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  1. #1

    Default Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Would anyone be able to share a basic formula for a lily accord (or point me in the right direction) ?
    Many thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Thanks, Paul.
    I was actually looking for a lily (lys) rather than a lily of the valley (muguet) accord though.
    A formula such as those from Givaudan which you linked would be perfect, but if such a thing isn't in the public domain it's no problem. My interest is purely academic at this point.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    There are a lot of golden oldie accord posts here in Basenotes, but not much for Lily. So here's what I have found.

    Headspace analysis seems not of great use. According to Bo Jensen, for 4 lilies, Cis-ocimene and linalool are the major terpenoids and the major compounds common to two or more varieties are: 1,8-cineole, benzaldehyde, methyl benzoate, ethyl benzoate, creosol and isoeugenol.
    According to Joulain, Lilium Candidum headspace is mainly phenylethyl alcohol 24.5% and Linalool 15.5%.

    Lily oil, according to Anonis (Flower Oils and Floral Compounds in Perfumery 1993), contains p-cresol, linalool, alpha-terpineol, & phenylethyl alcohol esterified with acetic, palmitic & cinnamic acids. According to Cerbelaud's classification, lily is in the tuberose/narcissus group. The perfumery base is principally linalyl cinnamate, lilac, jasmin & rose. Other chemicals are amyl benzoate, benzyl salycilate, dimethyl benzyl carbonate & its acetate, alpha ionone, isobutyl phenyl acetate, isobutyl salicylate, isoeugenol, p-cresyl phenyl acetate, phenyl propyl alcohol, & aldehyde, phenyl ethyl acetate, p-methyl acetophenone, beta-methyl napthyl ketone. Aldehydes c-10, c-11, c-12, & c-14 may be added in small amounts. For the top note, bergamot, lemon & orange oils are used. Among other naturals, cananga, petitgrain, ylang ylang, tolu balsam, styrax & bezoin resinoids may be mentioned. For more expensive lily compounds cassie, jasmin, narcissus, orange flower, rose and tuberose absolutes may be used. Trace components may include coriander, hay absolute, phenyl ethyl propionate and benzaldehyde.

    Anonis lists a few accords but I think the most useful are:
    Gerhardt, Das Komponieren in der Parfuemerie 1931, Lily Rose
    415 Phenylethyl alcohol
    210 Citronellol
    140 Hydroxycitronellal
    110 Phenylacetaldehyde
    85 Geranium African
    40 Isoeugenol

    Renť Cerbelaud 1920, Lily flower-
    20 Terpineol
    15 Linalyl cinnamate
    10 Linalool
    10 Neroli synth
    10 Geraniol
    10 Hydroycitronellal
    5 Phenylethyl alcohol
    5 Cananga
    5 Heliotropin
    1 Linalyl acetate
    1 Aldehyde C-10 10%
    13 Solvent

    Lush/Gorilla's fabulous new Death & Decay is an indolic Lily, and the listed ingredients include-
    Ylang, Rose, Jasmine abs (Grandiflorum), Tonka abs, Benzyl Benzoate, Benzyl cinnamate, Citral, Farnesol, Geraniol, Eugenol, Limonene, Linalool, Methyl Ionone, Amyl Cinnamal, Benzyl alcohol, Benzyl Salycilate, Lilial, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Citronellol, Coumarin, Hydroxycitronellal.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    ^ Thank you very much for typing that all out, Nemenator. Much appreciated !

  6. #6

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I just got to smell some lilies a few weeks ago.. They're quite phenolic.. And this doesn't appear in the accords above.. So you might want to experiment with the cresols mentioned.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Poucher Madonna Lily 1062
    100 Terpineol
    150 Linalol
    250 Hydroxy-citronellal
    50 Amyl cinnamic aldehyde
    100 Citronellol
    30 Phenyl propyl alcohol
    10 tuberose abs
    50 Phenylethyl salicylate
    10 Neroli oil
    20 Ylang ylang oil - manilla
    90 Jasmin no. 1053 (can provide if you need it)
    100 Bergamot oil
    40 Para-cresyl phenylacetate
    1000
    Last edited by mumsy; 15th September 2014 at 10:10 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    The para Cresyl Phenylacetate is very important.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Mumsy, thanks so much for the Poucher formula. Between the original posting in '13 and the recent bumping, I was actually lucky enough to find a set of his books going cheap. It's no doubt useful to have a record of the formula on here, too.
    Nizan and David, thank you both for your comments, too.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I have just completed Poucher Madonna Lily 1062 and i agree with David. para Cresyl Phenylacetate is one of the key ingredients ( narcotic sweet phenolic note ) . I have skipped Phenylethyl salicylate, because i dont have it and replaced jasmin no 1053 with synthetic jasmine. I have added little amount of hedione ( 2% ) to round harsh notes ( linalool,terpineol... )
    Last edited by Milhaus; 15th September 2014 at 11:24 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Actually I'm finding the Para Cresyl PA in this formula a bit weak.. It's almost disappearing in the background. Tried boosting the effect up with a little Phenyl Acetaldehyde and m Cresol, but I'm being a bit apprehensive with pushing it further.. Any ideas how much more could be ok?
    I've seen a demo on TGSC where the ratio between para cresyl phenylacetate and hydroxycitronella is higher..
    Thank

