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  1. #1
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Lexicography


    <WARNING: this post includes language that some may find offensive. If you likely to be offended by such language, please either skip this thread or, alternatively, just get over it>


    Well, my rose thread is trapped on a Huddler server (and Grant's laptop, I guess) for now, so I thought I'd start a spin off thread. A flanker if you like.

    Just until the other one comes back (I hope it comes back - I put a lot of effort into it and didn't make a backup!)

    ----o----

    When we left off, I had been deep-diving some rose soliflors and posting my thoughts on them, and had some great input and advice from several awesome fellow Basenoters.

    I got into this rose odyssey because I had tried Malle's Une Rose, and it opened a door to a new, rose-tinted world for me. I wanted more. I hit Lutens Sa Majeste La Rose next, then Perfumers Workshop Tea Rose, and still have a bunch more lined up. I'll dump a few more into the rose thread when it comes back. All soliflors so far. And the next ones to come will probably be the Caron, Guerlain, and Creed ones.

    After my rosepiphany, I wanted to try as many rosefumes as I could get my hands on. Soft and innocent, earthy and grounded, rich and opulent, crunch green and Gaian, dark and sexy - this flower could do seemingly do anything, and still remain a rose. I wanted to explore her range and try to figure out how she does it.

    But I didn’t want to mess around with any half-assed roses, at least not at first. Know what I mean?

    I didn’t want a rose that’s part of an ensemble cast with a chypre accord, or lounging on an oriental base, or, god forbid, butched up with a patchouli / cumin / whatever man-note to make it dude-friendly.

    No – I wanted a no-bullshit rose, a rose that doesn’t share the stage with anything else.




    In other words, I guess I wanted a rose soliflor?


    ----o----


    Let's see ...

    From French Wikipedia:
    Un soliflore peut désigner :
    • en art floral, un vase destiné à ne contenir qu’une tige de fleur ;
    • en parfumerie, un parfum avec une unique dominante florale.

    So, either a vase, or “in perfumery, a perfume with a single dominant floral.” OK – that seems pretty simple.

    But that doesn’t quite capture what I’m talking about. The "no-bullshit rose" is a more specific. It’s a perfume that creates a single olfactory image - that of a rose, of course.

    Now that could be a photorealistic image of a rose. Do a headspace analysis of an actual rose and recreate it, and you’ll get a photographic NBS.

    A good perfumer can get close using his nose – maybe equivalent to a naturalist painting?




    But a great perfumer can go beyond naturalism. He can create an image of a rose that doesn't exist in nature, an abstract, or impressionistic one, maybe a surreal one?




    At least for now, I wanted to find perfumes that tell me a story about a rose, but I don’t mind if it takes liberties, embellished the facts a little. Or a lot. It can be a work of fiction – I’ll probably prefer that, in fact.

    It might use a "truffle accord" to sketch the damp, loamy earth the rose is rooted in. It might use citronella to suggest the crunchy green vegetality of the plant. Who knows?

    It can use whatever, as long as those whatevers support the cause - help to tell the story of the rose, without trying to make the story about themselves. I know this is very subjective.


    For future reference:
    No-bullshit rose: a perfume that is composed to create an olfactory portrait of a rose that may or may not be realistic

    Bullshit rose: by extension, a rose-prominant perfume that is not a no-bullshit rose. E.g. a rose chypre, a rosiental, a manrose, etc.

    Rosiental: a perfume with a recognizable rose note lounging suggestively on an oriental base

    Manrose: a rose perfume that butches up the rose enough so that a civilian guy can wear it without feeling like he’s wearing lipstick

    Brose: a manrose that appeals to the bros




    Well, that was a bit of a ramble. What was the point?

    I wonder how other people define a soliflor. What makes the difference between a rose soliflor and a rose perfume that is not a soliflor?
    Last edited by rubegon; 31st October 2013 at 07:53 PM. Reason: tweaks and typos
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    It seems you are in for sampling Or et Noir (dark rose and Caron's marron glacé accord) plus the Extrait of Amouage Lyric for sure.
    I agree with your definition of soliflor. I would not want to have too much interference from a chypre accord or sharing the scene with patchouli etc. like you mentioned. Another example in the jasmine field is Jasmin by Maitre Parfumeur et Gantier, which surprisingly to me gets no love at all, where jasmine is flankered by castoreum and notes to accentuate slightly the green side of jasmine.

  3. #3
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    In fact, I have a decant of the Caron coming already! I still need to find a sample of the Amouage. I was just in Dubai last month - I should have tested it there!

    They also have 3 rose attars that are not exported to the US. A Ta'if rose and 2 others. I just wasn't interested in them at the time. I did get the ambergris attar, though.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Ambergris attar.... sounds wonderful!
    If all sources fail, let me know about the Extrait!

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    teardrop's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    l agree with your definition of soliflore rubegon, & l like your subcategories also!

    Looking forward to the continuation of this interesting discussion.

    Have you thought of including any Montales in your research? Two come to my mind; Crystal Flowers; a No-BS rose, & Roses Musk; more of a BS rose.

    l also thought of Costes & Lumiere Noire pour Femme; two more BS roses.

    And what about the more humble Stella; on paper it sounds like a BS rose, but l get very little BS from it.
    "What is this secret connection between the soul, and sea, clouds and perfumes? The soul itself appears to be sea, cloud and perfume..." - from Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Soliflor: Rosenlust (never tried though)
    We want a 'Niche' forum.

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    hednic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Highness Rose by Montale from their confidential collection is a wonderful rose soliflor
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals don't warrant or deserve other individuals' acknowledgement or respect.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Oh what a great post/thread Rubegon. Discussions like this are what makes Basenotess a great place. Need to dash now but I'll be back......

  9. #9

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Not all roses smell the same and even 'soliflores' are accords

    I have never seen a fragrance with one note listed only

  10. #10

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Good definition. Of course, there will be a grey area between the bs rose and other genres (oriental, chypre, etc).

    Unlike you, however, I tend to prefer more complex perfumes than soliflores. Tania Sanchez said that (what you call no bs) roses should be judged by a panel of bees, not by perfume critics. I think that few flowers, if any, could stand alone as a proper perfumes, and these because of complexity: tuberose, gardenia, perhaps (debatable) narcissus. The others, good as they may be upon smelling, probably need something more to sustain the interest. (and then of course there are the flowers that should appear as little as possible, if not at all: linden, freesia, peony, etc)

    cacio

  11. #11
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Larimar View Post
    Ambergris attar.... sounds wonderful!
    If all sources fail, let me know about the Extrait!
    It's amazing stuff. It has the consistency of honey and smells softly of driftwood, warm skin, and the sea. Not a fragrance really - I plan to play around with layering it with some rose perfumes later, once I figure out which seem like they'll benefit from it.

    Thanks! Not even the decant sites seem to have Lyric Woman parfum. I'll check out a few more possible sources, and let you know if I get desperate.

    Quote Originally Posted by teardrop View Post
    l agree with your definition of soliflore rubegon, & l like your subcategories also!

    Looking forward to the continuation of this interesting discussion.

    Have you thought of including any Montales in your research? Two come to my mind; Crystal Flowers; a No-BS rose, & Roses Musk; more of a BS rose.

    l also thought of Costes & Lumiere Noire pour Femme; two more BS roses.

    And what about the more humble Stella; on paper it sounds like a BS rose, but l get very little BS from it.
    I wanted to try some Montales as well, but the range is so huge I didn't know where to start. I have Black Aoud, but that is clearly a BS rose. Hednic recommended Highness Rose, a Montale that is impossible to find, so that doesn't help me. I'll add those ^^^ 2 to my list, though. Thanks for the recs.

    Stella is by no means beneath me! I bought Tea Rose and tested it, after all. In fact, I already have a sample of Stella, although I haven't tested it yet. I want to try the Rose Absolute version too. That sounds like more of a good thing, and I'm tempted to just blind buy it.


    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Highness Rose by Montale from their confidential collection is a wonderful rose soliflor
    I'm sure it is, but I can't get my hands on it. Or are you volunteering to send me a sample? ;-)

    Do you know if it is still available in Paris? My wife is going there soon, and if they have it at the boutique, I may ask her to get me a bottle.


    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    Good definition. Of course, there will be a grey area between the bs rose and other genres (oriental, chypre, etc).

    Unlike you, however, I tend to prefer more complex perfumes than soliflores. Tania Sanchez said that (what you call no bs) roses should be judged by a panel of bees, not by perfume critics. I think that few flowers, if any, could stand alone as a proper perfumes, and these because of complexity: tuberose, gardenia, perhaps (debatable) narcissus. The others, good as they may be upon smelling, probably need something more to sustain the interest. (and then of course there are the flowers that should appear as little as possible, if not at all: linden, freesia, peony, etc)

    Don't get me wrong cacio. I have love enough for all kinds of roses - I'm no soliflor fundamentalist. I just started with rose soliflores because I was so unfamiliar with the note that I wanted to start simple, to get to know the note in relative isolation before trying to see it in the context of a more complex composition.

    And I agree that the scent of a rose alone, while beautiful, would be very boring to wear as a perfume.

    But I think TS's comment applies to a more limited definition of a soliflore - the ones that are essentially olfactory photographs of a flower.

