
    Oh no - they'll sell to anyone who has money. Of course if you wander into the stores and don't 'look' like you have money you will just get a chilly attitude until you pull out the wallet. The rules are pretty clear on that one

    Like many big name retail brands they are quite used to mainlanders traipsing in dragging bags on wheels behind them ready to be loaded up and trundled back across the border to sell for a healthy mark up - capitalism is alive and well in the motherland.
    Actually I was speaking from personal experience and no, they would not sell to just anyone who pulled out a wad of cash.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    @ teardrop - personally, never been in a Lidl, but as a mainstream broadcast I thought that it was a good shot and it wasn't targeting B/n members.
    And label is not all imo, despite my attachment to certain attars, I am always happy to experiment

    Thanks to all concerned.
    Last edited by lpp; 20th March 2013 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #38

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    You saw this? Quel horreur! I walk past one of the flagships every day and it's busting with dodgy looking characters - LV is a bit of a joke amongst most people here, don't let it get to you

  9. #39
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post
    You saw this? Quel horreur! I walk past one of the flagships every day and it's busting with dodgy looking characters - LV is a bit of a joke amongst most people here, don't let it get to you
    It's 16 years since I was there so things may well have changed.
    I should probably mention that there was a bit of a racket at the time where people would buy LV stuff there then sell it in Japan at a profit, but so what? I never liked the stuff anyway...

  10. #40

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    thanx david, wonderful job!
    Currently wearing: Red Vetyver by Montale

  11. #41

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielPlainview View Post
    I see your point. But it is more complicated than that. Without the famous stars, perfumes wouldn't sell so much and there wouldn't be economies of scale. In the case of Niche fragrances, most of the price is composed of overhead and profit for the different players in the chain, who are not replaceable or disposable. You pay not only for the juice, but also for all the other things that work around it.

    If you want to live in a world where the price of perfumes is just the sum of the price for the juice plus the profit for the artist, we would have to go back to 16th century europe, where each artisan or perfumer personally sold his perfumes to his clients. You would then buy perfumes at little stores or at fairs. Production volumes would be minimal for each artisan.

    But we now live in an overpopulated world where almost everything is done for the masses. We can't go back to "paying just for the juice".

    The only valid argument you can make is that the profits are too high for such a cheap product. But I won't get into this.
    This is quite true and sensible. If perfumes were really sold at their cost of manufacturing, would there be such a wide range of perfumes for us to buy? Really, I don't think so. There'll be rather little incentive for companies to go about creating new perfumes.

    Still, if we dislike the idea of a big part of a perfume's price to go to things like marketing and celebrity endorsement fees, then we should support the genuine niche houses where other costs make up such a big part of the price.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    @Andrč Moreau - thanks for that link.

    & agree with Maque re. 'niche' - as they used to say here 'You pays your money & you takes your choice'....
    Last edited by lpp; 20th March 2013 at 01:46 PM.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    I was fortunate to meet a woman who worked in the fragrance industry back in the 80s (she sold me a rare test edition bottle of KL Homme), and this is one of the things she told me: “I worked in the fragrance department at Arden. I always loved this perfume [KL Homme]. This oil was very expensive for the company to buy. It was nearly $100/lb. Most of the fine fragrances today are very cheap, without the expensive natural raw materials, around $10/lb.”
    Thanks. Makes me appreciate my two bottles of KL Homme even more.
    Cheers,
    Renato

  14. #44
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielPlainview View Post
    What about the price of a Louis Vuitton bag, or Haute Couture dresses, or fancy shoes, or armani suits or Patek Philippe watches or other items of luxury? These are also rip offs in your definition. There is a high premium price for items of luxury in general. All these items cost a fraction of their selling prices.

    This same kind of topic was discussed in the female forum under most natural smelling perfume:-) i started the thread, moderators closed it for unknown reason to me:-) .....but there are people from the industry who say exactly this: its irrelevant what perfume is made of , most important is :is it good or bad.....
    So if you agree with them then no reason to question those prices, because synthetics are dirty cheap!! If they use naturals this could no way cost this cheap....so read the thread if you want to know more:-)

    But i wanted to add about watches? Do you know how much material it takes to make a watch and how many working hours? The most expencive watch is beeing made and then broken to parts 2- 3 times and they can make only 50 pieces of them per year:-) ......
    In jewelry too...yes you pay for luxury more then its worth in material....but the profit margin is not 10 000%......still even reading this will not prevent masses from buying perfume synthetics.....people also eat junk, if you offer them some naturals they may not even like it:-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rüssel View Post
    Further proof that perfume is art
    “Art is making something out of nothing and selling it.” --Frank Zappa

