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  1. #61
    Dependent danieq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Jo Malone is a decent place to go for soliflores isn't it? At least very simplistic combos with a limited number of notes.

    The only true soliflores I've experienced in the rose genre have been the following: Creed The Rose Bulgare, Tea Rose, Jo Malone Red Roses. All the rest I've tested have more going on.

    Pur Desir de Mimosa is very much a soliflore to my nose. L'Artisan Mimosa Pour Moi is another one that reads as a soliflore to me. Mimosa of course.

    Sometimes, they do have more notes in them, but the character reads solo. I agree with Maque, it does tend to be a photorealistic feel that the perfumers go for. Personally, I tend to prefer a soliflore over a bouquet. I like smelling the individual characters. I eat my ice cream that way too, no toppings please.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    I do think that Rubegon's intention in this lovely thread is to discuss and consider the idea of Soliflore fragrances, as well as to try different examples of the rose soliflore genre.
    That's exactly right. What got me started was the Malle copy for Une Rose:

    ...Une Rose seems to emanate from the skin, the intoxicating, earthy aroma of a garden rose pulled from the ground with its roots - that's Une Rose. A master’s rose.
    Earthy. That's not a word I would normally think of to describe a rose soliflore. This sounded like a rose perfume to me, but not what I thought of as a soliflore. And yet Flechier considers it to be one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    A soliflore, an impression of a single flower type, but not, by any means a single note.
    ...
    a Soliflore is a fragrance in which the accord or accords create the impression of a single flower type.
    Yep. Completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    When does a fragrance stop being a soliflore? Rose soliflores can have many, many notes and accords. Galbanum may add to the impression of a green, garden rose, patchouli to an earthy rose, there is a clove note present in many roses. If we look at Iris, we can have earthy Iris, powdery Iris, doughy Iris, vegetal Iris. We can have single flower accords, single flowers enhanced by other accords, think about Tocade, which is Rose and Vanilla. What about Rose D'Arabie, which is Rose and Oud. Is that still a soliflore? Can we have demi-soliflores? Semi- soliflores?
    The fragrance of a real rose includes molecules that are also present is other things, right? A rose blossom that smells fruity is releasing some fragrant molecule that is present is some fruits as well.

    So a rose perfume that adds some synthetic fruity chemicals - aldehydes or whatever - still smells like a rose because it's staying within the rose's repertoire. If a perfumer amplifies this fruity aspect to an unnatural level, is this still a soliflore? At some point our brains will say "this isn't a rose" and it becomes a fruity floral. Similarly, the addition of something un-rose could add texture, freshness, warmth, etc. but too much and it becomes a rose+X perfume.

    People see things differently, and this line is going to be very subjective. Tocade to me is not a rose soliflore, and Jicky is not a Lavender soliflore. With those, the rose or lavender combines with vanilla in a "more than the sum of the parts" way. They form an accord that seems like something different than its components. These are "proper" perfumes. Synergy leads to abstraction in these compositions whereas soliflores are meant to smell like a specific thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    For the sake of context should we acknowledge that rose is a major player in complex, melange accords, with the great triumvirate; rose, jasmine and ylang ylang. Quite the opposite end of the spectrum from a soliflore. Think of the great, the magnificent icons of french perfumery. Think about Jean Patou 1000. Personally I have a soft spot for soliflores, rather than these great bombastic accords.
    Of course, but these are "abstract florals" that smell flowery but not like any specific flower. The best ones smell like a new flower. Chanel No 5 is distinctive and beautiful. Is it better than the scent of a rose? It depends on who you ask. But it was unique at the time, and sometimes novelty wins just because it stands out (as long as its good).

    I'm still figuring out what I like, but I can say this: I'll gladly wear a rose soliflore, but I won't be walking around in symphonic French floral cloud any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foustie View Post
    For me, as long as the flower is central, the focus, the muse, then I would experience it as a soliflore. I think that I would expect a restraint though, a simplicity in the experience even if the composition is complex. If I smell a rose oud, or a vetiver rose (recommend one ....please.....) or anything that transports me to an image of a particular flower or material, no matter how enhanced, how well painted, how abstract, minimalist, how ornate, if that wonderful fragrance conjured a shimmering, virtual, olfactory image of a single flower I would happily consider it to be a rose fragrance, or an Iris centric fragrance, but a soliflore? No, not always. I think that for me there is a difference. I would say that Lumiere Noir is a rose but is it a rose soliflore? There is line to be drawn between a rose soliflore, a rose dominant accord and a fragrance with an obvious rose note.
    I don't know where it is though! Do you?
    No way! I don't know anything. I'm wondering if all my elaborate ideas about "interpretive" soliflores even make any sense.

    No one has really commented on this, so maybe I've gone off the deep end. :-)

    Clearly a literal representation of a rose is a rose soliflor. No question there.

    But do the non-literal ones count? Going back to Une Rose: I think I can see this as a soliflore that represents not just the rose, but the rose is still the focus. Flechier has zoomed out a bit and is showing us the earth and the air around that rose. It has notes that are not in any rose. Does this one count? Purists would say no - maybe 30Roses among them. And I can certainly see their point. One could argue that this "roots and all" stuff is a bunch of baloney. It's just a dirt and rose perfume - no soliflore.

    What about Nahema? It doesn't smell like a rose at all for a while. It smells like a big, loud juicy synthetic green thing. It seems like all of the pieces of a rose scent are in there, because it eventual smells like one. But JPG has arranged those pieces in such a way that they first create this jarring un-rose thing - the fiery rebellious princess. Then her heart is revealed when the rose appears in the heart. It's all rose, but chopped up and the pieces re-purposed to serve as a metaphor for a girl. Is that a soliflore?