    The "NBS rose" category encompasses perfumes that can be more abstract, but are still portraits of the flower - like the Dali up there ^^^^^. The Malle and Lutens ones I've tried are solid NBS roses to me, but they are by no means slavish headspace clones of the scent of a fresh rose. They are carefully constructed to present the rose in a very unique and distinct ways. They don't smell like fresh roses, and yet both are 100% about a certain kind of rose.

    The NBS rose can have many notes that are not in the scent of a real rose or it's extracts, but those notes must serve the purpose of depicting a certain kind of rose or a rose in a certain context. That allows a lot of room for development, stylistic variety, and artistic freedom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaern View Post
    Not all roses smell the same and even 'soliflores' are accords

    I have never seen a fragrance with one note listed only
    I think you either misunderstood or didn't read all of my post? Nothing I said contradicts anything you're saying here. I'm happy to discuss, but I don't understand your point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    Oh what a great post/thread Rubegon. Discussions like this are what makes Basenotess a great place. Need to dash now but I'll be back......
    Thank you dear! I'm going old-school basenotes style, despite my limited knowledge and olfactory powers. I'm hoping to coax some of the people that actually know their stuff to come out even if just to set me straight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Towers View Post
    Soliflor: Rosenlust (never tried though)
    That sounds like a really good NBS rose! It's all natural and has only 7 ingredients. I haven't tried it either but it has been recommended to me several times now. I need to find a sample somewhere.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    "Brose" nearly made me spit out my tea.

    For me, the difference between a rose soliflor and a non-soliflor is the strong presence of anything but rose. Lipstick Rose is a really good rose, but it's not a soliflor because of the violet. The Afternoon of a Faun uses rose beautifully, but in a supporting role.

    I was just thinking about applying the same categories to other flowers, like tuberose:

    No bullshit tuberose: Beyond Love
    Bullshit tuberose: Loretta
    Tuberosiental: Amarige?
    Mantuberose: Vierges et Toreros
    Tuberbrose: Tubereuse Criminelle?

  13. #13
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagey View Post
    "Brose" nearly made me spit out my tea.

    For me, the difference between a rose soliflor and a non-soliflor is the strong presence of anything but rose. Lipstick Rose is a really good rose, but it's not a soliflor because of the violet. The Afternoon of a Faun uses rose beautifully, but in a supporting role.

    I was just thinking about applying the same categories to other flowers, like tuberose:

    No bullshit tuberose: Beyond Love
    Bullshit tuberose: Loretta
    Tuberosiental: Amarige?
    Mantuberose: Vierges et Toreros
    Tuberbrose: Tubereuse Criminelle?
    Now there's a thought! I think jasmine would be pretty easy, but I'd be at a loss for for tuberose. I'd say another NBS tuberose would have to be Fracas. But I can't be sure, because anything that I detect tuberose in just becomes a TUBEROSE!

    I need to build up my tolerance to the flower.

    Yep - Lipstick Rose is a nice BS rose. I have a sample around here somewhere.

    I just ordered samples of Annick Goutal Rose Absolue - that should be as NBS as and NBS rose can get!
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    I am wondering if you take other performance indicators into consideration as important for your quest for a soliflore. I think more perfumers do not create soliflores partly because of structural limitations: there is no way to make a really long-lasting rose perfume without some base notes (fixatives) that then add another dimension to the perfume. Hence, the orientals and chypres (resins and oakmoss are all fixatives).

  15. #15
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Maque View Post
    I am wondering if you take other performance indicators into consideration as important for your quest for a soliflore. I think more perfumers do not create soliflores partly because of structural limitations: there is no way to make a really long-lasting rose perfume without some base notes (fixatives) that then add another dimension to the perfume. Hence, the orientals and chypres (resins and oakmoss are all fixatives).
    Performance is not a concern at all for me. I'm not looking to walk around smelling like a rose all day. ;-)

    I'm more interested in finding creative and interesting rose soliflores that go beyond the simple formula of "smell as much like a blooming rose as possible for as long as possible". Tea Rose nails that one - check.

    There are some rose-ish synthetics that can keep the rose going for very long times. Tea Rose is proof of that. But again, that's not a very interesting soliflore.

    Imagine a perfume that captures the life of a rose, start to finish. It starts dewey watery green, moves into full bloom, and then slowly withers and fades leaving the smell of dried petals and autumn in the air. That would be a great soliflore.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Yaaarg. This thread has been stuck in my head like a persistent tune.

    Okey dokey, well, I've read and digested all of your ideas, and the responses. I maybe have a wee few ideas too.

    First, to dispense with this one; Crabtree and Evelyn Rosewater Eau Fraiche.First of all can I say that it's far more robust than the airy fairy name suggests. It's a really good simple straightforward rose soliflore. Use it like an Eau de Cologne. But you commented that your Tea Rose nailed the rose in bloom, so you might not be looking for this. It is very much worthy of a mention though.

    Next up, yes, Une Rose. I have had this for a long time. It is a fantastic fragrance no doubt about it, and it deserves to be a major player in your odyssey. I wore it a lot at one point but then I began to find it very sweet, intense, jammy and liquer like, and all just a bit too, well, domineering. I have no doubt that will appeal to some folk though.

    The Rosine's. Do get the sample pack if you haven't already. Yes, some of them will come into your BS roses category, but the rose is smack bang in the centre of each and every one. There are green roses and sea spray roses, red roses and spicy roses, and it would be terrific to have you go through each of them and post your thoughts.

    Now, years ago, I was in Palma, Majorca and I found Adolfo Dominguez "Noche de Rosas". I loved it. I've always loved a rose and this was lovely, very natural, calm, ethereal, not sweet, nothing obvious to distract from the rose. There is also an Agua de Rosas and Agua Fresca de Rosas in the same range. Years later I discovered that the Perfumer who made it is Ramon Monegal. Recently I tracked the Noche down on a Spanish website (very cheap) and sadly, unless my nose, or my memory, are playing tricks, it's not the same. If you could get an older one it would be worth trying.

    Speaking of Ramon Monegal. There is a beautiful rose in his collection. Ramon Monegal L'Eau de Rose. I love this one. It is a cold rose and crystal clear, no sweeteness at all , a bit synthetic photorealistic, minimalist. This range divides opinion. Not everyone likes the spare style, often underpinned by synthetic woods. But I think that the rose is a little shiny beacon. Try to sample this one if you can?

    Caron has been mentioned previously, but there is a little Caron rose, Delire de Roses which I think is terrific, and so underrated, as it doesn;t seem to have been well received. I think that it is a must try for you, given your brief. It is a contemporary rose, a bit watery (by design I think), sheer (but not weak), limpid maybe. It is natural but not simple, and very clever. I had some samples from 'im up there ^^^^ and I thought that it was delightful.

    I have the Kurkdjian, Lumiere Noir, the femme, but I would have had either. Have you tried those? Is that too much of a BS rose? It's not really IMO. It's the rose that drifts around on wearing it.

    So there's my tuppenceworth. I know that I have another rose in my head but I can't find it, a rose that struck me as having all the stages of development of a rose as you describe above. I intend to hang around though so if I remember I'll pop back in. I don' t know the Amouage roses but they seem rated, and I look forward to hearing about them. I agreed with Teardop] about Stella, rose, enhanced by smoked amber. I haven't smelled it for years though but it was lovely when it launched.
    Last edited by Foustie; 31st October 2013 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Typos!! More typos and spelling errors!

  17. #17
    Basenotes Institution 30 Roses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    No input other than to say "Brose" really cracked me up!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    No input other than to say "Brose" really cracked me up!
    Ha Ha. Me too! Why no input............ ? Aw, go on.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    Now there's a thought! I think jasmine would be pretty easy, but I'd be at a loss for for tuberose. I'd say another NBS tuberose would have to be Fracas. But I can't be sure, because anything that I detect tuberose in just becomes a TUBEROSE!
    I thought about Fracas as a NBS tuberose too, but then I thought better of it: I do get a lot of orange blossom. And then I was thinking of an Orange Blossom categorization, but had to get to work.

    Thanks to this thread, I ordered samples of MFK Lumiere Noire Pour Femme, A Lab on Fire Rose Rebelle Respawn, and ELd'O Eau de Protection with my First in Fragrance order two days ago.

    By the way, I'm being lazy for not reading more carefully upstream, but did you try La Fille de Berlin? I don't think I've seen it mentioned, but it should be.

  20. #20
    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Did any of y'all see my pre-timewarp rose thread? I know Larimar jumped in on that one, but I think a lot of people missed it because I made the genius decision to give it a title that's in Latin. Here's the google cache version of it:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    So in that thread I was starting to explore rose perfumes and posting my impressions as I tried them, soliciting feedback, etc. That effort got me to consider what a soliflor is exactly. In the Edouard Flechier interview about Une Rose, he says that it's a soliflor, but it seemed very different to me than what I thought of as a soliflor.

    That's what got me on this track of thinking of soliflors in more than just a literal way. A perfume can still be a rose soliflor and yet contain molecules that no rose ever emitted.

    Anyway - when that thread rises from the grave, I'll continue posting my impressions about the perfumes I'm testing. I'm hoping this weekend, because I plan to do a clash of the titans: Caron Rose and Guerlain Nahema. It is time.



    In the meantime I started this thread to have a broader discussion of what a soliflor is. Can it be abstract? Am I getting too fanciful? Never mind BS roses - is the whole premise of this thread BS?