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.fragrantica.com/news/An-I...inya-4172.html


    Also whenever a perfumer can substitute a real thing by much cheaper thing he will do it:-) , meaning they will spend money only if the balance of perfume falls apart, and not to maximise the beauty:-) this goes on for many niche houses that are now the size of designers....amouage...chanle exclusifs etc:-)

  15. #45
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    U a Zappa fan too

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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    @lpp lol:-) , i just found it very true and fits good here

    I just saw to confirm my thesis that each sense contains in itself other sense too, a film where people who are completely blind use their tongue to observe shapes and object in the world through of course some scientific special devices....hence if we can taste synthetics, or low quality food we can smell them as well

  17. #47

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    There are other industries where they make as much profit as in the perfume industry. For example the fireworks industry. If a fragrance satisfies me, makes me feel good, and I have the money for it, I will buy it. It's that simple. If it is so easy and cheap to release new fragrances, then why are the big companies playing it safe, releasing a ton of flankers on existing names?l'Homme, La Nuit de l'Homme, l'Homme Libre, Frozen Cologne,... If it is so easy and cheap to release new fragrances, then why are the big companies copying each other with the Sport fragrances? Most of the current offering is either a 1 Million clone, or a microvariation on a lemon or a woody aquatic. Those companies are either extremely greedy or they think we are idiots. Or the article is not entirely true, misinformation happens all the time in the current media.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Yes noone should care if you are happy with it:-) , also we can talk about what we smell and think regardless of your happiness:-)

    It is cheap to release 10 variations of the same thing...why bothering with something else if you are on the budget???

    Yes i think we are idiots paying such prices for synthetics:-)

    - - - Updated - - -

    perfumes can not be seen, they can not be status symbol as watches, jewelry , cars are..you can only smell them, so in a way i compare them with high quality food, something special to enjoy...nowdays i can enjoy air freshener as well...

    But yeah if you need it branded....why not to pay for it:-)

    Just if you want to find something really good money wont do the trick:-) , so its good to know some facts about this industry too:-)

  19. #49
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    I'm very grateful for the article, David, it looks wonderful. Haven't sat down with it to digest it yet. My initial inclination is to look at it on a "cost per wear" basis. From that perspective, wearing even the most expensive perfume is practically costless. It's one of the most affordable hobbies I can think of. Compare it to playing a round of golf, or going out drinking, or going to the movies, or heating your hot tub, or insuring your Porsche. There's no comparison.

    You also have to look at it from the producer and retailer's point of view. Even if you really like a bottle of perfume, you're not likely to go in and see the retailer more than once a year. So he's got to sit there all year waiting for you to show up for the next bottle. Meanwhile, the guy who sells you coffee sees you at least five days a week. The coffee guy is turning his inventory at an incredibly high rate, and the perfume maker is growing old waiting for you to run out and come back. The perfume sellers have to pay for their real estate and air conditioning and security too, even though they have much slower-turning inventory. Same for jewelers. Same for prescription eyeglass places. Ever wonder why an eyeglass frame that costs six bucks to make retails for hundreds of dollars?

    Compare perfume to a daily Starbucks habit. Now, folks, tell me, what's expensive?
    Currently wearing: Agar Attar by Agar Aura

  20. #50

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Paint and canvas is cheap too. I can't understand why they lock up the Louvre at night.

    Interesting read though.

  21. #51
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Lots of people are comparing perfume to art. While I would agree with that, I think there is a huge difference between a limited edition, (1000 pieces) and a niche/designer fragrance which is clearly mass produced.
    To me, prices with huge mark ups are acceptable for rare discontinued perfumes and limited editions, but not for mass produced fragrances.
    I may be wrong here, but a reasonable quality print of the Mona Lisa probably costs around €5 to produce and sells for €20. This is still a healthy profit margin.
    Last edited by david; 23rd March 2013 at 10:27 PM.
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  22. #52
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Good point.
    Art alone is not enough to justify the cost of mass market productions.
    But it's a cash cow, like many other things.
    Artisan, on the other hand, deserves support imo.
    Last edited by lpp; 24th March 2013 at 08:41 AM.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozjon701 View Post
    Paint and canvas is cheap too. I can't understand why they lock up the Louvre at night.

