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  1. #1

    Default Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Hi

    i am sorry if this has been asked elsewhere but is there a difference between fragrance oils that can be used for making perfume and those oils used in soaps etc. Can oils used for fragrances in soaps etc be used for perfumes.

    Ed

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Your title post refers to Food Grade Oils, but your questions do not.

    To your actually posted question:
    There should not be any difference between those fragrance oils used for making Perfumes or soaps.

    Food Grade is a whole different matter.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    I thought so myself but it was how it was explained to me by the sales person who sells the fragrances for soaps etc, she was of the opinion they cannot be used for perfume and only food grade fragrances could be used in perfume making.

    Maybe the question I need to ask is are the fragrance ingredients that should not be used in perfume making.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    You should conduct your research with the help of a great tool, The Perfumer's Search Page:

    http://www.perfumersearch.com/

    If you type in the default field, you will search the Largest Free Scents Database that we have available to us...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by one44 View Post
    Hi

    i am sorry if this has been asked elsewhere but is there a difference between fragrance oils that can be used for making perfume and those oils used in soaps etc. Can oils used for fragrances in soaps etc be used for perfumes.

    Ed
    Yes, but no . . .

    Some perfumery materials don't survive the saponification process or are likely to deteriorate in the highly alkaline environment of a soap, sometimes resulting in off-smells, sometimes discolouration, sometimes other problems. Many soapers buy read-made fragrance oils containing ingredients that don't have those problems. These may or may not be suitable for other uses but are designed to be effective in soap. Most will dissolve happily in ethanol and could thus be used in a perfume if you wanted, but would likely smell quite different in that medium and might not perform very well: the requirements of a perfume spray are different from those of a soap.

    Fragrance oils are not food grade: for that you need flavourings, which is a whole different discipline, albeit related. It is absolutely not the case that only food grade fragrances can be used in perfuming: sales assistants often make claims well beyond their pay-grade in my experience and this appears to be a case in point. Many things that are safe to put on your skin are not safe to eat and things you can safely eat may cause irritation or worse if sprayed on your skin.

    The design of fragrance for functional products is a huge subject that most of us here are not expert in, though I believe David has extensive experience of this type of perfumery.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
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    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    First of all; the fragrances that go into soaps are Perfumes, Perfumes that have been designed to work in Soap. As Chris has mentioned soap behaves in a different way to ethanol, and the fragrance used has to be stable. No matter what use you make of a fragrance you should ask yourself what do you want the fragrance to do, and when during the use of the product do you want the fragrance to work.

    Also, as Chris mentioned, there are some fragrance materials that are not stable in Soap (although modern soaps seem less harsh), and should not be used.

    Food grade materials are, in general, not suitable for Perfumery. They are often water based, or contain Propylene Glycol. These two solvents will cause problems. There are some materials used in Flavours that have been banned for use in Perfumery (and vice versa).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    First of all; the fragrances that go into soaps are Perfumes, Perfumes that have been designed to work in Soap. As Chris has mentioned soap behaves in a different way to ethanol, and the fragrance used has to be stable. No matter what use you make of a fragrance you should ask yourself what do you want the fragrance to do, and when during the use of the product do you want the fragrance to work.

    Also, as Chris mentioned, there are some fragrance materials that are not stable in Soap (although modern soaps seem less harsh), and should not be used.

    Food grade materials are, in general, not suitable for Perfumery. They are often water based, or contain Propylene Glycol. These two solvents will cause problems. There are some materials used in Flavours that have been banned for use in Perfumery (and vice versa).
    Thank you for all the quick and very helpful responses. It is clear that experimentation and testing is required.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Hot process soap is often much kinder to perfumes than cold process soap because the saponification has been completed before the perfume is added. The same goes for melt and pour soap and milled soap. The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is that some essential oils can cause discoloration or ceasing of the soap. The latter is less of a problem with transparent soap because the alcohol that's used dissolves the soap.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by one44 View Post
    Hi

    i am sorry if this has been asked elsewhere but is there a difference between fragrance oils that can be used for making perfume and those oils used in soaps etc. Can oils used for fragrances in soaps etc be used for perfumes.

    Ed
    Try DoTerra.

    The products are all antural and majority of them you can ingest.

    You can only buy the products using an IPC number, try 838890

    It is a US based company and growing fast in California.

    The prices are a little higher but top quality.

    If you pay a one time fee of $10 to become a preferred customer you get a discounted price every time.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Thank you for joining to share that, although the O.P. may well have found a supplier by now.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    The only thing that is going to happen when you add perfume or food grade oils to soap is that it may or may not speed up trace, which means you have to work quicker. PG is not bad in soaps, in fact when i make a melt and pour base, that is one of my solvents. Food grade oils would not be my first choice, if you are thinking of something like orange just because the scent might get taken over with the oils because of the weaker concentration. You are better off using essential oils or fragrances. Honestly most, if not all unless otherwise stated can be used in soaps. The only thing you need to worry about is if it says not safe for skin. If it says that, obviously you do not want to bathe with it.