    I think it's a very creative one. Maybe it's even a piece of art, although I don't enjoy it very much on a gut level.

    But what if you don't know the back story? If you smell this thing unawares, you might think "This is a big synthetic green floral …. oh, wait - there's some rose coming out now. Nice." Does the perfumer's intent matter?

    Maybe not, and maybe this isn't a very meaningful question to most people.

    I've been enjoying trying to understand what the perfumer's approach was in each of these. Let's face it - rose has been done to death. I love the thought that perfumers would invest so much creativity and artistry in these unusual, non-traditional approaches to making a perfume that is all about a rose.

    Then again, maybe I'm just gullible and falling for the marketing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maque View Post
    I think it's easiest to know what a soliflore is by contrasting them against 'bouquets', fragrances which contain notes of several flowers such that no particular floral note stands out. I believe this is the traditional idea of soliflores.

    I also think that soliflores tend to be more photorealistic in the sense that these scents want to convey the impression of natural beauty, whereas bouquets lean towards abstraction: a floral scent, but not any specific flower (think Chanel No. 5, or Hermès Jour d'Hermès).
    Absolutely! These are the clear cut cases, as far as I can tell. I don't want to discount these at all, especially not the traditional style of soliflores. I don't mean to give the impression that I think these are lesser somehow. I've just gotten on this track of thinking about non-traditional ones. How far can a perfumer successfully stretch our understanding of what a soliflor can be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by danieq View Post
    Jo Malone is a decent place to go for soliflores isn't it? At least very simplistic combos with a limited number of notes.

    The only true soliflores I've experienced in the rose genre have been the following: Creed The Rose Bulgare, Tea Rose, Jo Malone Red Roses. All the rest I've tested have more going on.

    Pur Desir de Mimosa is very much a soliflore to my nose. L'Artisan Mimosa Pour Moi is another one that reads as a soliflore to me. Mimosa of course.

    Sometimes, they do have more notes in them, but the character reads solo. I agree with Maque, it does tend to be a photorealistic feel that the perfumers go for. Personally, I tend to prefer a soliflore over a bouquet. I like smelling the individual characters. I eat my ice cream that way too, no toppings please.
    I've never seriously explored the Jo Malone range. I tested them once when I was just starting out, and didn't like the concept. Simple, duets made for layering. They seemed too simplistic and I didn't want to bother with layering to find a good combo. That's what perfumers are for!

    I think I need to try Red Roses, though. It sounds right up my alley, rose-wise.
    Last edited by rubegon; 7th November 2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    The pelargonium in 'Une Rose' was quite apparent in my sample, although the interpretation of 'a rose' was quite clear to me.

    This is a 2013 sample, if that makes any difference btw.
    Last edited by lpp; 7th November 2013 at 05:49 PM.

  4. #64
    Lifelong Sniffaholic
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    ....
    Clearly a literal representation of a rose is a rose soliflor. No question there.

    But do the non-literal ones count? Going back to Une Rose: I think I can see this as a soliflore that represents not just the rose, but the rose is still the focus. Flechier has zoomed out a bit and is showing us the earth and the air around that rose. It has notes that are not in any rose. Does this one count? Purists would say no - maybe 30Roses among them. And I can certainly see their point. One could argue that this "roots and all" stuff is a bunch of baloney. It's just a dirt and rose perfume - no soliflore.
    ....
    FWIW, to me Une Rose is a soliflore-- a big, honking in-your-face rose, no mistaking what it is. It does become more impressionistic as it develops, though, and it doesn't work on my skin at that point. I sprayed a card with it, and over a year later the card still smelled of Rose with a capital R.

    You should sample JM Red Roses, certainly, but that is one that does absolutely nothing for me. It's like overly-thin soup. But then the Malones are meant to be layered.


  5. #65

    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Quote Originally Posted by rubegon View Post
    That's exactly right. What got me started was the Malle copy for Une Rose:



    Earthy. That's not a word I would normally think of to describe a rose soliflore. This sounded like a rose perfume to me, but not what I thought of as a soliflore. And yet Flechier considers it to be one.




    Yep. Completely agree.



    The fragrance of a real rose includes molecules that are also present is other things, right? A rose blossom that smells fruity is releasing some fragrant molecule that is present is some fruits as well.

    So a rose perfume that adds some synthetic fruity chemicals - aldehydes or whatever - still smells like a rose because it's staying within the rose's repertoire. If a perfumer amplifies this fruity aspect to an unnatural level, is this still a soliflore? At some point our brains will say "this isn't a rose" and it becomes a fruity floral. Similarly, the addition of something un-rose could add texture, freshness, warmth, etc. but too much and it becomes a rose+X perfume.

    People see things differently, and this line is going to be very subjective. Tocade to me is not a rose soliflore, and Jicky is not a Lavender soliflore. With those, the rose or lavender combines with vanilla in a "more than the sum of the parts" way. They form an accord that seems like something different than its components.
    Nicely put Rubegon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    FWIW, to me Une Rose is a soliflore-- a big, honking in-your-face rose, no mistaking what it is.
    I agree, and how well put! Love it!

    We seem to be agreeing so far. Are there no voices of dissent?

  6. #66
    Dependent danieq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    I dissent, yeah, cause we definitely need some dissent here.


    Ok, I don't really. Perhaps we need a new topic on which we can have dissenting opinions?

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    I'm trying to avoid dusting, please give me a break.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Some thoughts on soliflors and such

    Maybe so! :-)

    I can't think of one though ...

    I'm going to switch over to the other thread for a while and keep sniffing and writing. I may come back to this one if that leads to any new thoughts on the subject.

    Caron, Creed, and Crabtree and Evelyn queued up.
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