Interesting - thank you gecko214.
Once the missing Huddler data returns I truly do hope to update the Suppliers Sticky!
I hope I am not violating any rules by posting this news about a supplier that I think will be of interest to the DIY community: www.proxisante.com (after some lobbying on my part) will be getting some Atlantic cedar heart: "Fractionation and blending of the most woody, leathery, floral and ambery selected fractions of Cedarwood Atlas essential oil. Odour: Woody, leather, ambery, floral and fruity."
And possibly some other interesting things including santalol nat: "Various extraction processes (including rectification) have been used to remove the most aldehydic phenolic notes contained in the traditional Australian santalum spicatum essential oil. Odour: Very clean, lactonic product which can be used as such to reconstitute an Indian sandalwood compound." this will depend on price though -- although if there is a lot of interest I imagine we could convince him to carry it even if a bit pricey -- there has been so much interest in "real" sandalwood lately.
I also got his "eclat de ciste", "labdasur" and patchouli heart a couple of months ago, all of which were truly wonderful. I have no financial interest here of course, just trying to put people together -- good Europe-based suppliers are rare, and I think the fact his website is only in French is limiting too, and of course I want him to do well so he will continue to carry hard to get things I want!
Interesting - thank you gecko214.
Once the missing Huddler data returns I truly do hope to update the Suppliers Sticky!
Last edited by nemenator; 16th November 2013 at 01:10 PM.
Thanks for posting this. I have the Labdasur and the patchouli coeur and am very happy with them, so it's great to hear they're getting more of this kind of thing.
I had a chat with him today again and he is just establishing a relationship with Robertet, but it's hard for him to buy the minimum quantities per SKU as a small business, not knowing what will sell and in what quantities (and things like cedar will be masses of product), so I hope we can all support him so he can keep carrying more hard to find products.
Proxisante could soon be the best place for small quantities of naturals including natural aromachemicals and isolates at this rate. Even without Robertet they are well placed just reselling from Diffusions-Aromatiques.
Anyone else in the UK or France up for a Group Buy, Robertet or otherwise?
By the way, what does the term coeur mean in combination with patchouli or cedar? I know the translation of course, but what does it say about the material? Merci!
I recently sniffed some of Laboratoire Monique-Rémy's Vetivert Coeur : a sort of topped and tailed vetiver which was quite lovely.
Chandler Burr spoke a little about this last week, but perhaps one of the professionals could explain the process.
Phillipe at Proxisante confirmed to me yesterday he has ordered 10 KG each of Guaiac heart, Texas Cedar heart, Natural Cedrol, and Altlantic Cedar Heart (all from Robertet). We should expect these to be available near the end of the year (except the Atlantic cedar heart which i think he ordered first and may be available in December.) The fractional sandalwood product is out of stock. He also has some current bud Co2 he says is wonderful, from Albert Vieille, which will be online for purchase in about 3 days.
Graphite to answer your question, I think the "heart" is a product obtained using a fractional distillation process whereby the more "noble" elements of a natural are concentrated and the terpy or off notes removed. At least that's my understanding, maybe others can offer more info?
Thank you, gandhajala for the helpful Tauer link! Will see later what Chandler Burr has to say about it :-)
Thank you for the explanation, gecko214. So it's similar to what I read about Ylang Ylang, which comes in extra supérieure (first 15 minutes), extra (the following hour of distillation, considered to be the finest quality), I (second hour), II (until the sixth hour), III (until the end of the 20 hour process) and complète which is the rest of it all and complete (not distilled in fractions; what a little accent can do:-).
So the ordinary patchouli EO is then likely a complete distillation and the coeur would be something like extra (in Ylang terms), I guess.
I was wearing a drop of Ylang Ylang extra tonight. It is deeper and somehow calmer than the II version I own.
Yes, a Coeur version can be either a fraction that is redistilled to pick out pieces you want, or a fraction made in one distillation and made according to the timetable suggested. Like Vetiver is made in a rough or first distillation all over the world, then sent distilled to France, and they then redistill it to get what they want out of it in pieces.
Certainly would love to get some of this Heart Vetiver from IFF...!
Thank you very much Gecko and Paul for your explanations. Much appreciated.
Proxisante sent me a mail a couple days ago saying he is also ordering cardamon heart, frankincense wood, and vetiver heart (I don't know if it is the IFF one Paul) thought folks would be interested to know, as these last two at least, are highly sought after.
Thanks for the note, gecko214. Just placed an order. Do you know their santal albal bio?
"Frankincense wood" - is that Robertet's "Bois d'Encens" olibanum/cedarwood co-extraction? That would be nice to try...