    Interesting read though.
    Comparing a mass produced bottle of fragrance to a work of art in the Louvre is ludicrous.

    Interesting read though.
    RARE PERFUME DECANTS - FACEBOOK (closed group) - Hundreds of ultra rare extraits available, including Djedi and Nombre Noir.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    Comparing a mass produced bottle of fragrance to a work of art in the Louvre is ludicrous.

    Interesting read though.

    You're not kidding.

  25. #55

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    Comparing a mass produced bottle of fragrance to a work of art in the Louvre is ludicrous.

    Interesting read though.
    Yeah ok massive stretch there. Still like many comparable products, clothes with a desirable label or expensive wine, it is no surprise that consumers are paying for massive markups, marketing and administrative costs. The majority of raw materials used are dirt cheap, and those that aren't the quantities used in your bottle of ABC are so minuscule that it hardly accounts for much.

    It is whether you think the artist merit of such products justifies the price. There obviously are enough people who think that $100 bottle of mall fragrance does tick the box. Whatever the market will bear I guess.

    And no sarcasm was intended, it was an interesting read.

  26. #56
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Well, David, I read the whole thing and I realized I've been reading that article for twenty five years. Every so often, some young, eager, enterprising reporter discovers the idea of profit margin and writes up a story about how much of a scam anything with a profit margin is. And, by the way, the business just stays the same as it ever was and nothing ever changes. A number of the replies here point to very similar situations - couture (dresses are just made of fabric!), computers (sand!), lipstick (hey! there's rust in there!) Looking at commerce this way, the world would seem to take on this appearance of a corrupt place full of scams. 60 Minutes just ran a story about the impliedly evil empire at Luxottica. It was a joke of a report, in my view.

    The fragrance business is quite small, in the scheme of things and, like I said, it's an item that is infrequently purchased. It's more like the spice business (high value to weight, infrequently purchased) than it is the coffee business (commoditized, low value to weight, low value to physical volume). So you can store, say, two years worth of fragrance more easily than you can store two years worth of coffee. Still, you have to pay people for their time. You have to pay people to devote their energies to being available for your once-a-year purchase, whenever you decide that may be.

    If you bought all of your coffee for the next year on December 31st, coffee would seem expensive, too.

    I'm grateful for the diligently-assembled margin breakdown in the article but, really like all of the other articles I've read when a young reporter uncovers the "dirty little secret" of someone actually making a profit doing something - and not one of the actors involved seemed to be making outsized margins - the article looks, in my view, more naive than anything else.

    Put it this way. 7-11 sells a million cups of coffee per day. Chanel sells 2,880 bottles of No. 5 per day, or less than one half of one percent of 7-11's coffee business. Chanel, and everyone else in the fragrance business, has to make up for this astonishingly low volume by making more margin per bottle. Without that margin, no one could make a living as a perfume supplier and we wouldn't have perfume.
    Currently wearing: Agar Attar by Agar Aura

  27. #57
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    @ Wheatsraw2 - Thank you for an interesting and insightful perspective, one perhaps more applicable to the non-addicted scent-buyer - admittedly as was the article.

    However, it is more than likely that my annual scent bill somewhat dwarfs my annual coffee (or even vets') biils - and I have a modest collection by B/n standards (although many of these are absent from the Directory due to limited production rather than site issues).

    The choice is for each individual to make and discussing it may help us to choose wisely, even if that is on subsequent reflection.

  28. #58

    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Interesting read.
    Is the juice worth the squeeze?

  29. #59
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    ......still even reading this will not prevent masses from buying perfume synthetics.....people also eat junk, if you offer them some naturals they may not even like it:-)


    This is so true. I believe that they have probably have not been exposed to the difference between natural and synthetics almost to the point of being conditioned by media and advertising as to what is a "nice" scent. After wearing mostly naturals for a bit, there is something in my brain that picks as irritating when I wear synthetics now. I took some high qaulity oud oil mixes over to a buddies and had him check them out and he said "these smell like medicine, ughhh", and went to his stash and pulled out a bottle of Iso-e based cologne and said "This is what the ladies dig, here smell". And proceeded to pull the cap off and the synthetic smell hit me and I said "ughhh, uuu, that smells good!" and in my head was thinking, how could anyone wear that for hours? The funny thing is that I used to wear synthetics for hours before I realized there was a lot better.