    Other than that, if you are buying fragrances such as ones from indigofragrance or some off etsy, ask them what they use as the carrier oil. You can get a better idea of how quickly it is going to set up. Most fragrances do not speed it up and I stick to CP anyway because they always seem to look better. HP is more of an "artisan" look. The only fragrance, no matter who you get it from, that seems to speed up trace is coconut. For some reason it makes soap batter into quickcrete very fast.

    Hope that helps.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    First of all; the fragrances that go into soaps are Perfumes, Perfumes that have been designed to work in Soap. As Chris has mentioned soap behaves in a different way to ethanol, and the fragrance used has to be stable. No matter what use you make of a fragrance you should ask yourself what do you want the fragrance to do, and when during the use of the product do you want the fragrance to work.

    Also, as Chris mentioned, there are some fragrance materials that are not stable in Soap (although modern soaps seem less harsh), and should not be used.

    Food grade materials are, in general, not suitable for Perfumery. They are often water based, or contain Propylene Glycol. These two solvents will cause problems. There are some materials used in Flavours that have been banned for use in Perfumery (and vice versa).
    Thank you David and Chris for delivering, as always, such useful information! I find this topic very interesting, as I have always erroneously assumed that "if you can eat it, you can safely wear it on your skin".

    I have used flavours (diluted to 20% in ethanol) to substitute the more problematic notes (such as almond, lime, cinnamon) and thought I had found a way of dodging the problem.

    Do you know if there is a list of those flavours banned for use in perfumery? Or books/reads on the topic? I would love to learn more about it.

    By the way, after finding a thread here on the potential dangers of almond oil (and the possibility it might contain traces of Hydrocyanic acid) I contacted Dr. Oetker Germany, a big player in the market of backing aromas in Europe (I mean the small glass vials with an aromatic oil you mix with 500 g of flour). I freaked out since I had made and profusely used a perfume with bitter almond aroma at high concentration.
    I asked them if their bitter-almond aroma contains only Benzaldehyde or perhaps tiny trace amounts of Hydrocyanic acid. You would assume the answer is "NO!", but I wasn't giving it for granted since in Italy for example (at least some 15 years ago) bakers -certified bakers only- had access to bitter almonds to use in minimal amounts in their pastry.
    Well, the first answer was "That's not the intended use for our flavours, we discourage any use other than the one it is meant for", -very obvious and useless answer. I replied asking if there were even minimal, trace amounts of Hydrocyanic acid and still didn't get an answer (it was 2 days ago).
    Eager to see what they reply this time...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    I'm sure that such a list exists, but have no idea where to find it. Sorry. Good Scents company lists "use" , they may have some info.

  14. #14

    Thumbs up Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I'm sure that such a list exists, but have no idea where to find it. Sorry. Good Scents company lists "use" , they may have some info.
    Thank you David, that's already a very good starting point.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaphowell View Post
    Try DoTerra.

    The products are all antural and majority of them you can ingest.

    You can only buy the products using an IPC number, try 838890

    It is a US based company and growing fast in California.

    The prices are a little higher but top quality.

    If you pay a one time fee of $10 to become a preferred customer you get a discounted price every time.
    Dear @aaphowell,

    With all due respect, I would discourage anyone from ingesting neat essential oils, even DoTerra's. I offer this link of serious injuries reported from doing just that.
    http://aromatherapyunited.org/injury-reports/.


    Note also that many essential oils have a FEMA (GRAS) number (meaning generally recognized as safe for consumption), but there are a few things to keep in mind:

    1) The usage of essential oils in flavors is usually 1-5% which is then used at <1% in a finished food or beverage, meaning the oil is more or less 1-5 ppm when consumed.

    2) The essential oil may have a FEMA GRAS number, but it doesn't mean it is Food Grade from any vendor. This grade essential oil MUST be made under specific guidelines (processes and packaging), which can only be determined by directly asking the supplier for proof that their oil is food grade. They should be able to provide this document readily if so.

    On another note, the IFRA guidelines should be a good place to start to see what ingredients are prohibited for use in fragrances. Is that what you were looking for? (www.ifraorg.org)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Fragrance use and Flavour use are not the same thing. There is some cross over but a lot of ingredients are good for use in Fragrances but not in Flavours, and vice versa.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Great point David.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Food grade essential oils and oils for soaps etc.

    Just for the record, Dr. Oetker, the company that sells backing aromas/flavours, got back to me and wrote that their bitter-almond vials (meant for baking) contain only benzaldehyde and sunflower oil.

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