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  1. #1
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    Default Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Which of the concentrations of these scents are the ones that Ernest Beaux and Henri Robert actually composed? Or at least the closest formula? From what I've gathered it is the eau de toilettes of both perfumes, and looking at the notes on fragrantica, at least with no 19, the notes of both concentrations are vastly different. I've also seen both eau de parfums being credited to Jacques Polges. So what is the official version?

    And if the eau de parfums are indeed Polges', why do they take precedence over the compositions done by the original creators? In other words, why is the iconic bottle used for Polges' work and not for Beaux and Robert's? In fact I bought both eau de parfums SOLELY because of the bottle. Of course I wanted to know both scents because of their historical value, but I specifically chose those two for the beautiful bottles thinking they were all the same scents just with different concentration, as opposed to actually two different formulas, and I must say I am disappointed. The no 5 is gorgeous on some days with that arctic ice note and other times it smells of rotten sausages and urine and it is NOT me, and no 19 doesn't last at all and it just feels like a mess. I know the skeleton of two masterpieces is there, I can feel it even if the end result is utterly disappointing, the blue print is there but the execution is terrible. I can't wait to finish the bottles so that I can try the eau de toilettes but I would really want to know the official word on this because I don't want to support Jacques Polges work. I want to keep wearing these scents but I want to wear what Beaux and Robert created, or the closest thing to it, not what other guy created and he is using the label of the other two's product to sell his rather dubious compositions.

    So what is the official version?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Historically the pure parfum was always the original version. The eau de toilette for no.5 was composed some years after as a more affordable alternative.

    Unfortunately, none of the versions of either no. 5 or no.19 are going to be anywhere near what they were intended to smell like, due to ingredient availability/restrictions/cost. What I smelt in the 80s is quite different from what I smell now, for both 5 and 19, and I'm sure even back then no.5 had changed from what it was when it was first composed.

    I'm not sure I understand your objection to Jacques Polges, he was after all, Chanel's official perfumer as well, and the eau de parfum is just as valid a formulation as the eau de toilette.

    If you want to test the other versions, I think the EDT is easily available in stores, while the parfum is more or less available as a tester in some stores in Europe/Asia, but not so much in the US. So depending on where you are, you might easily test all formulations. There are also online stores that will sell samples of either concentration.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    As chypre said, the parfum version of no.5 is closest to the original 1921 composition by Ernest Beaux. The EDP and EDT are more recent constructions. The parfum itself has also undergone a reformulation as recently as around 2008-2009. I'm not as sure about no.19 but would expect the same is true of that composition as well - i.e. the parfum version is the original composition.

    As far as I am aware it is the no. 5 parfum bottle that has been featured in almost all print ads and commercials for no.5; from the 1950s Marilyn Monroe ads to the most recent ones with Brad Pitt. The parfum bottle is historically an iconic bottle, so I'm not sure what you mean by the EDP bottle, or Jacques Polges' work, taking precedence. A lot of consumers certainly buy the EDP over the parfum as it is more affordable and available; this is to be expected I would think; especially since most people are not aware of the history of and differences in the parfum, EDT, and EDP formulations. Even Luca Turin said that he did not appreciate the differences in these compositions until he set out to review them in The Guide.

    I completely understand your wanting to experience the real thing though, i.e. the Ernest Beaux and Henri Robert formulations. As chypre said, even the original parfum compositions are not what they once were, so if your wallet allows, I would buy a few drops of vintage extrait from somewhere like Surrender to Chance or the Perfumed Court, or seek out bottles of vintage extrait on ebay. Vintage bottles of No.5 extrait can often actually be found online cheaper than current parfum, if you know what you are doing and can differentiate real, legit stuff from fakes. Twice since the summer I have seen 7.5 ml bottles from the 1960s and 1970s, sealed and in their original cellophane wrap, sell at auction for less that $90. My current bottle of 7.5 ml parfum was $120 at The Bay.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    The others have explained already. In the past, there was the parfum, and then perhaps an eau (which we would call edt) to complement it (though it was originally advertised as a way to refresh the smell). Edps are more recent creatures, when brands switched from expensive perfumes to something more people could buy.

    In the case of No 5, the parfum is the closest, and second would be the edt. Note however that the parfum is perhaps the crispest of the lot, while the edp is the darker, heavier. However, as the others were saying, also the parfum has undergone changes due to material restrictions. First the nitromusks went out decades ago, then in 2010 jasmine was restricted, so No 5 is now less floral (and I think the civet went out with the jasmine).

    I know No 19 less.My understanding is that the drydown used to be a leather, while it is now a lighter fresher thing. But the top should be similar.

    cacio

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by hedonist222 View Post
    The forums are dead....
    what does this mean?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chypre View Post
    Historically the pure parfum was always the original version. The eau de toilette for no.5 was composed some years after as a more affordable alternative.

