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  1. #31
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy-j View Post
    What's the problem with simply using the existing "report" button? Never really saw much of a difference berween the purpose of the two.
    If I understood the explanation correctly, the dislike button is for self-regulation; if a post gets enough dislikes, it is automatically hidden without intervention from the moderators.

    The report posts button requires a moderator to actively investigate and weigh the seriousness of the alleged infraction, then possibly consult with other moderators about a possible action. It is more work for the staff.

    Regarding abuse of the dislike button, I imagine that the idea is to set the threshold high enough that a troll or two can't make a member's post disappear; it would take a fairly broadly offensive post to trigger enough dislikes.

    I'm not a mod here, obviously, but I have been a mod on other boards and this is what I think the intention was. Staff, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    That's pretty much my understanding too, zatarain.

    @Ursula - there seems to be plenty of less than optimal behaviour from where I'm sitting.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by zatarain View Post
    If I understood the explanation correctly, the dislike button is for self-regulation; if a post gets enough dislikes, it is automatically hidden without intervention from the moderators.
    Yeah the problem is that that isn't self-regulation. Self-regulation is when people are careful in considering what they post or don't post themselves. That would be the ideal.

    Barring that, I don't like the idea that a few people can gang up on a post (or most likely a poster) and thus prevent me from reading something. If something is truly wrong and offensive, there are ways of getting rid of it already. Why not just use those?

    Apologies if I'm missing something; I tend to be selective about the posts that I read, so maybe I'm not seeing the extent of the problem.

    (and zatarain: I love the signature at the bottom of your post - it's one of my favorite books )

  4. #34
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by zatarain View Post
    If I understood the explanation correctly, the dislike button is for self-regulation; if a post gets enough dislikes, it is automatically hidden without intervention from the moderators.

    The report posts button requires a moderator to actively investigate and weigh the seriousness of the alleged infraction, then possibly consult with other moderators about a possible action. It is more work for the staff.

    Regarding abuse of the dislike button, I imagine that the idea is to set the threshold high enough that a troll or two can't make a member's post disappear; it would take a fairly broadly offensive post to trigger enough dislikes.

    I'm not a mod here, obviously, but I have been a mod on other boards and this is what I think the intention was. Staff, please correct me if I'm wrong.
    refering to it as a "dislike" button is part of the problem. There is a vast difference between disliking a post and objecting to the content of a post. I think if more people understood this, it would work as intendedl

  5. #35
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    If we must have it, perhaps the button could be called "Objectionable Content."



  6. #36
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by 30 Roses View Post
    If we must have it, perhaps the button could be called "Objectionable Content."
    There would still be members going to town just for the sake of mischief. The anonymity invites trolling and mobbing.

    The disagreement should be openly voiced in the next post, quoting the previous post.

    If, and when, the discussion gets too heated, moderators can always mitigate the flow and keep things under control.

    If one gives away too much control to the crowd, one loses control, and the whole thing will be one big mess.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  7. #37

    Default Re: A note on objections

    I don't think the deletions were made automatically before. Some posts remained that had a half dozen or more objections. I posted a thread (it spoke of the opening of a museum exhibit in Washington DC titled Anchorman: The Exhibit and I'm guessing it was viewed as off topic) and it was deleted after two objections. This makes me think the process wasn't automatic at all and the mob wasn't ruling.

    The "report post" button has always been a means to express a perceived need for moderation of some sort in a way that was relatively anonymous. I don't understand how adding to that helps Basenotes.

    I like to think I understand the intent of the thumbs system, but presuming that it will be used as intended is not a good idea.

    In my work, I have relied on the proven efficacy of positive reinforcement as a means of modifying behavior. If the goal of trolls is attention, rewarding the desired replacement behavior (great posts) may be more effective than awarding a thumbs-down (attention). Maybe some kind of gold star can be awarded for posts that receive a certain number of kudos from members

  8. #38
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Positive reinforcement. Yes. It works well in schools.
    But we are here neither in a school setting nor in a work setting. To me this is a party setting. Learn and have fun. So, if some trolls spoil the party, they can be controlled with the Report button, like it was done before.

    Maybe a "gold star" for a lot of Likes is a good idea. Plus a List could be displayed of who has "gold stars" and how many.