    I'll post the list of rose perfumes I've compiled for testing to date tonight and my thoughts about whether they are BS or NBS, and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts, arguments, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    Yaaarg. This thread has been stuck in my head like a persistent tune.

    Okey dokey, well, I've read and digested all of your ideas, and the responses. I maybe have a wee few ideas too.
    I hope that's a good thing, and not like the damn Miley Cyrus song my wife has hammered into my brain!

    I was hoping you'd have some ideas on the subject. And I wouldn't say "wee", but then you Scots have a proclivity for understatement, don't you?

    ---

    I've tried Une Rose, as mentioned above. Amazing piece of work, in my opinion. I haven't spent much time with it, as recounted in my other thread, but I have ordered a decant so I can give it more attention.

    The C&E sounds interesting. I'm interested even if it's a different kind of "rose in bloom forever" soliflore than Tea Rose. I'm not done with photographic soliflores by any means

    I've got a couple of Rosines on my list, but ordering the whole set isn't a bad idea. I'll look into it.

    I'll poke around to see if I can get something on the Spanish one.

    I have a sample of Delires de Roses parfum. I'll get to it on the other thread later. My first impression was definitely NBS, but as you say, a modern, watery one.

    I didn't know about the Kurk. I may have a sample lying around. I'll take a look.

    I have a sample of Stella, but want one of the Rose Absolute version.

    I just ordered a sample of the Amouage Lyric parfum, and have a decant of the EdP on the way as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    No input other than to say "Brose" really cracked me up!
    It would be a shame to have a thread about roses and not get some input from 30 Roses ....

    I have read a lot of your older posts on rose perfumes in my obsessive research on this little subjourney. I'd love your input - if not now, then maybe later?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kagey View Post
    I thought about Fracas as a NBS tuberose too, but then I thought better of it: I do get a lot of orange blossom. And then I was thinking of an Orange Blossom categorization, but had to get to work.

    Thanks to this thread, I ordered samples of MFK Lumiere Noire Pour Femme, A Lab on Fire Rose Rebelle Respawn, and ELd'O Eau de Protection with my First in Fragrance order two days ago.

    By the way, I'm being lazy for not reading more carefully upstream, but did you try La Fille de Berlin? I don't think I've seen it mentioned, but it should be.
    Haven't tried La Fille de Berlin, but I agree - I think I need to.


    The hypothetical NBS rose I mentioned up there ^^^ got me to looking, and I found this:

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  21. #21
    Basenotes Institution 30 Roses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Rubegon, I am one who likes more literal roses...probably not your cup of tea. By far my favorites are:

    Bulgarian rose: Creed Fleur de Thé Rose Bulgare
    English rose, à la David Austin: C&E original Evelyn (not Evelyn Rose in either its earlier or current form)

    But I also love Diptyque L'Ombre Dans L'Eau-- maybe that's a "brose?"

    The most literal rose I've smelled is a bit too literal for even me to wear often, and that is Highness Rose.

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    Dependent rubegon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    Rubegon, I am one who likes more literal roses...probably not your cup of tea. By far my favorites are:

    Bulgarian rose: Creed Fleur de Thé Rose Bulgare
    English rose, à la David Austin: C&E original Evelyn (not Evelyn Rose in either its earlier or current form)

    But I also love Diptyque L'Ombre Dans L'Eau-- maybe that's a "brose?"

    The most literal rose I've smelled is a bit too literal for even me to wear often, and that is Highness Rose.
    30R - I'm not really sure what type I like. My point is just that I think it makes sense to think of rose perfumes that are more conceptual as soliflores as well. I'm still trying to figure out what kinds of rose perfumes I like and want to own - some of which I might never wear as a personal fragrance.

    I thought Tea Rose was great, and will keep a bottle of it around from now on, I think. I won't wear it, at least not without layering it with something else. I might not wear any other literal rose soliflores either, but I'm hoping to find some that I love and will add to my collection.

    I tried the Diptyque in the new EdP formulation and the oil at Nordstrom recently, and took a sample of it. I liked it a lot, but I'm not sure I'd call it a soliflore. At first sniff, I considered it a BS rose, but sampling in a department store doesn't really count, so we'll see. I didn't think of it as a brose, but it might be a man rose. Do you think a typical (non-perfumista) guy would wear it?

    The Creed is another landmark one, as far as I can tell. I'm getting a largish decant of the old version, and I'll test it after the Guerlain and Caron ones.

    I'd love to try the Montale. hednic has done drive-bys on a couple of my threads now to name drop Highness Rose, but it seems to be completely unobtainable, and he never answers my questions about it. :-(
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    How typical is typical? Guys looking for the Same Old Thing in a masculine fragrance won't, and with the new rounded Diptyque bottles that look less unisex than the old rectangular bottles did, I wonder if the average guy would bother to pick the tester up in the first place. My husband, however, likes L'Ombre Sans L'Eau.

    A few months ago I smelled the new edp and the edt at Saks; the current edt seemed weaker to me than what is in my older, rectangular bottle. Or maybe I'm just imagining it; I didn't have my bottle along for comparison, after all.

    The Perfume Shoppe used to carry Highness Rose at discount but it appears they have sold out, and I don't know of any other source. You could ask them if they are expecting to get it back in.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post

    I'd love to try the Montale. hednic has done drive-bys on a couple of my threads now to name drop Highness Rose, but it seems to be completely unobtainable, and he never answers my questions about it. :-(
    Sorry for not getting back to you. You can place an order or inquire at the Perfumeshoppe in Vancouver. They will be getting it back in stock soon. I provide the link below. Hope this helps. Apologize again for the tardy response.


    http://www.theperfumeshoppecanada.co...ntale10-01.htm
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals don't warrant or deserve other individuals' acknowledgement or respect.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Sorry for not getting back to you. You can place an order or inquire at the Perfumeshoppe in Vancouver. They will be getting it back in stock soon. I provide the link below. Hope this helps. Apologize again for the tardy response.


    http://www.theperfumeshoppecanada.co...ntale10-01.htm
    Thanks hednic! They even have a sample program. I've hear Montale has others in their exclusive line, but they only carry Highness Rose and Pure Gold, I guess. I wonder if they'll let me order 5x Highness Rose samples for the sample kit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    How typical is typical? Guys looking for the Same Old Thing in a masculine fragrance won't, and with the new rounded Diptyque bottles that look less unisex than the old rectangular bottles did, I wonder if the average guy would bother to pick the tester up in the first place. My husband, however, likes L'Ombre Sans L'Eau.

    A few months ago I smelled the new edp and the edt at Saks; the current edt seemed weaker to me than what is in my older, rectangular bottle. Or maybe I'm just imagining it; I didn't have my bottle along for comparison, after all.

    The Perfume Shoppe used to carry Highness Rose at discount but it appears they have sold out, and I don't know of any other source. You could ask them if they are expecting to get it back in.

    Your husband is not a typical guy, and neither am I. What I call a "manrose" is a rose fragrance that a guy who isn't particularly into fragrance would consider wearing - Egoiste, Van Cleef and Arpels pour Homme. That sort of thing.

    I never heard of Diptyque before I got into fragrance, so I don't think I would have considered any of them. If I was typical back then, a typical guy needs clear marketing cues to know what he's supposed to wear.


    30R - do you grow roses? I've gotten interested in the actual flowers, and have a strip of landscaping where i wonder if I could pull off growing some roses. The local rose society is having their annual Fall rose show Saturday, and I'm dragging the family down there to see what kind of roses grow down here, and hopefully get an idea of whether this is feasible for me to take on.


    On Highness Rose - Perfume Shoppe shows it as a 100ml bottle, but I thought it was only sold in 50ml. Is it 100ml? Hednic or 30R - do you know for sure?
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Rubegon wrote

    Anyway - when that thread rises from the grave, I'll continue posting my impressions about the perfumes I'm testing. I'm hoping this weekend, because I plan to do a clash of the titans: Caron Rose and Guerlain Nahema. It is time.


    Sorry couldn't seem to copy in your post. But really looking forward to your and others thoughts on these two favorites.

    Wonderful thread.
    When we come to the other world and meet the millions of Jews who died in the camps and they ask *what have you done for us*.......I will say * I did not forget you*. Simon Wiesenthal

  27. #27

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quite a simple point really -- roses smell differently-- what genre of rose are you looking for?

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    ...
    30R - do you grow roses? I've gotten interested in the actual flowers, and have a strip of landscaping where i wonder if I could pull off growing some roses. The local rose society is having their annual Fall rose show Saturday, and I'm dragging the family down there to see what kind of roses grow down here, and hopefully get an idea of whether this is feasible for me to take on.


    On Highness Rose - Perfume Shoppe shows it as a 100ml bottle, but I thought it was only sold in 50ml. Is it 100ml? Hednic or 30R - do you know for sure?
    We do...we actually had 30 rose bushes (whence my name) but winter cold killed off some of them. Currently we have (including multiples-- we plant shrub roses in triangular groups of 3):

    • "Roseraie de L'Hay" (rugosa, great for landscaping)-- very fragrant, reminds me of Highness Rose with its spicy carnation note.This grows into a huge, tall/wide bush with abundant flowers, but stems are too short for picking as with all rugosas. No matter, the fragrance will waft through the air to you.