I advised him to take some Bois d'Encens cause I know the demand is huge here. This is frankincense co-extracted with cedarwood.
All comes from Robertet, Vetiver Coeur too.
Normaly there will be also some Cardamom Coeur, Cedarwood Coeur and other great stuffs. Be attentive.
I own his santal albal bio and for me it's very good. It smells a bit less than australian sandalwood but it's finer and less heavy than australian.
Philippe is a really nice person, very professional, always attentive to sell the best quality ever.
Last edited by Encens; 1st December 2013 at 10:13 AM.
Phillipe very kindly send me samples of the cardamom NHS and the Atlas coeur which I received today. The cardamom is true to the description at Robertet's site "Captured volatiles of Elletaria cardamomum seeds from Guatemala on a vegetable fat carrier obtained from fractionation of coprah oil. Odour: Fresh, pungent, spicy, truly remisniscent of green cardamom seeds." Smells like when you crush the fresh pods in your hand -- without the terpy (I guess that's the terms?) top that makes the EO and CO2 hard to use in an accord in any significant amount (for me at least). The atlas cedar coeur smells like atlas cedarwood minus the urine, which is a big plus in my book.
Phillipe has received everything and it is now on the website for sale. Be quick, as it seems to be moving fast -- the Texas cedar coeur is already sold out (and I missed it, curses!)
Thanks for the info. gecko214 - it does look interesting!
Just read this thread. First of all congratulations to Proxisante, this is not only a good thing for France but Europe as well, the more the merrier. I shall have to raise my game I suspect. I did have a look but afraid my French is not good. I took the subject at school but for all the wrong reasons – I fancied the teacher, only to find out this person was teaching German!
I am curious though Gecko with all this chaps Texas Cedar Coeur selling out instantly do you think I have reason to be worried? Adam
They don't take paypal
hahaha, made me laugh lpp. Think I'll need to up my game though, I have 5 wives, 28 children, 6 grandchildren and 3 gold fish to feed!
Btw Princess can I ask for a favour - noticed the suggested supplier thread, whilst most grateful to be included I don't have a link like the rest, is that possible maybe.
Merry Christmas to everyone reading this as well. Adam
Watch those goldfish, Adam - they breed like mice
So sorry - I thought that I'd added you to the sticky - will go & do that now!
Edit - sorry, see what u meant now - done!
When the Huddler data returns, the thread will be properly re-posted.
Last edited by lpp; 19th December 2013 at 09:25 AM.
Adam I don't think you need to worry too much. Europe has what, 350 million people? Yet we don't have nearly as many online essential oil suppliers as the US. I think there's room for a few more even... Although I cannot imagine how he sold 5 Kgs of Texas Couer in 4 days. That's 50 100 gram flacons...
Phillipe's competitive advantage is his rare specialties, his organic certified products and the fact he has no minimum order. You have the advantage of a massive range of naturals, fantastic ACs, and an English language website (and of course your poetic waxing... )
But I'm glad your watching; a little competition among suppliers is always healthy, for the customer at least...
It's good practice reading the Proxisante website, gecko214 - I'm still reading!
I'm still no sure why shipping to Israel from Europe costs 4 times more.. (Except for
Bristol Botanicals, who manage giving good costs on that).. Is Europe that rich that
people can afford those astronomical shipping costs?
One highlight for me so far was the cardamome NHS. What a lovely top note! And as a newbee I am certainly blown away by the flower absolues. Especially the tuberose. <3
You mean that shipping within Europe is much cheaper?
Gecko - Last time I counted I made it 352.7 million people. As for the USA regardless of how big it is if it had real stand out companies I suspect we would know about them – regarding specialist re-sellers of naturals I think White Lotus is probably as good as it gets in the USA in which case a serious argument could be made that Europe is already far further in front regarding specialist re-sellers of naturals. Just because lots of online suppliers exist does not mean they bring anything new to the table, many peddle obvious wares and tares. As for synthetics I think Americas PA has the rights on that…..for now.
Phillipe will no doubt be reading this, so again congratulations on your successes, I sincerely mean that. I thank BaseNotes for putting you on my radar as well and I look forward to going head to head with you next year, like you say Gecko, this can only be a good thing for Europe.
Nizan – based on this thread and fact I have to up my game I’ll re-address shipping myself, another upside for you I suspect regardless of who you buy from in Europe is you won’t pay vat, downside however is I’d imagine shipping will be a fair bit pricier.