    Unfortunately, none of the versions of either no. 5 or no.19 are going to be anywhere near what they were intended to smell like, due to ingredient availability/restrictions/cost. What I smelt in the 80s is quite different from what I smell now, for both 5 and 19, and I'm sure even back then no.5 had changed from what it was when it was first composed.

    I'm not sure I understand your objection to Jacques Polges, he was after all, Chanel's official perfumer as well, and the eau de parfum is just as valid a formulation as the eau de toilette.

    If you want to test the other versions, I think the EDT is easily available in stores, while the parfum is more or less available as a tester in some stores in Europe/Asia, but not so much in the US. So depending on where you are, you might easily test all formulations. There are also online stores that will sell samples of either concentration.
    Well, according to perfumeintelligence.com they specifically credit the no 5 eau de parfum as a 1980's Jacques Polges creation, and they list it separately from the eau de toilette which they say was issued in the 70's but don't say a name and they don't qualify it as a re orchestration, which is what the eau de parfum is.

    And yes he is the Chanel perfumer but his job is to be a mere custodian of no 5 and no 19, he shouldn't have the right to alter them, that is why he has created his own fragrances for Chanel, but instead of leaving the other fragrances alone it seems he has re orchestrated them to be his.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Can't add much except to say that todays No 19 edt smells more like the vintage parfum than the current edp does. I'm always surprised by the huge difference between edp and edt in both of these.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagey View Post
    Can't add much except to say that todays No 19 edt smells more like the vintage parfum than the current edp does. I'm always surprised by the huge difference between edp and edt in both of these.
    Why do you think that is? And which is better? I am very disappointed by the 19 edp. I don't even know if it is a green fragrance. All I can feel is a paltry iris.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by UneFleur View Post

    - - - Updated - - -


    And yes he is the Chanel perfumer but his job is to be a mere custodian of no 5 and no 19, he shouldn't have the right to alter them, that is why he has created his own fragrances for Chanel, but instead of leaving the other fragrances alone it seems he has re orchestrated them to be his.
    Actually, I'd say he was probably asked to update/reorchestrate no.5 by Chanel. A perfumer is always working under the direction of the company they get their instructions from. And I think he did a great job of modernizing no.5. After that, which concentration you prefer is a matter of personal taste, which is why I think you should try and test all of them: the Parfum, the Eau de Toilette, (you already have the Eau de Parfum)... And the Sensual Elixir is also a good (and faithful) version of no.5.


    Adding: I'm wondering if your objection to these perfumes are actually due to the ingredient substitutions that have been made in the past few years, which in that case is due to commercial/regulatory reasons, and not a fault of the perfumer's. As Wingie said above, perhaps you should seek out a vintage version, before ingredient restrictions changed both no.5 and no.19.
    Last edited by chypre; 11th November 2013 at 05:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by chypre View Post
    Actually, I'd say he was probably asked to update/reorchestrate no.5 by Chanel. A perfumer is always working under the direction of the company they get their instructions from. And I think he did a great job of modernizing no.5. After that, which concentration you prefer is a matter of personal taste, which is why I think you should try and test all of them: the Parfum, the Eau de Toilette, (you already have the Eau de Parfum)... And the Sensual Elixir is also a good (and faithful) version of no.5.


    Adding: I'm wondering if your objection to these perfumes are actually due to the ingredient substitutions that have been made in the past few years, which in that case is due to commercial/regulatory reasons, and not a fault of the perfumer's. As Wingie said above, perhaps you should seek out a vintage version, before ingredient restrictions changed both no.5 and no.19.
    I bought vintages months ago and they were damaged.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by UneFleur View Post
    I bought vintages months ago and they were damaged.
    That's the risk that comes with buying vintage, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Quote Originally Posted by Wingie View Post
    That's the risk that comes with buying vintage, unfortunately.
    Not a risk worth taking in my opinion-

  12. #12

    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    Welcome, Fleur!

    I think Chanel No. 19 had more leather in the 1970s.

    I would venture to say that all modern fragrances have been reworked, regardless of claims that they have not. Raw materials are not the same now.
    "No sweet perfume ever tortured me more than this." Desert Rose by Sting and Cheb Mami, Album 1999.

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    Default Re: Chanel no 5 and no 19 question

    No 5 has changed a great deal . Little by little but it has changed a lot from when I first started wearing it years ago . I think my biggest issues are the longevity ( in practically all the concentrations ) and also less neroli in the extrait.
    This is a personal opinion only and others may feel different but to me the extrait is less luminous than years ago . I tried hard to think why - going over it in my mind - I think it contains less neroli and less aldehydes ( in extrait ) as well .Anyhow, who knows.

    No .19 EDP is a different creature from even the 1990s . It is a beautiful powdery iris-rose on my skin in the latest version. I must re -test the EDT. The No .19 extrait which I last tried about 2-3 years ago was marvellous though.
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