    Hybrid tea roses as follows; some we bought blind when we first moved here (a mistake if you love fragrant roses.)
    -- "Mister Lincoln." An excellent red rose, prize winner for disease resistance and scent, but you won't get a lot of roses. Plant more than one.
    -- "Chrysler Imperial"-- we had one of these at the house where I grew up. I never knew the name but after we bought our house, I searched for several years before successfully IDing it so as to plant it. This rose is one of the parents of Mister Lincoln. Gorgeous, velvety red petals, dark green foliage, amazing classic rose scent. I think if we ever plant more bushes to replace the ones that died, I might want more of this rose.
    -- "Double Delight"-- another prize winning scent, and quirky two-tone color. Beautiful shape. A great rose to cut.
    -- "Fragrant Plum" Amazing color and scent! Unfortunately it produces few roses and is weak and spindly as a bush. It was hybridized in Oregon so maybe it just doesn't like New England weather?
    -- "Full Sail" is a white sport of the pink rose, "New Zealand". It will be unmourned when it dies. We jokingly call it "Fabric Softener". Looks fine, but meh aroma.
    -- "Don Juan" Vigorous red rose bush-- that's it in my avatar. Not as scented as the others.
    -- "Midas Touch"-- intensely yellow but not as scented as we believed it to be when we bought it blind.
    -- "First Prize"-- Opens to a huge rose! Showy, but also not as scented as I would like. Bought it blind.

    We have also owned, in the past, "Elina" (beautiful yellow rose, not hardy enough for our winters, moderate pretty scent) and "John F. Kennedy" (mildly scented white rose, excellent for cutting, lasts a week in a vase, died after one year-- not cold hardy.)

    Were we to buy more hybrid teas, I would like "Eiffel Tower" (ruffly pink petals and great scent), and "Sweet Surrender" (boring pink color but amazing lemony/classic rose scent). "Pink Peace" is also excellent.

    David Austin roses as follows--
    -- "Abraham Darby"-- my favorite Austin. Exquisite scent, healthy, nicely shaped bushes, lots of flowers
    -- "Graham Thomas"-- my favorite yellow rose of any sort-- good sized bushes and lots of flowers, and I love the scent
    -- "Evelyn"-- the rose named by C&E, upon which their original eponymous rose scent is based-- gangly growth, a little paler than Abraham Darby. If you can only get one, choose Abraham Darby.
    -- "Gertrude Jekyll"-- extremely fragrant rose with an old rose scent, but the thorniest rose you will probably ever encounter. Must smell!

    If we were to buy another Austin, I would want "Pat Austin" to add variety in the color of our bushes. The two tone petals (orange on one side, yellow on the other) are beautiful, and I like the scent.

    The beauty of Austin is that he only grows fragrant roses, no exceptions. The bushes are shrubs and produce generously. Most are remontant (repeat flowering) but a few flower only once (like "Constance Spry".) The stems are slender, and in vases they make soft looking arrangements-- a very different look from that of hybrid tea rose arrangements.

    The only scent I loathe among the Austin roses is the so-called myrrh scent. In their catalog they clearly state which ones have the myrrh scent, which I suppose some people love-- we actually uprooted our 3 bushes of "Tamora" and threw them away, so vile did we find the odor. If you can get to a public rose garden, smell before buying!

    I did a blog post on raising roses, here:
    http://www.basenotes.net/entries/765...-raising-roses

    Adding this as an afterthought: There is a classic climber that you have to see and smell. The buds have a distinctive oval shape and the scent is also distinctive. "New Dawn". We had this in our yard where I grew up and I am always happy to see/smell it again in rose gardens.
    Last edited by 30 Roses; 1st November 2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: corrected an error

  29. #29

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    My mother and cousin would be quite interested (if they could read English, that is). They also love growing roses. Regrettably not just for the scent. Equally regrettably, I think they overwater them (they also have thirsty plants like gardenias), though luckily for them the soil is very stony and porous. Also for their luck, it almost never freezes, so roses always survive.

    Anyway, the most fragrant one in their lineup is a dark red Tuscan rose, I don't know the name of the variety, which smells very dark and deep, almost like rose syrup. They buy roses at a big store near Florence, which I think follows a model similar to David Austin (indeed, I believe they also sell these).
    http://www.rosebarni.it/

    cacio

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    We grow the very fragrant Damascena 'Kazanlik' , which smells like Ta'if rose oil to me
    damascenajpg.jpg
    and Omar Khayyam (which was apparently grown by Edward FitzGerald from a seed taken from a plant that used to grow on or near Omar Khayyam's tomb).
    ok & harebells.jpg

    Some of the the Gallicas are pretty fragrant , especially Rosa Mundi & Officinalis.
    Officinalis (The Apothecary's Rose) is like Rosa Mundi without the lighter stripes!
    RM.jpg

    x Complicata will also grow in poor places & scents an area of the garden when in flower - the huge individual flowers are not particularly fragrant but it's pretty spectacular in bloom - and not much affected by rain!
    complicata.jpg

    Etoile d'Holland is a lovely, fragrant climber and there is a bush version which we've never grown.
    EdH.jpg

    Peter Beales grows many unusual old varieties & stocks many species/hybrids.

    Alba semi-plena is one of my favourites too - most of my pics are on my laptop!
    Will go and find one..
    AsP.jpg


    Fewer people here seem to be planting roses these days.

    We live in a traditionally dry part of the U.K. which they don't mind at all and the sorts that we grow in our garden are pretty hardy - Tea Roses might not thrive here.
    Last edited by lpp; 1st November 2013 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaern View Post
    Quite a simple point really -- roses smell differently-- what genre of rose are you looking for?
    I understand that roses smell different. I wasn't at all asking for recommendations of a perfume that smells like a specific type of rose, though.

    My OP was just some thoughts I've been having about what it means for a perfume to be a soliflore. I don't think it's as simple a question as it seems, as I tried to explain. I was curious what other people thought about this.

    For you, does a rose soliflore mean only a perfume that is composed to smell as closely as possible like a specific natural rose?

    That seems to be the way most people think of a soliflore, including Tania Sanchez, according to the quote cacio mentions.

    But the composition of Une Rose seems to be something that goes beyond that, and yet Flechier himself describes it as a soliflor. That's what got me thinking about this.

    I was suggesting that a soliflore could be something more conceptual even than Flechier's composition.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    We do...we actually had 30 rose bushes (whence my name) but winter cold killed off some of them. Currently we have (including multiples-- we plant shrub roses in triangular groups of 3):

    ....

    I did a blog post on raising roses, here:
    http://www.basenotes.net/entries/765...-raising-roses

    Holy smokes! Thanks for that, 30R. Reading through your descriptions I want so many of them, but probably only have suitable spaces for a few.

    I should probably start with one in case I turn out to have a brown thumb. I can't count on my wife for any help. Plants quiver in fear when she walks by. She's never met a plant she couldn't kill through willful negligence and her complete disregard for the sanctity of plant life.

    I've given your blog post a quick look, and will come back to it over the weekend when I have some more time. I'm gong to that rose show tomorrow, so hopefully I'll get an idea what strains that do well here have what I want.

    I've never been much of a gardener, but I would love very much to have some beautiful fragrant roses growing at my home. I don't know if I can handle this, but I'm going to look into it.

    I need to see if the spaces I have are really suitable for growing them. Texas should be a good climate for them, I guess. I may have to modify the soil to improve drainage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wow! Thanks for the lovely rose porn, lpp!

    I particularly like the rumply pink Kazanlik and a deep magenta Etoile d'Holland. Just beautiful.

    Can centifolias be grown in the UK successfully? They grow in Grasse I think, but it's probably hotter and drier there.

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    We grow the very fragrant Damascena 'Kazanlik' , which smells like Ta'if rose oil to me
    damascenajpg.jpg

    Etoile d'Holland is a lovely, fragrant climber and there is a bush version which we've never grown.
    EdH.jpg
    So are tea roses primarily an American thing? Those are the ones I always pictured when I thought of roses. We actually had a small rose bush. It was there when we bought the house. Our neighbors' landscaping crew took it out when they had some landscaping done. They replaced it with some grass.

    I didn't even know it was a rose bush until my wife told me. The blooms were red, but small and opened flat, without the multiple layers of petals I'm used to seeing. I always imagined that all roses had the big teardrop shaped buds that open into that typical florist shop rose shape.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Roses View Post
    Sorry couldn't seem to copy in your post. But really looking forward to your and others thoughts on these two favorites.

    Wonderful thread.
    Thank you, Sea Roses. It's nice to hear that. I had gotten very disinterested in the type of discussion that happens in the MFD these days, so I thought maybe I should start the kinds of threads I wanted to read and participate in myself. I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

    I'm looking forward to testing these, but pretty intimidated by the thought of it. I'm not feeling at all confident about my ability to judge these.

    Well, even if I embarrass myself, it will be worth it if it leads to a good discussion and I learn something.
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  32. #32

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post




    I just ordered samples of Annick Goutal Rose Absolue - that should be as NBS as and NBS rose can get!
    Ok I'm glad you did.
    I thought maybe you didn't read it again I suggested it in the twi-huddler-light zone.

    As far as I'm concerned NBR come in primarily two renditions.

    Girly & soft rose - Rose Absolue

    Voluptuous rose: sa majeste la rose


    We regularly have these varieties oud roses growing in our garden eddy year.

    I prefer the latter.