  12. #12

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I'm surprised you think para Cresyl Phenylacetate weak; you could always add more. Have you tried para Cresyl Acetate, even stronger though not so floral.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    It's not so weak on its own (I have it at 10%), but it kind of disappears in the accord. Also, I think I was expecting something more phenolic.. I remember that lilies have that really warm scent, and the pCPA doesn't remind me of it. I also remember them having a harsh green contrast. Maybe I should go an smell some, but I don't have time since I'm planning it for something on Monday :\
    You would absolutely avoid meta Cresol?

    Update : It seems that I forgot to add the Terpineol.. But even that didn't help. I decided to put some Geraniol and now I can smell the pCPA and the mCresol in there! How non linear.. I also added Amyl Salicylate a tiny bit if Ultravanil and a little Oakmoss to round things up (I've seen Orcynil mentioned somewhere, and it took some of the edge off..).
    I think I'm happy now. Might add more m Cresol later.. I'm a bit confused about it - TGSC list a high vapour pressure and 400 substantivity..hmm..
    Last edited by Nizan; 31st October 2014 at 01:03 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    It's not so weak on its own (I have it at 10%), but it kind of disappears in the accord. Also, I think I was expecting something more phenolic.. I remember that lilies have that really warm scent, and the pCPA doesn't remind me of it. I also remember them having a harsh green contrast. Maybe I should go an smell some, but I don't have time since I'm planning it for something on Monday :\
    You would absolutely avoid meta Cresol?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The para Cresyl Phenylacetate is very important.
    Agreed, itís vital for this type of fragrance - and for narcissus types - but itís quite hard like on its own. Iíve nicknamed this one Horse Acetate because the whole place smells like a stable when Iím doing anything with it in any quantity!
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
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    Chris Bartlett
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Actually I'm finding the Para Cresyl PA in this formula a bit weak.. It's almost disappearing in the background. Tried boosting the effect up with a little Phenyl Acetaldehyde and m Cresol, but I'm being a bit apprehensive with pushing it further.. Any ideas how much more could be ok?
    I've seen a demo on TGSC where the ratio between para cresyl phenylacetate and hydroxycitronella is higher..
    Thank
    Iíve not made this particular formula up but Iíd have thought there was enough there already. Also Iíd be concerned that Phenyl acetaldehyde will take you too far in the hyacinth direction. For me the surprise absence in that formula is indole, which is what Iíd suggest to give that warmth youíre looking for.

    EDIT: Just a thought on that green note - you might try Isocyclocitral for that - also Helional works very well in this type of accord and if you have it you might try replacing your Hedione with the HC version to aid projection a bit more.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 31st October 2014 at 01:17 PM. Reason: extra info
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I've put a tiny bit of Phenyl Acetaldehyde.. It didn't do much and I stopped because I was afraid.. It was found in some species of Lilium, though..
    I don't have any Isocyclocitral.. :\ Maybe I'll try Helional.
    I've also seen that Ocimene is pretty common in the headspace, so I might try Tagetes..
    I didn't use Hedione yet.. It always ruins things for me. I might try Zeppin, though.. And maybe Isoeugenol.

    Are you sure Indole is present in lilies? I haven't seen any mention of it..

    Hmm.. Not sure how to do this without ruining my batch, though :\

  18. #18

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    there is one producer in colombia that actually extracts lily using enfleurage and organic certified esencialife.com. I use his oils all the time but obviously very expensive. I tried extracting lily last year using the cold enfleurage technique but used all my flowers before it was suffiently infused.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I've put a tiny bit of Phenyl Acetaldehyde.. It didn't do much and I stopped because I was afraid.. It was found in some species of Lilium, though..
    I don't have any Isocyclocitral.. :\ Maybe I'll try Helional.
    I've also seen that Ocimene is pretty common in the headspace, so I might try Tagetes..
    I didn't use Hedione yet.. It always ruins things for me. I might try Zeppin, though.. And maybe Isoeugenol.

    Are you sure Indole is present in lilies? I haven't seen any mention of it..