Ipp – Thanks for updating - and I wish they would breed like mice, have a beautiful 3 tier roman pond, way too much space for so few gold fish – they are very large though. Do you have any idea of when the huddler info will be back btw - and am I allowed to update the shared Pell Wall/Hermitage thread regarding new product additions as and when they happen - best to ask. Adam
Congrats! I'm glad more good materials are making their way into perfumers hands; I admit that I'm jealous but nonetheless I'm glad and happy for you guys. We have some good naturals in the US but compared to some of the stuff I see on sites abroad and posts by people on this board, I think the comparison is pretty pale. We have a LOT of suppliers but not all of them know what they are doing and the quality isn't always there, not to mention the fact that the selection is... very mediocre. Out of the big 3-4 suppliers White Lotus DOES get some interesting specialties in occasionally but they seem to be the only ones who get much that is out of the ordinary aside from a thing here or there at other places. PA does have a great selection but I've already found myself bored with their selections, they don't seem to get new materials very often.
Justin E. Beasley
Adam - even without vat, is still costs much less to order from the US. This has been bothering me
for some time - just because it doesn't really make sense. One should be able to get across Europe
in trains, and then shipping from Greece could be very cheap. Plain weird.
I would be really happy to order from you, as you're the only site who offers both chems and interesting
naturals. I already use your site pretty often for reference, and also coz I REALLY like the pictures
Adam - as I was unable to find the thread in that part of the Huddler archive which is on site, it would probably be best for you or Chris to contact Grant about re-instating it.
We can't access all areas!
Nizan - shipping within EEC is not too awful, but to/from outside it is a bit mad these days.
Anyone would think that they were trying to discourage trade!
As Adam says - there's no shortage of great run-of-the-mill stuff available in Europe & anything increasing the selection available to small purchasers is great for all concerned.
JEBeasley – I’m curious, what would have to happen for you to lean towards buying more from Europe than those in the USA – what is it at present that stops you doing this. Intrigued to understand what processes you go through when making your decisions. Also can I ask who are the other big USA suppliers in your opinion.
Nizan- Cheers man that means a lot. Let’s do this a different way – with you in charge of making this decision for all those outside of Europe – what does the minimum order value need to fall down to in order for you to be happy? If I put it back to 100 could that work for you. Any other concerns, gripes – feel free to share.
lpp – I know Chris is really busy right now but as I don’t know Grant from Adam I will make Chris aware today of this and ask if he can mention this to Grant.
Also I read Bshells comments on the sticky thread. Whilst I think a lot is hard to implement for the re-seller it raises some excellent questions and makes me wonder if the supplier sticky thread could be improved – going beyond a link based on approval from a few people here in the year 1999. I was thinking about a BaseNotes league table – and the table is updated weekly – The idea is to raise standards/competition amongst suppliers resulting in end users getting a better deal. A whole host of areas of performance could be rated by those here to define the suppliers overall weekly rating - suppliers could even promote the thread. The idea is basic yes but it could be really developed by those here and if done properly in so much that one or two people don’t get all the power – like the NPG as an example – then I think it would be nothing but a good thing.
Interesting ideas, thanks, Adam, although I'm not sure whether members here do sufficient purchasing between them to implement or even need a league table!
My intention is to update the stickies & the suppliers' one was very outdated indeed and probably of little help to many as it stood, which is why I have started adding some info. - more links are welcome, particularly for equipment/bottle suppliers which is an area that many members seem to query.
A London bottle supplier was mentioned but the website doesn't appear to exist so it has not been included.
It would probably be a good idea for you guys to put your heads together & for Chris to then discuss with Grant after the holidays!
Last edited by lpp; 19th December 2013 at 09:13 PM.
Adam - usually my happiness depends on more immediate things I've
sent you an email detailing my recent buying patterns. Hope you find it
The only suppliers I buy naturals from are White Lotus, Eden Botanicals, Liberty Naturals, & sometimes Camden Gray. For aroma chems I go to Perfumers Apprentice, Creating Perfume & Good Scents. I have also purchased naturals from Scents of earth and Mountain Rose amongst a variety of other places here and there.
I'm on the west coast USA so any west coast based business I buy from here, which is most of who I buy from, is going to ship it to me substantially cheaper and faster than buying from over seas.
Justin E. Beasley
Plus you presumably have taxes to pay at your end?
I'd love to buy some of the Steele stuff occasionally, but the whole shipping/importing thing is such a hassle these days.
Justin E. Beasley
Nizan, Gecko, JEBeasly – Cheers for the input and this thread.
Nizan - Right or wrong I don’t class Bristol Botanicals as competition, so don't monitor them. My arch rival for Europe right now is German founded.