    Or the former with oud oil & fumigate my clothes with oud wood.

    for swap/sale:





  33. #33
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    On Highness Rose - Perfume Shoppe shows it as a 100ml bottle, but I thought it was only sold in 50ml. Is it 100ml? Hednic or 30R - do you know for sure?
    I forgot to answer this. The perfume came in both sizes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post

    Holy smokes! Thanks for that, 30R. Reading through your descriptions I want so many of them, but probably only have suitable spaces for a few.

    I should probably start with one in case I turn out to have a brown thumb. I can't count on my wife for any help. Plants quiver in fear when she walks by. She's never met a plant she couldn't kill through willful negligence and her complete disregard for the sanctity of plant life.

    I've given your blog post a quick look, and will come back to it over the weekend when I have some more time. I'm gong to that rose show tomorrow, so hopefully I'll get an idea what strains that do well here have what I want.

    I've never been much of a gardener, but I would love very much to have some beautiful fragrant roses growing at my home. I don't know if I can handle this, but I'm going to look into it.

    I need to see if the spaces I have are really suitable for growing them. Texas should be a good climate for them, I guess. I may have to modify the soil to improve drainage.
    David Austin Roses is in Texas! So they must be able to thrive there. http://www.davidaustinroses.com/american/advanced.asp

    The show is a good start; if you can visit a rose garden, all the better. One good thing about seeing roses in a garden is that you can see what they look like at all stages, from bud to fully open flower-- and what they look like after a rain! Some roses manage to look good all the time ("Elina" was like that); some change colors as they open and then again as they fade away; some don't handle wet weather well at all -- the buds get glued shut and rot.

    Here is an encyclopedic book about rose cultivars (a cultivar is the specific rose, like "Mister Lincoln."): Botanica's Roses. Great photos and information-- see if your library has it in their reference section. If not that, they probably have other rose books.

    Don't be afraid to buy roses by catalog. They come bare roots; you have to soak them in water and plant them within the specified time. Or you can buy them in cardboard containers-- you plant them right in the container. The roots grow outward as the container disintegrates.

    Some hybridizers sell own-root roses (roses that have not been grafted onto root stock.) These can be an advantage for people who live in cold areas. The graft union is vulnerable to dying if it freezes (which is probably why some of our roses died), but if there is no graft, this can't happen. I can't see any advantage to having own-root roses in Texas, though.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by hedonist222 View Post
    Ok I'm glad you did.
    I thought maybe you didn't read it again I suggested it in the twi-huddler-light zone.
    I didn't miss it. :-)

    It just took a while to find samples! I've been in a bunch of places that carry AG and none seem to stock that one.

    I think I like the voluptuous ones too. I don't see Sa Majeste as so much that way though - it seems more green and fresh.
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    30R - thanks for the info. I will never get around to going to the library, so I just blind bought the book. With a forward by David Austin, by the way!

    I'll report back after the rose show tomorrow and probably post pics. I'm sure I'll get some leads on rose gardens I can visit locally, too. There will be mega rose nerds there that will be happy to point me in the right direction, I'm sure.
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  36. #36

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Jumping up and down in excitement. First things first. Thanks for the education, Rubegon. Now I know what a solifore is. Why am I excited? Okay, I'll confess. In fact, I can't wait to tell you! Apparently, when...um...when one has a dispute with one's "once and future" (i.e., former spouse one is considering re-spousing) and one is so mad one doesn't want to talk to him...apparently in such a circumstance, one learns a bottle of Une Rose is on the way to one's door!!!! Fainting!! See what you caused with that sample?? Many, many thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "I plan to do a clash of the titans: Caron Rose and Guerlain Nahema. It is time."

    Can't wait, Rubegon! I have a miniature Nahema and a sample of the Caron, at least I think I do...checking...Caron Delire de Roses EdP. Is that the one?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oops, I see it's not. Will try to get a sample.
    Last edited by ScentFan; 2nd November 2013 at 01:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by ScentFan View Post
    Jumping up and down in excitement. First things first. Thanks for the education, Rubegon. Now I know what a solifore is. Why am I excited? Okay, I'll confess. In fact, I can't wait to tell you! Apparently, when...um...when one has a dispute with one's "once and future" (i.e., former spouse one is considering re-spousing) and one is so mad one doesn't want to talk to him...apparently in such a circumstance, one learns a bottle of Une Rose is on the way to one's door!!!! Fainting!! See what you caused with that sample?? Many, many thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "I plan to do a clash of the titans: Caron Rose and Guerlain Nahema. It is time."

    Can't wait, Rubegon! I have a miniature Nahema and a sample of the Caron, at least I think I do...checking...Caron Delire de Roses EdP. Is that the one?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oops, I see it's not. Will try to get a sample.
    Congratulations! That's great news! He'd better not skimp and get you the 50ml. Now be sure not to abuse your new found perfume acquisition power - get very angry one too many time and he may catch on!

    The Caron is discontinued unfortunately, but I managed to pick up a full bottle on the cheap! Don't worry - I'll hook you up next time.
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  38. #38

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Rubegon wrote (again sorry I can't seem to use the quote function)

    Thank you, Sea Roses. It's nice to hear that. I had gotten very disinterested in the type of discussion that happens in the MFD these days, so I thought maybe I should start the kinds of threads I wanted to read and participate in myself. I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

    I'm looking forward to testing these, but pretty intimidated by the thought of it. I'm not feeling at all confident about my ability to judge these.

    Well, even if I embarrass myself, it will be worth it if it leads to a good discussion and I learn something.


    Hi again Rubegon,

    You are certainly not alone and you certainly will not embarrass yourself.

    This thread has been truly a delight for me.

    If you feel intimidated by these perfumes I think something is wrong here (meaning the forum) . For me I have gained so much knowledge from your posts and about a note I love.....rose. And I look forward to your thoughts about the next two.

    Une Rose has always been my *holy grail* of roses .....but at times (and it will always be the case) something is wanting.

    In northern Greece in a region called Thrace there are the most exquisite roses, that being so close to Bulgaria there is actually a *black market* where they are shipped over the boarder and sold as *bulgarian Rose*. To date I have never been able to capture that rose in a marketed fragrance......but I live in hope! There is a rose grown there so black and wild that it makes me giddy with it's fumes......The Greek Roma people know the market for these roses, but I was lucky enough to be given some once.

    You say you do not have the confidence to judge these perfumes......who does? You are taking time and effort to give us your thoughts and impressions which are greatly appreciated and have led to a wonderful discussion.

    For me, this is what basenotes should be about......I want to understand more, be able to express what I get from a fragrance and how other people feel, without feeling the need to to be some *expert*.


    Really I thank you for starting this thread, everyone who contributed, and look forward to your next posts.

    sea roses
    When we come to the other world and meet the millions of Jews who died in the camps and they ask *what have you done for us*.......I will say * I did not forget you*. Simon Wiesenthal

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    We do...we actually had 30 rose bushes (whence my name) but winter cold killed off some of them. Currently we have (including multiples-- we plant shrub roses in triangular groups of 3):




    -- "Mister Lincoln." An excellent red rose, prize winner for disease resistance and scent, but you won't get a lot of roses. Plant more than one.
    -- "Chrysler Imperial"-- we had one of these at the house where I grew up. I never knew the name but after we bought our house, I searched for several years before successfully IDing it so as to plant it. This rose is one of the parents of Mister Lincoln. Gorgeous, velvety red petals, dark green foliage, amazing classic rose scent. I think if we ever plant more bushes to replace the ones that died, I might want more of this rose.
    -- "Double Delight"-- another prize winning scent, and quirky two-tone color. Beautiful shape. A great rose to cut.
    -- "Don Juan" Vigorous red rose bush-- that's it in my avatar. Not as scented as the others.
    -- "First Prize"-- Opens to a huge rose! Showy, but also not as scented as I would like. Bought it blind.
    My father is a master rose gardener and growing up, we must have had over 100 bushes at our home in Central Florida. Those listed above are a few of the ones we grew, but my favorite of all time has always been Mr. Lincoln. Such a stunning, classically beautiful rose with an equally classically beautiful scent! I can only assume my own love of rose scents stems (Ha ha) from this rose filled upbringing.

    As for suggestions of true roses, or no BS roses, if I understand correctly you mean those whose intent is as rose and rose alone. I may have mentioned these in the other thread but I cannot recall so I'll list again the ones I've tried that fit this description. (I'll agree that the journey of the rose note is long and varied!)

    Keiko Mecheri Mogador ( this one only lists 5 notes and three are Moroccan, May and Bulgarian Rose!)
    Keiko Mecheri Damascena (two of it's 5 notes are types of rose)
    Une Rose, but you know about that one
    Creed Fleur the Rose Bulgare
    Serge Lutens Sa Majeste La Rose
    Tea Rose
    Le Labo Rose 31 feels straightforward to me, but not sure it's notes agree with that opinion

    Oh, and I'd agree that Nahema is very true as well.

    I too and thoroughly enjoying this thread, my only regret in reading it is the jealousy I feel toward your wife going to Paris to shop perfume for you!

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by danieq View Post
    My father is a master rose gardener and growing up, we must have had over 100 bushes at our home in Central Florida. Those listed above are a few of the ones we grew, but my favorite of all time has always been Mr. Lincoln. Such a stunning, classically beautiful rose with an equally classically beautiful scent! I can only assume my own love of rose scents stems (Ha ha) from this rose filled upbringing.