    As for the profits, as a consumer it sucks, but as a businessman I am jealous and would not mind tapping in to that a bit!

    "This theme has come up before and (perhaps ?) some members would rather not believe it. It does rather shatter the myth surrounding a $200+ Creed or niche juice."

    There is no way that profit breakdown can apply to any fragrance that uses natural essential oils.
    Last edited by edward t; 24th March 2013 at 01:58 PM.

  30. #60
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    Default Re: "The price of a regular coffee. Yep, not even a cuppucino."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozjon701 View Post
    Yeah ok massive stretch there. Still like many comparable products, clothes with a desirable label or expensive wine, it is no surprise that consumers are paying for massive markups, marketing and administrative costs. The majority of raw materials used are dirt cheap, and those that aren't the quantities used in your bottle of ABC are so minuscule that it hardly accounts for much.

    It is whether you think the artist merit of such products justifies the price. There obviously are enough people who think that $100 bottle of mall fragrance does tick the box. Whatever the market will bear I guess.

    And no sarcasm was intended, it was an interesting read.
    Thanks for your post, and I apologise if I reacted a bit abruptly/harshly.
    I do agree with you entirely about the massive mark ups in other fields. Addidas pays local vietnamese workers $0.50 for a 12 hour day's work and sells the finished product for maybe €60 ~ €160.
    I don't think it is morally right, this trend toward global "slave labour".
    As far as fragrances go, I very rarely pay the retail price for a perfume that is in production. I am fortunate enough to have colleagues and friends in the industry and am able to get 90 percent of my fragrances in the form of testers.
    I am a huge fan and collector of discontinued fragrances. In this field I am more than willing to pay the supply and demand price, according to rarity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheatstraw2 View Post
    Well, David, I read the whole thing and I realized I've been reading that article for twenty five years. Every so often, some young, eager, enterprising reporter discovers the idea of profit margin and writes up a story about how much of a scam anything with a profit margin is. And, by the way, the business just stays the same as it ever was and nothing ever changes. A number of the replies here point to very similar situations - couture (dresses are just made of fabric!), computers (sand!), lipstick (hey! there's rust in there!) Looking at commerce this way, the world would seem to take on this appearance of a corrupt place full of scams. 60 Minutes just ran a story about the impliedly evil empire at Luxottica. It was a joke of a report, in my view.

    The fragrance business is quite small, in the scheme of things and, like I said, it's an item that is infrequently purchased. It's more like the spice business (high value to weight, infrequently purchased) than it is the coffee business (commoditized, low value to weight, low value to physical volume). So you can store, say, two years worth of fragrance more easily than you can store two years worth of coffee. Still, you have to pay people for their time. You have to pay people to devote their energies to being available for your once-a-year purchase, whenever you decide that may be.

    If you bought all of your coffee for the next year on December 31st, coffee would seem expensive, too.

    I'm grateful for the diligently-assembled margin breakdown in the article but, really like all of the other articles I've read when a young reporter uncovers the "dirty little secret" of someone actually making a profit doing something - and not one of the actors involved seemed to be making outsized margins - the article looks, in my view, more naive than anything else.

    Put it this way. 7-11 sells a million cups of coffee per day. Chanel sells 2,880 bottles of No. 5 per day, or less than one half of one percent of 7-11's coffee business. Chanel, and everyone else in the fragrance business, has to make up for this astonishingly low volume by making more margin per bottle. Without that margin, no one could make a living as a perfume supplier and we wouldn't have perfume.
    Thanks for your post.
    Actually, the mark up on a cup of coffee is just as extreme as the mark up on a bottle of fragrance, The amount of grains required for one cup is probably less than half a cent, and the cup is sold for $2.50 (?). The poor peasant working his arse off, growing the raw material gets practically nothing. All the profit goes to the likes of Starbucks.
    Sorry, but I can't agrree with you on the issue of the fragrance business being small. The averege consumer, (not the likes of us !) probably buys only 1 or 2 bottles per year, but it's still a huge global business with billions of yearly customers.
    Trust me.....Chanel, (LVMH) are making OBSCENE profits !

    ......and as for the smaller guys like Perlier, selling their fragrances on a much smaller scale and for a retail price of $10......they're still making very healthy profits. If the whole of the fragrance industry, (including Chanel/LVMH) sold their fragrances for a retail price of $10 ~ profits would still be enormous and the fragrance industry would most certainly not collapse.
    Last edited by david; 24th March 2013 at 03:46 PM.
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