However this company Gecko mentions has me really concerned, I have to acknowledge I could have a real rival breathing down my neck in 2014 so I am going to do a few things now as a result of seeing this thread – I hope this Phillipe chap would see this as a compliment - he has got me all scared - and should he counter my moves I will be ready and we could get a nice bit of healthy competition underway.
First of all – the rtet materials – I will order everyone of them tomorrow that Proxisante carries, next I will offer all in a larger variety of sizes – notably smaller size options and I will offer all at lower prices – after all these are really one and the same regardless of who you buy from in this instance – only difference is maybe the batch but either way the materials will be consistent. Next I will buy more of these materials than Proxisante offers. So to sum up I will offer more in smaller sizes at cheaper prices and I will carry a wider offering. I will be interested to see if Phillipe counters this. Just to crank up the pressure and raise my own game I will get another 30 organics added to my offering my mid-January. Those will be ordered tomorrow as well.
Next I hear you Nizan and JEBeasley – so I will reduce minimum order for orders out of Europe from 200GBP to 75GBP by tomorrow afternoon. And I will review this in two months. And JEBeasley whilst I know that alone is not enough to sway you I will be setting up HermitageoilsUSA in the first halve of 2014 so it gives you another option plus you could expect speedy delivery times. As for your PA comments – I will see me and Chris increase our offering of synthetics substantially by mid to late January.
Ipp – this is why I would love that thread of mine and Chris’s back as I feel I’m hijacking what is rightfully about Proxisante.
You take your work seriously.. I was I was this serious with my phd
I don't see Adam as hijacking this thread. He and Philippe both offer similar products except Adam's cost about 30% more. But Adam is exceptionally good at costly customer service and I expect Philippe, being French, would just shrug instead. Let's have Robertet by all means (and their isolates, distilled and otherwise please), but let's also have Albertvielle and their specialities including Blackcurrant. And Adam please don't go to the USA- you are loved and adored enough here.
I got such an arsenic response from Proxisante today when I inquired about
shipping, that I couldn't interact with people around me for 30 minutes.
Hopefully it's just a misunderstanding. Seems those EU shipping costs are
really affecting business.
Last edited by Nizan; 20th December 2013 at 11:01 AM.
How much does shipping to Israel actually cost, Nizan? I paid EUR 16.15 (within EU) for nine small bottles.
On the Texas Cedar Coeur, which I had pre-ordered, I got an email today saying the oil was too fresh with off notes from the distillation and so it wasn't sent.
Renegade - I think around 25 Euro..
But some funky things happened with the site - first I was locked out of my
account, and now it seems Israel was taken off the country list. If the guy
is as upset as it sounded, I won't be surprised he just took Israel off the list.
I could be mistaken though. Hopefully he'll answer my email.
Have just signed up & it does appear to be absent from the list at present, Nizan.
Yes, apparently there's a big misunderstanding. Hope it will work out
I have not been awake long, I check in on this thread and jees, it’s all going on isn’t it!!
The whole idea of a forum like this is for people to talk openly right, sometimes suppliers get trashed as a result. I have been put bang to rights here on a few threads and had my disagreements with a fair few as well but we always kiss, make up and move on. I actually like the personalities you get here, it enables good conversation on a subject we all love.
Holding grudges is pointless, totally and utterly pointless, that bad feeling just manifests, feeds and creates problems that do not need to exist. So I say to Phillipe do the right thing because this is your thread, this is all about you, your moment, and how awesome your business is. Better still join BN and get involved with your thread, clearly many adore you here so prove your worth to these people and all those watching.
On a different note – got most quotes for rtet – it looks like I’m going forward with more than I thought – offering will be three times greater than Proxisante and due to Nizan's comments shipping for those outside of Europe is now down from 200GBP to 75GBP - reviewed in two months time. Adam
To be fair, it could be that the guy's under alot of stress after finding out that the Texas cedar coeur has to be sent back to Robertet. Imagine having to email everyone who had pre-ordered it with disappointing news, especially when it's not his fault. The upside is that it shows to everyone that he knows how to spot any defects and that he's only willing to send his customers the very best. Christmas is also the most important time for business and it can be very stressful trying to process so many orders. If he had also just read of Adam's intentions, it may not have exactly helped the situation. That's just business at the end of the day but it may not have been the best time to read such news. Although, many continental Europeans will prefer to order closer to home because of the shipping, so Proxisante will have plenty of business either way. I'm sure that the guy will get everything straightened out with Robertet soon enough, let's just hope that he has a chance to relax at some point this Christmas.
Last edited by Pears; 21st December 2013 at 03:27 AM.
Pears you really are a proper English gent, I wish I was more like you and less of a big bad wolf. But I am what I am.