    As for suggestions of true roses, or no BS roses, if I understand correctly you mean those whose intent is as rose and rose alone. I may have mentioned these in the other thread but I cannot recall so I'll list again the ones I've tried that fit this description. (I'll agree that the journey of the rose note is long and varied!)

    Keiko Mecheri Mogador ( this one only lists 5 notes and three are Moroccan, May and Bulgarian Rose!)
    Keiko Mecheri Damascena (two of it's 5 notes are types of rose)
    Une Rose, but you know about that one
    Creed Fleur the Rose Bulgare
    Serge Lutens Sa Majeste La Rose
    Tea Rose
    Le Labo Rose 31 feels straightforward to me, but not sure it's notes agree with that opinion

    Oh, and I'd agree that Nahema is very true as well.

    I too and thoroughly enjoying this thread, my only regret in reading it is the jealousy I feel toward your wife going to Paris to shop perfume for you!
    Thanks danieq! I am in good shape - I have FBs of the Lutens and Tea Rose, a decant of the Creed in hand and of the Le Labo on the way, and a sample of one of the Keikos coming as well, but not either of those. I think it was your rec that motivated to look at Keiko, but I didn't remember which one and guessed wrong. Lotta roses in Keiko's house.

    The Le Labo is very much a BS rose to my nose. A manrose in fact, butcher up with a load of cumin and some other spices. Perhaps even a brose!

    As for the Paris trip, let me just say that she has had a very tough year. She earned this girl trip with her BFF several times over! She's going to spend most of her time in museums, but I get to make her to bring me back some perfumes. :-)

    ----o----

    Here's my complete list so far. Tested ones at the top, the rest sorted by house. I've tried to ID some as BS/NBS, but I'm not sure until I test.

    As always, comments are welcome. If you'd like take a crack at classifying BS/NBS or rose sub-genre, please have at it! Just copy the table and type over my comments.

    House Name Conc. Vintage Size Have BS / NBS Tested Comments
    Frederic Malle Une Rose EdP New Sample X NBS 1 Earthy rose
    Serge Lutens Sa Majeste La Rose EdP New FB X NBS 2 Crunch green rose
    Perfumers Workshop Tea Rose EdT New FB X NBS 3 Florist shop rose
    Amouage Lyric Man EdP New Sample X NBS
    Amouage Lyric Woman EdP Recent Sample coming
    Amouage Lyric Woman Parfum New Sample coming
    Annick Goutal Rose Absolue EdP New Sample coming NBS
    By Kilian Rose Oud EdP New Decant X
    Caron Rose EdP Recent FB X NBS
    Caron Delires de Roses parfum Recent Sample X
    Caron Or et Noir parfum Recent Decant coming
    Crabtree and Evelyn Evelyn EdP Vintage FB coming
    Creed Fleur de The Rose Bulgare EdP vintage Decant X NBS
    Creed Windor EdP 2012 Decant X manrose
    Czech & Speake Dark Rose Cologne Recent Decant X
    Dior Oud Ispahan EdP Recent Sample X BS
    Diptyque L'Ombre Dans L'Eau EdP New Sample X
    Eau d'Italie Paestum Rose EdT Recent Decant X chyprose
    Estee Lauder Knowing parfum Vintage Mini X BS
    Etat Libre d'Orange Rossy de Palma EdP Recent FB X
    Evocative Perfumes Evelyn's Rose EdT New Sample coming NBS
    Frederic Malle Lipstick Rose EdP Recent Sample X BS
    Frederic Malle Portrait of a Lady EdP Recent Mini X BS manrose
    Gucci L'Arte di Gucci EdT Vintage Decant X BS chyprose
    Gucci No. 3 EdT Vintage FB X chyprose
    Guerlain Nahema PdT Late 80s FB X NBS
    Guerlain Rose Barbare EdP New Decant X
    Henry Jacques Snow Rose parfum ? Sample coming
    Histoires de Parfums 1969 EdP New Decant coming
    Histoires de Parfums Rosam EdP Recent Sample coming
    Jean-Charles Brousseau Ombre Rose parfum Vintage Mini coming
    Juliette has a Gun Midnight Oud EdP New Sample coming
    Keiko Mecheri Attar de Roses EdP New Sample coming
    Le Labo Rose 31 EdP Recent Decant coming BS brose
    Les Parfums de Rosine Rose d'Homme EdP Recent Sample X
    Montana Parfum de Peau EdT Vintage FB X
    Ormonde Jayne Ta'if EdP Recent Sample X
    Parfumerie Generale Brulure de Roses EdP Recent Sample X
    Paul Kiler Dirty Rose EdP New Mini coming
    Paul Kiler Dirty Rose Oud Extreme EdP New Mini coming
    Serge Lutens Rose de Nuit EdP Vintage Sample X BS chyprosiental
    Serge Lutens Rose de Nuit EdP New Decant coming BS chyprosiental
    Serge Lutens La Fille de Berlin EdP New Decant coming
    Stella McCartney Stella EdP New Sample X
    Stella McCartney Stella Rose Absolute EdP
    Tauer Incense Rose EdP Recent Sample X
    Tauer Une Rose Chypre EdP New Mini X BS chyprose
    Tauer Une Rose Vermeille EdP New Sample coming
    Ungaro Diva EdP Vintage FB X chyprose
    Van Cleef & Arpels Rose Velour EdP New Decant coming

    - - - Updated - - -

    Aw, man! My table got all messed up! Too wide I guess.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    Thanks danieq! I am in good shape - I have FBs of the Lutens and Tea Rose, a decant of the Creed in hand and of the Le Labo on the way, and a sample of one of the Keikos coming as well, but not either of those. I think it was your rec that motivated to look at Keiko, but I didn't remember which one and guessed wrong. Lotta roses in Keiko's house.
    Keiko Mecheri does rose beautifully in my opinion, I've found several favorites there so I'll be interested in seeing your reaction. I own Attar de Roses which is probably my favorite, next to Lyric Woman, but it's not straightforward rose so I didn't include it. I also just received Bal de Roses but haven't tried it yet. I hope you enjoy the house as much as I do. I keep trying to get people to try KM as it seems a neglected house and I think the quality is stunning. She doesn't make things that are sillage bombs, they are all pretty light so perhaps that is the rub?

    - - - Updated - - -

    BTW, I love the way you dive into this journey! Such enthusiam is catching! I like your list too. I've tried quite a few on that list along my own journey, which started somewhere around July if memory serves. I've gotten to the point of wondering just how many Rose scents I can justifiably own.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Good picks!
    I hope you embrace Tauer's babies, no one else mentioned them but me even though each is wonderful in its own way, very distinctive and natural smelling.

    After Foustie's post, I had to orderRosine's 15 samples and Lumiere femme

    Lately, there are great posts in this part of the forum, it feels like pre-2010 Basenote's !

    PS: L'Ombre Dans L'Eau is such an experience, but because of the tomato leaf, so its a BS rose in the Dyptique's style of perfume.
    We want a 'Niche' forum.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    [QUOTE=rubegon;2984412]I

    Holy smokes! Thanks for that, 30R. Reading through your descriptions I want so many of them, but probably only have suitable spaces for a few.

    I should probably start with one in case I turn out to have a brown thumb. I can't count on my wife for any help. Plants quiver in fear when she walks by. She's never met a plant she couldn't kill through willful negligence and her complete disregard for the sanctity of plant life.

    I've given your blog post a quick look, and will come back to it over the weekend when I have some more time. I'm gong to that rose show tomorrow, so hopefully I'll get an idea what strains that do well here have what I want.

    I've never been much of a gardener, but I would love very much to have some beautiful fragrant roses growing at my home. I don't know if I can handle this, but I'm going to look into it.

    I need to see if the spaces I have are really suitable for growing them. Texas should be a good climate for them, I guess. I may have to modify the soil to improve drainage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wow! Thanks for the lovely rose porn, lpp!

    I particularly like the rumply pink Kazanlik and a deep magenta Etoile d'Holland. Just beautiful.

    Can centifolias be grown in the UK successfully? They grow in Grasse I think, but it's probably hotter and drier there.



    So are tea roses primarily an American thing? Those are the ones I always pictured when I thought of roses. We actually had a small rose bush. It was there when we bought the house. Our neighbors' landscaping crew took it out when they had some landscaping done. They replaced it with some grass.

    I didn't even know it was a rose bush until my wife told me. The blooms were red, but small and opened flat, without the multiple layers of petals I'm used to seeing. I always imagined that all roses had the big teardrop shaped buds that open into that typical florist shop rose shape. End Quote

    - - - Updated - - -
    Glad that you enjoyed the pics, rubegon!

    Hybrid Teas were popular here but need more attention than the newer hybrids and species.

    Centifolias grow here perfectly well - most types of rose are very hardy and the older types such as Centifolias, damasks & Gallicas are more resistant to disease than some of the H.T's.

    The Kazanlik is one of my favourites - the flowers retain their scent for quite a while when dried and are lovely left to dry in a bowl with lavender.
    It is grown in Bulgaria for oil production.

    Etoile D'Hollland is not seen much here - it's lovely growing up a wall and the scent is really very rich and fruity - a very old-fashioned, dark 'red' scent.
    Ours is on an arch, so that the blooms are easy to pull down to sniff!