    (Over at Parfumo, there is a List of the 100 most active users, according to how many points they have garnered. Parfumo points are earned by actively participating, like submitting new perfumes for the databank, submitting photos of perfume bottles, writing reviews, writing blog articles, participating in forum discussions. Positive reinforcement, yes it works.)
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  9. #39

    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    Positive reinforcement. Yes. It works well in schools.
    But we are here neither in a school setting nor in a work setting ... Positive reinforcement, yes it works.)
    Well then, alrighty, I think.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    That sounds a bit like a popularity contest to me. l think l'd rather do away with the like/object buttons, & use the report button as before.
    "What is this secret connection between the soul, and sea, clouds and perfumes? The soul itself appears to be sea, cloud and perfume..." - from Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by teardrop View Post
    That sounds a bit like a popularity contest to me. l think l'd rather do away with the like/object buttons, & use the report button as before.
    Also think the report button would do just fine by itself.
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals on Basenotes don't warrant or deserve other individuals' acknowledgement or respect.

  12. #42

    Default Re: A note on objections

    I also think the report button is all that's needed. The object button leaves too much for interpretation and feels too casual. It's so easy to press, whether seriously or in jest. If the purpose is really to flag or eliminate truly objectionable content, the report button is all that's needed.

    As far as the "thumbs up" is concerned, I think it's good to have. It eliminates the need to respond "+1" or "This" in threads which are seeking recommendations or advice. A thumbs down option is not necessary, as it would basically be the same thing as an object button--just a reason to anonymously say "I don't like you and your post."

  13. #43

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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Also think the report button would do just fine by itself.
    Agree. I don't want to submit photos of perfume bottles and have people's status determined by stuff like that. And what's the point of a list like Parfumo's "most active users?" What does it mean practically? Prolific posting doesn't necessarily mean helpful or interesting posting, and conversely, some people who don't post often are interesting to read. But because my idea of interesting and helpful may not be the same as anyone else's (and because some people really aren't interested in being interesting or helpful), I don't see the point in giving us more tools to rate or censor posts.

    We sure had a lot of discussion about this type of stuff soon after the move to Huddler, I remember. Again, I don't envy the job of the moderators.

  14. #44
    Basenotes Junkie saminlondon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Also think the report button would do just fine by itself.
    I agree. The object button seems far too abritrary. I'd much rather rely on a real human being to oversee any potentially offensive posts (sorry, mods!).

  15. #45
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by Buysblind View Post
    ...

    As far as the "thumbs up" is concerned, I think it's good to have. It eliminates the need to respond "+1" or "This" in threads which are seeking recommendations or advice. A thumbs down option is not necessary, as it would basically be the same thing as an object button--just a reason to anonymously say "I don't like you and your post."
    I am neither + nor - on the object button. Yes, it will be abused by some, but trolls will be trolls with whatever tools you give them. I don't see it upsetting the conversation too much. I've been on other forums that had "negative reputation", and with comments, and I've saved some of the insults people threw at me; some of them are funny, others weren't, but ultimately it didn't drive me away or turn bloody.

    I agree that the Like or + rep button is good, for the reasons stated; sometimes I want to let a poster know that I like what they said, but I don't have anything to add. No need to bump a thread and trigger people's subscription notifications to say "me, too", but I like to let someone know when I like their post.
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    My take is - the report button alone is fine.
    I just think that the Dislike / Like buttons can be misused as has been said before- to gang up on a person or on a post .
    I'm sorry ..... my faith in some humans - online - is not that great. The Like/ Dislke option could just become a form of 'flaming' .
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  17. #47
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    I'm in agreement with Mimi and others. I would like to see the Object Button stay gone.
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  18. #48

    Default Re: A note on objections

    Lots of posts so I'll summarise my thoughts rather than quoting each bit.

    In terms of positive reinforcement, yes we feel that is a great way to encourage solid contributions - the like button was going to facilitate that.

    The like button was also intended to eliminate the +1 posts as mentioned. Bumping that doesn't further the conversation is not conducive to good flow of conversation on a community such as this.

    The objection button was for posts that were not directly so horrendous as to report them for their vulgarity. It was for posts that the individual felt were tasteless/troll-like in nature. I don't want a community wherein the mods have to step in and "police" every single comment that offends SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE. This was a way to direct the flow of conversation, making it different from the report button which is for breaches of the Code of Conduct and real hardcore, unwanted posts. I like the idea of calling it something to make it clearer what its intended use is... Still evaluating your feedback... Still at the drawing board...