However you do not ban an entire country due to a disagreement with one individual from that country – come on, that’s nearly as lame as my Christmas jokes. Plus I have not even started playing with Phillipe yet. Forgive my lack of compassion in this instance for him but business equals pressure and s**t happens, you handle it or you don’t – simple as that.
But how about this, me trying to be a nice guy, if Phillipe is reading and you are feeling a little under the cosh I have a little present to cheer you up – it’s some relaxing music just for you – put your headphones on to better appreciate it.
Phillipe confirmed to me he had to send back the Cedre Texas Coeur because when he got it, as others have now reported, it was too fresh and still had the distillation notes in it, so he sent it back (and shame on Robertet for selling it, I am really surprised). His catching this is a good thing, even if it is frustrating for those of us who were waiting for it; as Pears says, it is reassuring he has this level of quality control. If I got something from the mighty Robertet, I would think there was something wrong with my nose before I thought there was something wrong with their product, so i say hats off to him. I don't think he will participate in BN though as he does not have enough English. I know he does look occasionally since I told him I would let people know about his offerings; I would be surprised if he is following this discussion closely. He is a quite small business as I understand it, but he has an established customer base for his existing line in France, so I imagine he will be fine, even with Hermitage (or others) competing (madly). I wish him, and all good suppliers well, and I hope he does not regret ordering these Robertet specialties I kind of cajoled him into carrying. I am sure I will continue to buy from him, just as I will from Adam and from Jan and others.
Also, let me just be clear about why I started this post: I feel it is useful to members here to know when hard to find things or things we have been pining over, become available, particularly from sources we don't all know about (e.g. German or French suppliers). I do not endorse them in any way other than what I say in my posts.
Not sure what is going on with the shipping to Israel; he told me he charges Colissimo (French parcel post) rates for all shipments and so whatever is being charged for Israel is what it would cost for any package to be sent by traceable French parcel post from France to Israel (Euro 39.85 according to their site -- is this not what he is charging?). There is a 1 KG minimum though, I think, for overseas Colissimo, so the smaller the order, the higher the relative shipping cost.
Well to defend Proxisante around shipping to different countries, I've experienced that my website seems to have a mind of it's own - it seems to not allow people to buy in some countries even though I've set it differently. Or to stop selling to countries because of some shipping cost issue thingy... It's a bit puzzling... and seems to work well for awhile after someone sets it up again, and then die later...
So Nizan, don't think it's an intentional snub, it could easily just be gremlins...
Adam, you're not the big, bad wolf. Business is business, as they say. Does business make us less gentlemanly at times? Yes but if it's a choice between that and putting food on the table....
However, it's presumptuous to say that he banned shipping to an entire country because of a disagreement with Nizan. It may simply have been removed from the shipping options because he wasn't aware of the difficulties of shipping to Israel, until Nizan raised them. Or as Paul suggested, it could be a technical glitch.
If he couldn't handle pressure then he wouldn't be in business but everyone has their limits. I'm sure that we've all ranted at people when under pressure and then later wished that we hadn't. It's not very professional but we're all human at the end of the day. I'm not sure that it's particularly professional for you to comment on the matter either, Adam. However, it's tricky to get the balance right when you're representing a business on a forum, as it's a very informal means of conversing that encourages us to engage on a personal level. I consider you to be a friend, so I'm trying to remain balanced here.
Last edited by Pears; 20th December 2013 at 04:54 PM.
Guys, I feel awful, just so awful about all this. So I have just put something on my homepage to personally say sorry to Phillipe and hello to White Lotus and their upcoming plans.
I’m sorry to all here, really I am, I feel so bad, but I smell blood so it’s time to pounce on my prey, it’s in my nature.
I wouldn't worry about it too much, Adam. It just shows that you're human, like the rest of us. I'm sure that Phillipe will appreciate the gesture, if he ever reads this thread.
Adam, why does the homepage of your site say BYBYPROXI?
Last edited by Pears; 20th December 2013 at 05:43 PM.
Adam - that's not terribly kind - the poor guy's in a pickle.
Hope it works out, Phillipe - and sorry you had a problem.
Paul - there was some problem when he inquired about shipping to Israel, so
he took it off. I didn't understand his reply well, but that's what I got from it.
Hopefully it'll be fixed. I really feel bad for my part in this predicament.
Gecko - actually last night when I checked a package it was 25 Euros to
Israel. All in all, it's not that expensive. Though USPS really make it hard to
compete with small packages.
Adam - I like it when people can talk openly and out of good intentions.
It's like a new way of making business, but maybe it's a bit before its time..
On the other hand, you're showing teeth now..