    Thank you so much for this thread - the rose has been important to perfumery in many countries so it's great to see some appreciation.

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    Dependent danieq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    I know your point on here was to discuss soliflors so I ask forgiveness right off the top, but I did want to mention another soliflore rose scent that might be interesting.

    I've not tried the fragrance by itself, but Jurlique makes a line of skincare that is rose scented. They also have a small rollerball fragrance that is supposed to be the scent of their skincare products. Personally, I LOVE the scent and have been meaning to pick up the fragrance. Thought you might be interested as it's a very true, old fashioned scent that decorates the skincare line.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    maybe you've seen it already, but raphaella's roses seems to be a reasonable thorough list of rose ideas.
    http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com...sesSERIES.html
    also, aoud damascus by montale is quite nice.

  46. #46

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Roses View Post
    In northern Greece in a region called Thrace there are the most exquisite roses, that being so close to Bulgaria there is actually a *black market* where they are shipped over the boarder and sold as *bulgarian Rose*.
    sea roses
    If I picked up a novel that started this way, I'd stop all else and keep reading.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    I'll be doing some serious sniffing tomorrow, and I'll post regardless of whether my new thread comes back by then.

    Until then, photos from the rose show today...

















    and a bottle teaser for tomorrow



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Etoile D'Hollland is not seen much here - it's lovely growing up a wall and the scent is really very rich and fruity - a very old-fashioned, dark 'red' scent.
    Ours is on an arch, so that the blooms are easy to pull down to sniff!

    Thank you so much for this thread - the rose has been important to perfumery in many countries so it's great to see some appreciation.
    This ones sounds perfect! I have a spot of wall with a flower bed at its foot. I'd love to build a trellis for a wall full of these beauties to call home. It gets oblique sunlight and not completely direct though. I'm not sure that will work. If I could even pull it off.

    It's my pleasure! I'm finding this much more rewarding that cruising the MFD and JSO to look for mildly interesting threads to add a comment to. I'm just so happy to see there are still folks hanging around that are interested in participating in something like this.


    Quote Originally Posted by ben_from_boston View Post
    maybe you've seen it already, but raphaella's roses seems to be a reasonable thorough list of rose ideas.
    http://www.sniffapaloozamagazine.com...sesSERIES.html
    also, aoud damascus by montale is quite nice.
    Thanks ben_from_boston. I gave it a quick look, and it looks like a great summary. I think I'll stay away from it for now though. This is all about the journey for me, not the destination. I'll take the scenic route for now, and go where my nose and those of my fellow Basenoters leads me.

    I think I'm going to have to break down and order a bunch of Montale samples. Once I hear back from the Perfume Shoppe, I'll put together a set of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_Towers View Post
    Good picks!
    I hope you embrace Tauer's babies, no one else mentioned them but me even though each is wonderful in its own way, very distinctive and natural smelling.

    After Foustie's post, I had to orderRosine's 15 samples and Lumiere femme

    Lately, there are great posts in this part of the forum, it feels like pre-2010 Basenote's !

    PS: L'Ombre Dans L'Eau is such an experience, but because of the tomato leaf, so its a BS rose in the Dyptique's style of perfume.
    Thanks Brian_Towers!
    I already have embraced Une Rose Chypre. One spray after my mini arrived: WTH? for the first 30m, and then it came into focus and I was quite taken with it. I'll see how I get on with the others eventually.

    I may do the same with the Rosines. I have so much already, though! We'll see.

    The Diptyque is a big time BS rose, but one I think I like from first impressions.

    I for one, see myself starting threads mostly in the GFD these days. I've found that the character of the MFD and FFD don't really fit me. I completely relate to your sig, though. The FFD is like a great fancy garden party full of bright, smart, friendly ladies, but I feel a bit like a gorilla lumbering around in there. The GFD is more of a clean slate - that suits me. Besides, most things I have to say about scent these days have nothing to do with gender. I'm not willing to cede rose to the ladies. They'll have to share it.


    Quote Originally Posted by danieq View Post
    Keiko Mecheri does rose beautifully in my opinion, I've found several favorites there so I'll be interested in seeing your reaction. I own Attar de Roses which is probably my favorite, next to Lyric Woman, but it's not straightforward rose so I didn't include it. I also just received Bal de Roses but haven't tried it yet.

    ...


    BTW, I love the way you dive into this journey! Such enthusiam is catching! I like your list too. I've tried quite a few on that list along my own journey, which started somewhere around July if memory serves. I've gotten to the point of wondering just how many Rose scents I can justifiably own.
    OK - you've sold me. I went on the Keiko Mecheri website, and they have a great sample program, so I can get the others easily. I couldn't complete the checkout process, though. I'll try calling later.

    How many roses? Every one you can't be without, of course.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Roses View Post
    There is a rose grown there so black and wild that it makes me giddy with it's fumes......The Greek Roma people know the market for these roses, but I was lucky enough to be given some once.
    Thanks for that post. You make me want to go there.
    That is a rose I want to experience!
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    Basenotes Institution 30 Roses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Nice rose pics! Did you take down their names?

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    This is a great thread. It is exactly the combination of perfume discussion and off topic that I like. The photos are wonderful. I'd like to contribute, but I have not really explored rose perfumes fully. It seems as though you could spend a good portion of your life doing that.

    As far as growing roses, I have only one in my yard, an old fashioned climber called Zephirine Drouin( I think I spelled that correctly ). I planted it because it is nearly thornless and the scent is beautiful, sort of a fresh, fruity rose. The flowers are a medium magenta in color. Unfortunately, it does not do all that well where it is planted. It is too hot on the south side of my house and the summers here are humid. I suspect it needs better ventilation. And, I am not an experienced gardener.

  50. #50

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    This is getting better and better.......

    I am really looking forward to the results of your sniffing tomorrow!

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Thanks for the lovely pics, rubegon!

    Our Etoile is a little too close to the canopy of a massive ancient oak tree - it's not prone to mildew so it should be fine in your space!
    We had one growing up a south-facing wall on an old cottage once - it was trained to run horizontally below the upstairs windows and over the porch so that the blooms hung their heads.
    The person who had originally planted it, probably soon after it was bred, was given a rose plant each year by her husband for her birthday
    They do need a little patience before they take off 'though.

    Having been inspired by your thread, I've just ordered a sample of Etoile de Hollande by Mona di Orio...

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    We do...we actually had 30 rose bushes (whence my name) but winter cold killed off some of them. Currently we have (including multiples-- we plant shrub roses in triangular groups of 3):

    • "Roseraie de L'Hay" (rugosa, great for landscaping)-- very fragrant, reminds me of Highness Rose with its spicy carnation note.This grows into a huge, tall/wide bush with abundant flowers, but stems are too short for picking as with all rugosas. No matter, the fragrance will waft through the air to you.

    Hybrid tea roses as follows; some we bought blind when we first moved here (a mistake if you love fragrant roses.)
    -- "Mister Lincoln." An excellent red rose, prize winner for disease resistance and scent, but you won't get a lot of roses. Plant more than one.
    -- "Chrysler Imperial"-- we had one of these at the house where I grew up. I never knew the name but after we bought our house, I searched for several years before successfully IDing it so as to plant it. This rose is one of the parents of Mister Lincoln. Gorgeous, velvety red petals, dark green foliage, amazing classic rose scent. I think if we ever plant more bushes to replace the ones that died, I might want more of this rose.
    -- "Double Delight"-- another prize winning scent, and quirky two-tone color. Beautiful shape. A great rose to cut.
    -- "Fragrant Plum" Amazing color and scent! Unfortunately it produces few roses and is weak and spindly as a bush. It was hybridized in Oregon so maybe it just doesn't like New England weather?
    -- "Full Sail" is a white sport of the pink rose, "New Zealand". It will be unmourned when it dies. We jokingly call it "Fabric Softener". Looks fine, but meh aroma.
    -- "Don Juan" Vigorous red rose bush-- that's it in my avatar. Not as scented as the others.
    -- "Midas Touch"-- intensely yellow but not as scented as we believed it to be when we bought it blind.
    -- "First Prize"-- Opens to a huge rose! Showy, but also not as scented as I would like. Bought it blind.

    We have also owned, in the past, "Elina" (beautiful yellow rose, not hardy enough for our winters, moderate pretty scent) and "John F. Kennedy" (mildly scented white rose, excellent for cutting, lasts a week in a vase, died after one year-- not cold hardy.)

    Were we to buy more hybrid teas, I would like "Eiffel Tower" (ruffly pink petals and great scent), and "Sweet Surrender" (boring pink color but amazing lemony/classic rose scent). "Pink Peace" is also excellent.

    David Austin roses as follows--
    -- "Abraham Darby"-- my favorite Austin. Exquisite scent, healthy, nicely shaped bushes, lots of flowers
    -- "Graham Thomas"-- my favorite yellow rose of any sort-- good sized bushes and lots of flowers, and I love the scent
    -- "Evelyn"-- the rose named by C&E, upon which their original eponymous rose scent is based-- gangly growth, a little paler than Abraham Darby. If you can only get one, choose Abraham Darby.
    -- "Gertrude Jekyll"-- extremely fragrant rose with an old rose scent, but the thorniest rose you will probably ever encounter. Must smell!

    If we were to buy another Austin, I would want "Pat Austin" to add variety in the color of our bushes. The two tone petals (orange on one side, yellow on the other) are beautiful, and I like the scent.