  19. #49
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielleCooper View Post

    The objection button was for posts that were not directly so horrendous as to report them for their vulgarity. It was for posts that the individual felt were tasteless/troll-like in nature. I don't want a community wherein the mods have to step in and "police" every single comment that offends SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE. This was a way to direct the flow of conversation, making it different from the report button which is for breaches of the Code of Conduct and real hardcore, unwanted posts.
    Hello Danielle. It must be very hard to make a judgment on this one, so thanks for considering everyone's comments so carefully.

    All I would add is that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE is almost always going to be offended, but this should not necessarily be a reason to suppress a post. As I see it, it's the mods' task to make an objective assessment as to whether an individual post is objectively inappropriate. There are existing guidelines to cover this, I presume, and existing means by which to report and discourage inappropriate comments (the Report Post button, mods warning posters in the thread itself). What I fear is that a further tool - the objection button - will only have the effect of censoring free speech. It really is open to misuse.

  20. #50

    Default Re: A note on objections

    An anonymous down vote will possibly attract as many trolls as it repels. Why not remove anonymity from the thumbs down button? Then we can identify and discount habitual users. Also, providing selectable options for the thumbs-down might be useful (objectionable content, does not add to the discussion, advertising, in wrong forum etc). Alternatively, it might be possible to add a free-text comment, expanding on the reason (Huddler had something like this).

  21. #51

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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Thanks, Danielle. Good luck with it all.

    Are "+1" posts really a problem?

    Like/Dislike buttons, if they exist at all, should be called Like/Dislike, because that's exactly what it means. And a Dislike button should not have the effect of censorsip. Otherwise, I'm not really bothered about whether we have them or not.

  22. #52

    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by saminlondon View Post
    Hello Danielle. It must be very hard to make a judgment on this one, so thanks for considering everyone's comments so carefully.

    All I would add is that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE is almost always going to be offended, but this should not necessarily be a reason to suppress a post. As I see it, it's the mods' task to make an objective assessment as to whether an individual post is objectively inappropriate.
    Thank you saminlondon. I couldn't agree more! I am very much of the opinion that you can't please all of the people all of the time. The idea was that if SOMEONE turns into some people, it is reasonable to consider it. The mods make a judgement as an individual person and are often on the receiving end of criticism. I wanted to see if we could give some control, and therefore responsibility, for these judgements to the users.

    Hi Marais, I actually like these ideas in terms of expanding the button with options. Something to think about, thank you.

    Hello Kagey, yes the +1 comments are a real block to the flow of conversation. I have had so many complaints and actually have to say I agree.


  23. #53

    Default Re: A note on objections

    in my opinion, a 'like' button is nice, but ultimately useless. But since it's a positive pat on the back, it does no harm. An object button leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If someone has a problem with whatsomeone said, bring it up to a moderator with the long existing 'report a post' button, and let them "moderate".

  24. #54
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    For a while now, there are no Like or Objection buttons, as they are being temporarily suspended.

    Why not leave it like that, and if and when, more controls become necessary, only then bring them back.

    Nobody seems to actually miss them now.
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

  25. #55

    Default Re: A note on objections

    I like 'Like' - it's a quick +1 endorsement.

    Please just make 'Object' accountable, name attached, just like the 'Like' button.

    Simple.

  26. #56
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    For a while now, there are no Like or Objection buttons, as they are being temporarily suspended.

    Why not leave it like that, and if and when, more controls become necessary, only then bring them back.

    Nobody seems to actually miss them now.
    I think this is a good suggestion. People seem to be more interested in getting other features returned that are missing.
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals on Basenotes don't warrant or deserve other individuals' acknowledgement or respect.

  27. #57

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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielleCooper View Post
    Hello Kagey, yes the +1 comments are a real block to the flow of conversation. I have had so many complaints and actually have to say I agree.
    That's fair. I didn't realize that. Thanks for clarifying!

  28. #58

    Default Re: A note on objections

    How do I object to this thread ?

  29. #59
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursula View Post
    ...
    Nobody seems to actually miss them now.
    Several people have asked for the Like button to be restored, or said they think it is useful, in this thread.
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

  30. #60
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    Default Re: A note on objections

    In this thread we get the input via conversation/suggestions - how about a POLL ?
    There are no answers, only choices. (Stanislav Lem)

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