    Hmm.. Not sure how to do this without ruining my batch, though :\
    Why Tagettes? Have you smelled Tagettes? Do you think it suitable for your Lily base; if not, then don't use it. There are many oils that contain Ocimene. There is a world of difference between creating a Lily base, that smells good, and attempting to match the head space analysis of a Lily. I would guess it is the former that is desired.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I'm surprised you think para Cresyl Phenylacetate weak; you could always add more. Have you tried para Cresyl Acetate, even stronger though not so floral.
    OMG I can't stand either, they knock my nose out, if ever, I only use them in traces, like you say it is important.

    p.s. Oh yeah indeed Chris: stables! But not the good animal scent but like horse poo cleaned with bleach bleah....

    p.p.s. Nizan: Do you keep do half tests? Like keep the half of formula without and compare with the other half + whatever aromatic you add? It sounds like you keep adding stuff...
    Last edited by Irina; 31st October 2014 at 04:20 PM.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I've stopped adding stuff for now.. I'm doing this in a rush. I know it's not good practice, but I couldn't sleep last night..
    David - well, I tested it now on a strip, and it's close to what I would want, but a bit too food-like.. I want to make the top a bit more interesting.
    Chris - I've tested Helional now.. It's kind of too smooth.. I'm looking for something more spicy/prickly.. I could try to does iso Eugenol, but it will be tough, as it seems to want to go to a carnation accord right now.. Will also test Rhubofix.
    I will give Indole a try as well..

    Fun fun!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I've put a tiny bit of Phenyl Acetaldehyde.. It didn't do much and I stopped because I was afraid.. It was found in some species of Lilium, though..
    I don't have any Isocyclocitral.. :\ Maybe I'll try Helional.
    I've also seen that Ocimene is pretty common in the headspace, so I might try Tagetes..
    I didn't use Hedione yet.. It always ruins things for me. I might try Zeppin, though.. And maybe Isoeugenol.

    Are you sure Indole is present in lilies? I haven't seen any mention of it..

    Hmm.. Not sure how to do this without ruining my batch, though :\
    Helional wonít give you a harsh green note, but you might try PADMA or Stemone or cis-3-Hexenol (Iím pretty sure the last is in the headspace of most lilies)

    I would ignore the ocimene personally and certainly donít think tagetes belongs in a lily fragrance.

    On Indole, it depends on the lily - Madona Lily no, Regale Lily absolutely. For most of the oriental types itís there, though you need some vanilla with those too. When I say itís there Iím making that judgement from smelling an awful lot of lilies over many years, not from looking at GC results so I could be barking up the wrong tree (or bulb) . . . but I donít think so.

    I usually split a batch before adding an ingredient Iím uncertain of and then compare with and without.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

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    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Cest tout!
    Unless something weird happens with the maturation.
    about 0.5% Stemone did the trick. I also added Indole (though only 0.3%) and a touch of Veratraldehyde (which apparently I do have) and of isoEugenyl Acetate..

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    I've been working on trying to get a lily note in a perfume over the weekend, which I was really pleased with at first. It seemed light and floral and rich, and I was very smug. Now, after trying it in various blends, all I'm getting is that very distinctive smell of old flower water, when the flowers have gone over and you're throwing away the skanky, slightly slimy water. My original lily blend was

    - phenylacetaldehyde with 50% PEA, then 10% in PA - 0.11g
    - PCPA @ 5% DPG - 0.06g
    - Aurantiol @10% in PA - 0.04

    I'm feeling a bit depressed.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Quote Originally Posted by FollyFlick View Post
    I've been working on trying to get a lily note in a perfume over the weekend, which I was really pleased with at first. It seemed light and floral and rich, and I was very smug. Now, after trying it in various blends, all I'm getting is that very distinctive smell of old flower water, when the flowers have gone over and you're throwing away the skanky, slightly slimy water. My original lily blend was

    - phenylacetaldehyde with 50% PEA, then 10% in PA - 0.11g
    - PCPA @ 5% DPG - 0.06g
    - Aurantiol @10% in PA - 0.04

    I'm feeling a bit depressed.
    Some thoughts: first Iím not sure what PCPA is but if you mean para-Cresyl Phenyl Acetate then thatís a lot of horse, even at that low dosage. Ditto with the phenyl acetaldehyde which is also very strong. Itís also a particularly reactive aldehyde and itís possible that once itís in a blend with other things the Aurantiol is being deconstructed into hydroxycitronellal and methyl anthranilate with the latter recombining with the PAA - thatís a guess - but it is possible and might explain what you describe.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Formula for Lily (Lys) Accord ?

    Thank you. That all makes sense. I think I need to back off it from a while and do something cheerful with lavender and roses or something like that. I'll try again when I've learned a bit more and am a bit less tired.

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