    The beauty of Austin is that he only grows fragrant roses, no exceptions. The bushes are shrubs and produce generously. Most are remontant (repeat flowering) but a few flower only once (like "Constance Spry".) The stems are slender, and in vases they make soft looking arrangements-- a very different look from that of hybrid tea rose arrangements.

    The only scent I loathe among the Austin roses is the so-called myrrh scent. In their catalog they clearly state which ones have the myrrh scent, which I suppose some people love-- we actually uprooted our 3 bushes of "Tamora" and threw them away, so vile did we find the odor. If you can get to a public rose garden, smell before buying!

    I did a blog post on raising roses, here:
    http://www.basenotes.net/entries/765...-raising-roses

    Adding this as an afterthought: There is a classic climber that you have to see and smell. The buds have a distinctive oval shape and the scent is also distinctive. "New Dawn". We had this in our yard where I grew up and I am always happy to see/smell it again in rose gardens.
    Thanks for this post, and thanks to the op for this thread. I am a life long rose gardener who, in his 60th year, decided to try perfumes to supplement his fragrance addiction. Just this morning I posted a thread over in MFD the point of which was to get me to the the truest rose scents in perfumery--not being aware of this thread or of the other Huddler BN thread on the same subject. Guess I should get out more.

    Anyway, long story short, my fragrance odyssey began and grew up in the garden, and the rose garden in particular. I had more than 300 rose bushes in the ground at one time, of all varieties--teas, Austins, HTs, antiques, shrubs and climbers. I love growing them, love more photographing them--but most of all, love to smell them.

    And I haven't yet found a fragrance that captures the rose well. That may well be because I'm new to fragrance. But at this point I'm on a mission. It doesn't have to be rose only. But the ideal fragrance for me will feature prominently, at least, the smell of real, old fashioned, roses.

    So I'm going back to the start of this thread to begin re-reading and taking notes.

    Thanks again to all who have posted here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    We grow the very fragrant Damascena 'Kazanlik' , which smells like Ta'if rose oil to me
    damascenajpg.jpg
    and Omar Khayyam (which was apparently grown by Edward FitzGerald from a seed taken from a plant that used to grow on or near Omar Khayyam's tomb).
    ok & harebells.jpg

    Some of the the Gallicas are pretty fragrant , especially Rosa Mundi & Officinalis.
    Officinalis (The Apothecary's Rose) is like Rosa Mundi without the lighter stripes!
    RM.jpg

    x Complicata will also grow in poor places & scents an area of the garden when in flower - the huge individual flowers are not particularly fragrant but it's pretty spectacular in bloom - and not much affected by rain!
    complicata.jpg

    Etoile d'Holland is a lovely, fragrant climber and there is a bush version which we've never grown.
    EdH.jpg

    Peter Beales grows many unusual old varieties & stocks many species/hybrids.

    Alba semi-plena is one of my favourites too - most of my pics are on my laptop!
    Will go and find one..
    AsP.jpg


    Fewer people here seem to be planting roses these days.

    We live in a traditionally dry part of the U.K. which they don't mind at all and the sorts that we grow in our garden are pretty hardy - Tea Roses might not thrive here.
    Thanks for that post!

    Have you tried the Profumum fragrance named for Rosa Mundi? If it is even an approximation of its namesake, it ought to be a terrific fragrance.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    OK - my rosa pristina thread isn't back up yet. Rather than continuing to post my comments on other rose perfumes that I test here, I'm going to start a new thread. That way, I'm hoping it will be possible to merge that thread with the old one cleanly and have a continuous record of that path.

    I'll keep using this thread to post thoughts about solilfores and roses, classifications, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    Nice rose pics! Did you take down their names?
    Thanks 30R.

    Ummm - I probably should have done that. Oops! Sorry, I was in a rush because the kids were dying to get into the bouncy castle outside. The white one was a miniature rose with "violet" in the name I think. The big red one was call "Veteran's Honor" I think. No idea about the rest.


    Welcome james1051! Posting in the Male FD is probably not the best way to get rose recs. ;-)

    I hope this thread is more helpful.

    And the new thread is here:

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/370419-Stat-rosa-pristina-nomine-Part-2?p=2985634#post2985634

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and I looked into the Etoile de Hollande climbing rose, but David Austin seems to only sell this one in Europe. Does anyone know if its available in the US?
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  54. #54
    Basenotes Junkie james1051's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post

    Oh, and I looked into the Etoile de Hollande climbing rose, but David Austin seems to only sell this one in Europe. Does anyone know if its available in the US?
    It is. I grew it for years (left it behind when I sold my place a few years ago.) It is not a DA rose, much older than that. Although DA Roses may sell it retai.

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    DA does in fact sell it, but only for delivery to Europe. I will have to check around locally. I guess this isn't the time of year to be planting them anyway - spring is when one should plant new ones, right?
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  56. #56
    Basenotes Junkie james1051's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    DA does in fact sell it, but only for delivery to Europe. I will have to check around locally. I guess this isn't the time of year to be planting them anyway - spring is when one should plant new ones, right?
    Early spring for grafted plants. Early autumn or spring (not too early) for own root babies. Where are you located?

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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by james1051 View Post
    Early spring for grafted plants. Early autumn or spring (not too early) for own root babies. Where are you located?
    Texas gulf coast. We don't get many days of freezing temperatures in the winter, but every 5 - 10 years we do get a cold snap and see a bit of snow.
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  58. #58

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Musings on soliflores....

    I'm still going around with this thread stuck in my head, so I thought that I might as well gather some of my thoughts together. I do think that Rubegon's intention in this lovely thread is to discuss and consider the idea of Soliflore fragrances, as well as to try different examples of the rose soliflore genre. These are ramblings guys, not an essay and probably full o' typos because my spell check doesn't work since the home coming, but here goes. As always, do feel free to disagree.

    A soliflore, an impression of a single flower type, but not, by any means a single note. If I want to smell a good single rose note I could smell Bulgarian or Turkish Rose oils, absolutes, extracts, and attars, maybe a rose oxide. I could smell damask rose or cabbage rose, from France, Bulgaria, Turkey, Morroco. But to me, and I honestly have no idea whether I'm right, a Soliflore is a fragrance in which the accord or accords create the impression of a singl flower type. So we have our Iris Soliflores, such as Santa Maria Novella Iris (you can't get more authentic in terms of provenance than that), and of course Iris Silver Mist, and then the lilac soliflore En Passant, the violets of Violette de Toulouse, we have jasmine (Tawaf), sweet peas and hyacinths, ylang ylang, and carnations.

    There are some companies that I associate with soliflores. Usually old fashioned ones. I mentioned Santa Maria Novella who do many soliflores, rose, broom, hay, Zagara (orange flower) are only a few. Then we have companies like Morny, Crabtree and Evelyn, Bronnley. On of the best that I see quoted again and again is the Perfumers Workshop Tea Rose.

    When does a fragrance stop being a soliflore? Rose soliflores can have many, many notes and accords. Galbanum may add to the impression of a green, garden rose, patchouli to an earthy rose, there is a clove note present in many roses. If we look at Iris, we can have earthy Iris, powdery Iris, doughy Iris, vegetal Iris. We can have single flower accords, single flowers enhanced by other accords, think about Tocade, which is Rose and Vanilla. What about Rose D'Arabie, which is Rose and Oud. Is that still a soliflore? Can we have demi-soliflores? Semi- soliflores?

    For the sake of context should we acknowledge that rose is a major player in complex, melange accords, with the great triumvirate; rose, jasmine and ylang ylang. Quite the opposite end of the spectrum from a soliflore. Think of the great, the magnificent icons of french perfumery. Think about Jean Patou 1000. Personally I have a soft spot for soliflores, rather than these great bombastic accords.

    For me, as long as the flower is central, the focus, the muse, then I would experience it as a soliflore. I think that I would expect a restraint though, a simplicity in the experience even if the composition is complex. If I smell a rose oud, or a vetiver rose (recommend one ....please.....) or anything that transports me to an image of a particular flower or material, no matter how enhanced, how well painted, how abstract, minimalist, how ornate, if that wonderful fragrance conjured a shimmering, virtual, olfactory image of a single flower I would happily consider it to be a rose fragrance, or an Iris centric fragrance, but a soliflore? No, not always. I think that for me there is a difference. I would say that Lumiere Noir is a rose but is it a rose soliflore? There is line to be drawn between a rose soliflore, a rose dominant accord and a fragrance with an obvious rose note.

    I don't know where it is though! Do you?
    Last edited by Foustie; 6th November 2013 at 08:21 PM.

  59. #59
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Aha! Now we're talking!

    Thanks Foustie - great post! I'm going to stew over it a bit and reply tonight.

    Do you know Nahema, Sa Majeste and/or Une Rose? Those are the "debatable" ones I've tested, so it's easiest to respond by referring to them...
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  60. #60

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    I think it's easiest to know what a soliflore is by contrasting them against 'bouquets', fragrances which contain notes of several flowers such that no particular floral note stands out. I believe this is the traditional idea of soliflores.

    I also think that soliflores tend to be more photorealistic in the sense that these scents want to convey the impression of natural beauty, whereas bouquets lean towards abstraction: a floral scent, but not any specific flower (think Chanel No. 5, or Hermès Jour d'Hermès).

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